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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinzai View Post
    Most recent example: DRG trashing ST Life 3-0 at the start of the Iron Squid grand finals by just countering his builds.
    I never claimed that it wasnt possible to counter strategies or builds, I said that micro is more important than macro at an extremely high skill level. The reason for this is that macro is not complicated. You can expect a professional player to know all possible build orders, the correct counters and timing etc. In the end it comes down to mechanical skill, something which can vary a lot even between professionals who play for 10 hours per day over several years because it is inherently more difficult than just memorizing strategies.
    Quote Originally Posted by icylock View Post
    Gamon spends more time of his knees and back than haris pilton...

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Enkidulgaa View Post
    I never claimed that it wasnt possible to counter strategies or builds, I said that micro is more important than macro at an extremely high skill level. The reason for this is that macro is not complicated. You can expect a professional player to know all possible build orders, the correct counters and timing etc. In the end it comes down to mechanical skill, something which can vary a lot even between professionals who play for 10 hours per day over several years because it is inherently more difficult than just memorizing strategies.
    Again, any professional SC2 player will tell you that macro is without a doubt, the most important aspect. The micro they put to use to screw with their opponents macro the vast majority of the time. Messing with the other person's build order/general macro can win the game. Singular engagements only tend to be clutch if it's caused a huge piece of macro/minerals and/or gas to be useless at a key point.

    And also, I would say that macro is extremely complicated when it comes down to timings and predictive building, not to mention building layouts/arrangements as active defenses and such.

    Edit: And this is going way off the topic of MOBAs now.

  3. #123
    I like PvP and I normally don't like multiplayer FPS games, so MOBAs were the first thing that came to mind. I'm terrible at multitasking so I don't want to try SC2 or any other similar RTS. There isn't a whole lot of multimanaging things in Dota 2, so I like it a lot.

  4. #124
    There are some cornerstones to successful games, here they are.

    1. Accessibility (free to play, downloadable, fast to get into a game, don't require a good computer)
    2. Easy to learn, hard to master.
    3. Current state of the genre. (Current popular games).

    The last point is very confusing but is also very important. There are plenty of examples where games are released just at the wrong time compared to others its competing too.

  5. #125
    OP, your "facts" are a lie.
    1. At least in Dota 2, slow pace matches means you're in low skilled level bracket (no suprise here as a newbie).
    2. Teamfights are 40% items, last hits etc. for carry but there's definitely room to beat it with skill, preparation, timing, positioning and good decisions.
    3. It's not about knowledge at all in "pro gaming" every trash on the scene knows perfectly all about game, which takes around 100 hours at most for normal people, it's actually about knowledge "how this particular game plays", to give an example, predicting where enemy headed when he started missing. And those things in point 2. There's a lot more room to grow in skill curve, in Q3 or Unreal if you make faster headshots than your opponent, you won. In Dota, you can outsmart when you can't outskill. And let's not forget that it's fun to watch (very crucial for pro gaming and their sponsors) because of commentators. There's no really anything to watch than "next headshot" and commentator yelling "19-0!" in fast paced FPS. For me, the one and only good FPS for pro gaming is Tribes:Ascend, because it takes more skill to predict and hit where you want instead "hit where you want".
    Last edited by Valium104; 2013-02-02 at 03:55 PM.

  6. #126
    Legendary! Tommo's Avatar
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    You dont have to be playing meepo to have skill ffs, try playing a utility hero with 6 activatables or someone who needs impecable positioning. Meepo isnt particularly hard if you learn to blink dagger into poof, he just takes a fast hand and a quick mind, along with some practise.

    The dota genre is a light version of SC, but its by no means devoid of skill.

  7. #127
    I would say that ARTS genre blend the elements of RTS aand RPG into the genre quite well. It took of the part of RTS game that casual hate like multitasking and macro off and put in RPG element which was originally WC3's aspect then expanded on RPG aspects with more complex items. This made ARTS posses enough depth for people to keep playing for long time and accessible enough because it doesn't demand much of mechanical skill from you.

    I played original Dota a lot in the past along with WC3 but I don't really play it anymore. I'm more of a original RTS with micro,macro,multitasking guy. It just feels more satisfy for me to outmacro my opponents and roll them with unending stream of marines and tanks from a ton of barracks and 3 facs in TvZ. Terran forever!!!.

  8. #128
    Do they have any modes that doesnt involve jungling?
    Because that's probably the only part I dont get really, if it means the part where you head into middle and start smacking npcs for certain buffs... some kind of boring interruption to otherwise a bit interesting gamestyle. Feels a bit retarded to me, no offence just personal opinion. I would probably have tried more smite games if it wasnt for that, and as far as I understand it both lol, dota and those work the same.
    Bloodline champion was way more interesting to me, real arena battles where you were fighting eachother, a bit tricky yea but way more appealing... however unfortunately that game was too hard for players to make it popular, bet that a similar version but with tab targeting or something would be the best thing ever happening.
    Your lord is under attack! Your lord is under attack!

  9. #129
    Warchief barackopala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tea View Post
    Do they have any modes that doesnt involve jungling?
    Because that's probably the only part I dont get really, if it means the part where you head into middle and start smacking npcs for certain buffs... some kind of boring interruption to otherwise a bit interesting gamestyle. Feels a bit retarded to me, no offence just personal opinion. I would probably have tried more smite games if it wasnt for that, and as far as I understand it both lol, dota and those work the same.
    Bloodline champion was way more interesting to me, real arena battles where you were fighting eachother, a bit tricky yea but way more appealing... however unfortunately that game was too hard for players to make it popular, bet that a similar version but with tab targeting or something would be the best thing ever happening.
    You ought to try ARAM on LoL then, there's a map designed for that on the custom game list, and it's going to get some attention for queue matching (datamined info)

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Valium104 View Post
    1. At least in Dota 2, slow pace matches means you're in low skilled level bracket (no suprise here as a newbie).
    Slow paced matches are because the game in general is slow paced.

    Quote Originally Posted by Valium104 View Post
    3. It's not about knowledge at all in "pro gaming" every trash on the scene knows perfectly all about game, which takes around 100 hours at most for normal people, it's actually about knowledge "how this particular game plays", to give an example, predicting where enemy headed when he started missing. And those things in point 2. There's a lot more room to grow in skill curve, in Q3 or Unreal if you make faster headshots than your opponent, you won. In Dota, you can outsmart when you can't outskill. For me, the one and only good FPS for pro gaming is Tribes:Ascend, because it takes more skill to predict and hit where you want instead "hit where you want".
    Uh this tells me you never played Q3.
    "Loss of blood... My only weakness!"
    ~ Warlord Khan, Magicka

    Anyway, if you don't already see where I'm going with this, allow me to spell it out: the only meaningful MMORPG "endgame" -- i.e., something novel to do after the progression process is over -- is that of the sandbox.

  11. #131
    I am Murloc! Grading's Avatar
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    I skipped pretty much everything after page 1, but I'd just like to mention one thing...

    If MOBA games seem too "slow-paced", I get the feeling people only want "FAST ACTION PEWPEWPEW KICKASS EXPLOSION BOOM"-kinda games.
    Kinda makes me glad that "slow-paced" games are so popular.

  12. #132
    Its the community that scared me away. Its always either "omg killsteal" or "omg why didnt you assist"

  13. #133
    Mechagnome
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    Its the community that scared me away. Its always either "omg killsteal" or "omg why didnt you assist"
    killstealing doesnt exist when playing with people who can use 29% of their brain, but why the fuck didn't you assist?

  14. #134
    Idk honestly. Neither I know why FPS are such popular. I heavily dislike both kind of games.

    The only games that i like for pvp tho are fighting games and rts. No gear, no items, just skill involved. Rest is just meh.

  15. #135
    Stood in the Fire Raminax's Avatar
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    Well, haven't read through the entire thread, but just chipping in with my opinion, sorry if it's a boring repeat for some!

    In addition to other things claimed, such as accessibility and what not, I believe that MOBAs have e-sport appeal because they're fairly static. Yes, new champions and features are added, some occasional metagame-shift happens, but looking at the basics, MOBA games have been the same deal since they were first invented: 5 heroes/champions against another 5 of them aiming to destroy the enemy nexus/ancient/whatever. This makes it a lot easier to build up a lasting commitment which ends up creating professionals, fans, commentators and what not. It can be compared with the FPS and RTS genres, too. It's kind of like a lot of the big sports such as football/soccer, hockey and such; they've been largely unchanged since they first came to light, so it was simpler to make a big deal of them.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Nomzter View Post
    killstealing doesnt exist when playing with people who can use 29% of their brain, but why the fuck didn't you assist?
    Because it is the same guy that insults me when I "killsteal"

  17. #137
    free2play low skill req

    wanna see real skill games back in esports like Quake

  18. #138
    I don't like them either for several reasons:
    1) The community seems to be more elitist than in any other game, even WoW (yes, I said it)
    2) Considering how low the actual gaming skill required is, they have pretty steep learning curve because of the sheer amount of information a new player has to absorb in order to be at least half decent.
    3) I don't like the fact that single players are being worshiped when it's mostly team work that matters in the end. I dare to say a single SC2 pro player could handle controlling at least half of a MOBA team and be as good as the MOBA pros...
    4) It's boring as hell to watch for someone not involved in the game (see 2). First 5 minutes nothing happens, then there's bunch of guys walking together in forest for another 10 minutes and after that there are only mass fights in which you have no chance of telling what's actually happening unless you play the game a lot yourself.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    Because it is the same guy that insults me when I "killsteal"
    Thats when you follow them around the rest of the match stealing all their kills.

  20. #140
    The Lightbringer Bigbazz's Avatar
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    What the hell does "MOBA" stand for?

    Surely being a knowledge based game means it is heavily based on using that knowledge for strategy? I can't speak much because I've not really been pulled into these kind of games, but there must be some element of skill to it, even if that isnt the same type of skill you might see in an FPS game.
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