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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    What the hell does "MOBA" stand for?
    Multiplayer online battle arena I think
    Its a bullshit term that was invented by Riot to differentiate them from Dota because previously these games have just been called Dotalikes or Dotaclones
    Quote Originally Posted by icylock View Post
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  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Enkidulgaa View Post
    Multiplayer online battle arena I think
    Its a bullshit term that was invented by Riot to differentiate them from Dota because previously these games have just been called Dotalikes or Dotaclones
    Why do you think it a bullshit term, and FPS for instance isn't? [hint don't forget what games were used to be called before the term fps was introduced ]

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Daraiki View Post
    Why do you think it a bullshit term, and FPS for instance isn't? [hint don't forget what games were used to be called before the term fps was introduced ]
    Because "multiplayer online battle arena" can be used to describe virtually every game where you play against each other.
    SC2 is a MOBA, CS is a moba, online chess is a MOBA
    Quote Originally Posted by icylock View Post
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  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Enkidulgaa View Post
    Because "multiplayer online battle arena" can be used to describe virtually every game where you play against each other.
    SC2 is a MOBA, CS is a moba, online chess is a MOBA
    So can every other non-turn based game be called an RTS including CS,Dota,WoW etc etc etc....

    I agree MOBA or ARTS are not suitable terms but they are still better than using Dota,Dotalike,Dotacopy

  5. #145
    Old God Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enkidulgaa View Post
    Because "multiplayer online battle arena" can be used to describe virtually every game where you play against each other.
    SC2 is a MOBA, CS is a moba, online chess is a MOBA
    Can you think of an equally catchy, short, yet descriptive acronym for it? Since you are so quick to judge, yet clearly don't understand how marketing or branding works.

    Would you prefer the Multiplayer Online Team Versus Team Role Playing Action Combat Adventure Game? (MOTVTRPACAG)
    There's a reason why acronyms are 3-4 letters and not garbage like above.
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  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by Daraiki View Post
    So can every other non-turn based game be called an RTS including CS,Dota,WoW etc etc etc....

    I agree MOBA or ARTS are not suitable terms but they are still better than using Dota,Dotalike,Dotacopy
    CS may have real time strategy elements but its most important aspect is that its played in first person and involves aming and shooting guns, therefore it would be more approriate to call it an FPS. WoW is primarily built around character progression which is why its an RPG. Dota has the top down view and resource management, but you control only 1 or sometimes a few units and it lacks base building, therefore it cant be called a pure RTS
    The most correct term would probably be ARTS, or taking the history of the genre into account Dotalike, since it was the most popular game of the genre when it was still new

    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    Can you think of an equally catchy, short, yet descriptive acronym for it? Since you are so quick to judge, yet clearly don't understand how marketing or branding works.

    Would you prefer the Multiplayer Online Team Versus Team Role Playing Action Combat Adventure Game? (MOTVTRPACAG)
    There's a reason why acronyms are 3-4 letters and not garbage like above.
    See above
    Quote Originally Posted by icylock View Post
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  7. #147
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    You make well thought out points and your opinion (which you are 100% free to have) is well stated, however. You are wrong in several of your assumptions.

    I'm a GM for Heroes of Newerth, so what I'm about to say comes from 3+ years of playing HoN in addition to 3+ years of Dota 1, 6 months of LoL, and 2-3 months of dota 2.

    For ENTRY LEVEL players, knowledge is more important than skill. If you don't know what heroes do what and what items to buy, you can be the most reactive, intelligent player in the world but you will still lose. That being said, as soon as you cross out of the 'noob' stage, you will quickly see that skill is incredibly important. Personally, even with all my experience (and I can literally tell you all 4+ abilities on every single of the 110+ heroes in HoN off the top of my head), I'm still only better than 75% of the players in the game. Skill plays a vital role in MOBA games, things like knowing when and HOW to juke (running from an enemy taking creative paths through the forest usually to obscure their vision around trees and objects), how to place 'skill shot' abilities (abilities that are NOT guaranteed to hit, and are avoidable with enough reaction time and skill), and having the experience to know where the enemies are on the map without being able to see them (although I suppose that's partially knowledge, skill plays a more vital role).

    Anyhow, imho, MOBA games are deserving of their place in the PvP scene because they reward teamwork more than other game types because if your team messes up, you're stuck in a losing game for 20-30 minutes at times, so you all have to work together in a coordinated fashion. In addition, with hundreds of heros with abilities that synergize in vastly different ways, you not only need the knowledge of who does what (as you said above) but also need to have the skill to avoid or 'game' the various dangers that these abilities represent, just as 'knowing' a boss fight in WoW doesn't mean you'll win it the first time. You need to practice it and gain the skills required to overcome the challenges that boss represents, the same is true of MOBA games, but the 'boss' is a living breathing person, who wants to kill you.
    "When you do things right, people won't be sure you have done anything at all."

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  8. #148
    Old God Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enkidulgaa View Post
    The most correct term would probably be ARTS

    See above
    No. Action Real Time Strategy could be any game as well. Arenas in wow, pvp in any game, shooters, hide and go seek. See your previous point as to why this name is also invalid. Also, it's using an actual word that is associated with something completely different and is usually a marketing faux pas.

    Additionally, DOTA is not a genre term, it's a brand name. As such it's not going to apply to any other MOBA out there unless it is a direct copy. If you aren't defending ancients, it's linguistically wrong to call it DOTA. You don't call every hamburger joint McDonalds. You don't call every pizza place Papa Johns.
    Last edited by Kelimbror; 2013-02-04 at 08:48 PM.
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  9. #149
    I am Murloc! Tommo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    Additionally, DOTA is not a genre term, it's a brand name.
    Yeah but calling the genre "dota" is the closest you'll ever get to a decent representation. Dota is an instantly recognisable term to people who know even the most basic things about the genre. You know what kind of game you'll be playing if its dota-esque.

  10. #150
    Old God Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tommo View Post
    Yeah but calling the genre "dota" is the closest you'll ever get to a decent representation. Dota is an instantly recognisable term to people who know even the most basic things about the genre. You know what kind of game you'll be playing if its dota-esque.
    I'm willing to wager more people know what a MOBA is these days. We can't just be little nostalgic hipsters anymore. Kids playing LoL never heard of DOTA. I'm sure they know about it, but they are not going to associate it like people who played the original DOTA do. Genres should never be defined by niche, nostalgic concepts that don't speak to present day.

    It's very rare when a product can brand itself to replace the actual thing that it is, like Kleenex for tissue. It's practically impossible for a video game, especially when acronyms actually stand for words. You don't hear people calling every MMO World of Warcraft. Same principle here.
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  11. #151
    I am Murloc! Tommo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    I'm willing to wager more people know what a MOBA is these days. We can't just be little nostalgic hipsters anymore. Kids playing LoL never heard of DOTA. I'm sure they know about it, but they are not going to associate it like people who played the original DOTA do. Genres should never be defined by niche, nostalgic concepts that don't speak to present day.

    It's very rare when a product can brand itself to replace the actual thing that it is, like Kleenex for tissue. It's practically impossible for a video game, especially when acronyms actually stand for words. You don't hear people calling every MMO World of Warcraft. Same principle here.
    Ide honestly class that as a problem, Riot threw money at the kids to make them call the genre MOBA when its such a shitty term, as a result valve named dota an ARTS which is closer but still not quite there. So now you have to pick and choose your words depending on what forum your on, lest ye feel the flames of the flamers.

  12. #152
    Old God Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tommo View Post
    Ide honestly class that as a problem, Riot threw money at the kids to make them call the genre MOBA when its such a shitty term, as a result valve named dota an ARTS which is closer but still not quite there. So now you have to pick and choose your words depending on what forum your on, lest ye feel the flames of the flamers.
    Well I can agree on that part, but as much as I love Valve they've only helped contribute to the shitty nature of the behind the scenes of this thing. I honestly don't blame Riot for trying to distinguish their game as an actual genre and not attribute it to DOTA. Valve sure didn't want to credit Blizzard for anything, so why would someone want to give credit to Valve?

    Basically it's the highschool drama of video games. Unfortunately that results in awkward situations where we're having to discuss the merits of what to actually call these things. I see RTS as very clearly having resource, unit, and building management. Something that really isn't present in MOBA's. This is why I refuse to accept ARTS as a proper term, because it's trying to be overly intellectual.

    We all know the real point of MOBA's are to battle other players on a map. Sure there's an objective and there are very high levels of strategy that are involved, but that doesn't make the basic composition very different. You kill the other players in a defined space. (battle arena) Trying to lump it into RTS is just wrong to me.
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  13. #153
    DDRTS --> dumbed down real time strategy?
    All in favor?

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Daraiki View Post
    DDRTS --> dumbed down real time strategy?
    All in favor?
    Emphasizing "action" is already a tell in the games industry that the game is dumbed down :P
    Quote Originally Posted by icylock View Post
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  15. #155
    I find it interesting that you don't think knowledge/experience, predictive capability & being effective team members are part of overall gaming skill.

    Personally I too don't see the appeal. I only tried LoL and didn't really enjoy the experience. It was about 20mins of farming worthless minions while hiding behind your minions and tower-humping, followed actual pvp with slightly less tower humping.

  16. #156
    Moderator Remilia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enkidulgaa View Post
    Multiplayer online battle arena I think
    Its a bullshit term that was invented by Riot to differentiate them from Dota because previously these games have just been called Dotalikes or Dotaclones
    I still call em strife games. It confuses people nicely.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by poogle View Post
    I find it interesting that you don't think knowledge/experience, predictive capability & being effective team members are part of overall gaming skill.
    Oh they are definitely skills. Some people cant walk without tripping over their feet every 5 minutes, so I guess walking takes some amount of skill as well.
    Its just that the things you named are not really hard to learn. If you have at least half a brain and the stamina to play 1k games you can easily get into the top 1% of LoL. I watched tons of live streams and tournaments back when I played LoL and what the pro players are doing is stuff that every 2k elo player should be able to do. The hardest part is to play as a team, but the mechanical skill required for every individual player is lower than in RTS/FPS.
    I also consider Dota to be slightly harder than LoL because due to the sheer amount of mechanics and strategies it becomes kinda like chess, which is easy in theory since there is always an optimal move but hard in practice because there are billions of possible moves and the player has to identify the right one.
    Quote Originally Posted by icylock View Post
    Gamon spends more time of his knees and back than haris pilton...

  18. #158
    Never played or watched LoL so don't know how that works but you can play 20k games in dota and you still aren't guaranteed to be at the top. When you don't fully understand the game, you can think that you are able to do this and that like the good players do but you can't when you're on the spot. There's a skill cap for everyone.
    The good thing about MOBA (or whatever the people above call it) is it's a combination of different things from personal skill, teamwork and coordination to mind games and overall heroes strategy. The ability to position and know when to fight and when to run is not as easy as it looks. When you watch games without fog and know where everything is, it's easy to point those things out. But when you're in the dark, it gets much more interesting.

  19. #159
    Herald of the Titans Varyk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slaughty8 View Post
    If Chess is a sport (sitting and moving your hand) then computer games can be a sport too. By playing games, stressing yourself, moving hands fast, you are actually burning more callories than by playing chess or cards.
    Chess isn't a sport either.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Varyk View Post
    Chess isn't a sport either.
    Chess is considered a sport. It is not considered an athletic sport.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess#B...2.80.931945.29

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess#Competitive_play

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