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  1. #1

    Question [Help] Am I Doing it Right?

    Hello Everyone,
    First off, I am very new to the Rogue community.
    I am a MMO veteran, i've been progression raiding for the past 15 years in EQ & WoW.
    But 98% of my WoW career has been as a tank, and just recently I have permantently switch my main to a Rogue.

    So I am looking for feedback from more experienced players.
    Ive been to all the normal sites, EJ, Icyveins, Nox, MMO Champ, and read up on my Class/Spec.
    Im at the point now where im trying to fine tune or min/max everything as best possible.

    Here's where im at so far tell me what you think:

    Quick Facts - WoW Armory
    Race: Goblin
    Main Spec: Assassination
    Off Spec: Combat
    Prof1: Engineering
    Prof2: Enchanting
    Recent WoLogs:
    Imperial Vizier Zor'lok 10N | Blade Lord Ta'yak 10N| Garalon 10N | Wind Lord Mel'jarak 10N
    Shadowcraft: Currently Recommends

    Notes/Questions
    • I currently used Reforgelite Addon to do my reforge for Assassination Spec, it seems to be a bit off from Shadow Crafts recomendations. Im not yet sure which of the two are correct? Is Shaowcraft the end all be all?
    • I always try to pre-pot, and have flask up.
    • Currently following the proper single/multiple rotations you find on EJ/MMOCHAMP/Noxxic etc.
    • I do not yet have a throw macro, or use any ranged abilities.. is that a fail? If so what should I be doign?
    • I use Skull Flower's UI, with Tell me when and a few other Addons.
    • I use a Razer Naga Mouse

    Contact
    Live: Epictankz HD Gaming
    Web: The Collective
    BTAG: EpicDPS#1443


    Thanks for taking the time to read this!
    Let me know if you need any other information.
    Last edited by Epictankz; 2013-01-17 at 05:27 PM.

  2. #2
    1) Don't know what Reforgelite is saying to you, but capping expertise as assassination is a no-go (basically because envenom buff still triggers even after a dodge). Probably you're using default values - try to plug into it the values shadowcraft says and you should see similar results. Refogelite isn't an EPs calculator, but only a reforger; really useful when you switch spec, but for the calculations, use Shadowcraft. It has also a reforger built inside, so you will have everything in one place.

    2) Basic raiding tactics , nothing fancy.

    3) Rotations are petty much standard, there is still debate on some aspects like aoe. Avoid Noxxic all the time, that site is full of false informations. If you want, there's also a guide in my sig.

    4) Ranged abiliies aren't meant for a melee. Shuriken Throw is only a gimmick move (while it seems to become more effective in 5.2); a "ranged rotation" is something that doesn't exist.

    5) You don't need much - some trackers for the few timers we have to manage (SnD, Rupture, Envenom) and for the uptime of CDs. All the rest is about your preference you can raid easily without DBM, really (altough it offers some good utilities especially for raid leaders).

    6) You can use a simple 2 buttons mouse - it won't have any impact. It's all about your familiarity with keybinds; for example, i find the Naga extremely uncomfortable so i've opted for a Lachesis. Less mouse buttons, more fluidity and precision (not like you're going to use them in wow but whatever).

    Hope it helps!

  3. #3
    I find using Reforgerade and just grabbing the import string from ShadowC is easier. Your reforges should match ShadowC anyways, so a different reforge calc is unnecessary.

    Your logs look fine. You're not doing anything majorly wrong as far as I can tell. Any optimizations you can make will be small and are not easily seen in logs.

  4. #4
    thanks for the great info guys.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    1) Don't know what Reforgelite is saying to you, but capping expertise as assassination is a no-go.
    You're wrong.

  6. #6
    So i followed the reforge from shadowcraft and now my hit is 7.55% and expertise is 2.59%

    This goes against everything ive read.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Mazius View Post
    You're wrong.
    No he's right. Well expertise can vary but in the majority of situations its lower than crit and haste.

    Quote Originally Posted by Epictankz View Post
    So i followed the reforge from shadowcraft and now my hit is 7.55% and expertise is 2.59%

    This goes against everything ive read.
    Reading EJ is probably you're safest bet. There are many discussions on there relating to expertise all of them come to the same conclusions that expertise is low (around where crit and haste are). You will find you lose a little energy when you miss the attack but you retain your combo points and have the envenom buff. Make sure you refrain from using the procc'd dispatch from the front as best as possible, but don't let it go to waste.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Epictankz View Post
    So i followed the reforge from shadowcraft and now my hit is 7.55% and expertise is 2.59%

    This goes against everything ive read.
    Capping expertise is not a DPS increase, but if you find tracking everything difficult, it is not a great loss to cap expertise, as its value should be near that of crit, the second-highest secondary without a realistic cap. If it's "just not working for you" you're not looking at losing 5% damage or anything radical like that from capping it, but it is, at all gear levels I've seen, a loss. If you use the same gear to play combat without reforging/regemming, DO cap expertise.

  9. #9
    Epic! OneSent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    1) Don't know what Reforgelite is saying to you, but capping expertise as assassination is a no-go
    Quote Originally Posted by theherecy View Post
    No he's right. Well expertise can vary but in the majority of situations its lower than crit and haste.
    If this were the case, then why is it that I can't find a single high-end rogue that isn't at or near the expertise cap as assassination?

    Now granted, they aren't reforging into expertise, but they are not allowing themselves to reforge out of it, below the cap either. The numbers and the math may be there to support not capping expertise, but whenever I see the overwhelming majority doing something different, it makes me wonder why?

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by OneSent View Post
    If this were the case, then why is it that I can't find a single high-end rogue that isn't at or near the expertise cap as assassination?

    Now granted, they aren't reforging into expertise, but they are not allowing themselves to reforge out of it, below the cap either. The numbers and the math may be there to support not capping expertise, but whenever I see the overwhelming majority doing something different, it makes me wonder why?
    You should check again, there are various reasons.

    1) the other stat is higher, e.g 1000 crit 800 exp (probably more advantageous to go crit-> mastery)
    2) too much hit means you wanna reforge hit -> mastery in the event of a hit/exp piece.


    My armory demonstrates the 1st scenario, other than that every expertise is reforged out of:

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...erecy/advanced

  11. #11
    You should look at my rogue. JK. Got some upgrades and now I'm basically exp capped...

    I hope I'm considered highendish...

  12. #12
    My quick 2cp about Mutilate & expertise cap issue.
    Like it was mentioned, it is dps loss but hardly significant.

    On my own gear (average ilvl ~495): ShadowCraft reforge would end up with ~2-3% dodge chance for ... whopping 50 dps increase.
    Just for comparison - using 750 Valor Points to upgrade any of T14 set item gets me ~200-300 dps increase.

    However, NOT having expertise cap may result dodge-spree when you least need it (burst phases, adds, etc).
    For example, Sparks on Elegon encounter - where 1-2 dodges in a row may be matter of having extra spark round or not.

    For me, +50 dps on sustained Patchwerk fight does not offset the risk of losing 100-200k damage to unlucky dodges on important short burn phase.
    Also, I personally just hate dodged abilities

    ---
    Bottom line is: Shadowcraft is tool - a very good one - but its modeling capabilities do not take into account special phases and conditions
    Last edited by Dharenna; 2013-01-17 at 05:07 AM.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Dharenna View Post
    My quick 2cp about Mutilate & expertise cap issue.
    Like it was mentioned, it is dps loss but hardly significant.

    On my own gear (average ilvl ~495): ShadowCraft reforge would end up with ~2-3% dodge chance for ... whopping 50 dps increase.
    Just for comparison - using 750 Valor Points to upgrade any of T14 set item gets me ~200-300 dps increase.

    However, NOT having expertise cap may result dodge-spree when you least need it (burst phases, adds, etc).
    For example, Sparks on Elegon encounter - where 1-2 dodges in a row may be matter of having extra spark round or not.

    For me, +50 dps on sustained Patchwerk fight does not offset the risk of losing 100-200k damage to unlucky dodges on important short burn phase.
    Also, I personally just hate dodged abilities

    ---
    Bottom line is: Shadowcraft is tool - a very good one - but its modeling capabilities do not take into account special phases and conditions
    I understand what you're saying. Consistency is important, but you could also draw the argument that all that extra crit or haste instead of expertise in those burn phases can give a nice DPS increase.

    As you pointed out it really doesn't make too much difference, whether you go exp or crit/haste. The average DPS change really doesn't justify the headaches thinking about it Rogues DPS doesn't vary too much, there are far more proc-dependant classes

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by theherecy View Post
    As you pointed out it really doesn't make too much difference, whether you go exp or crit/haste. The average DPS change really doesn't justify the headaches thinking about it Rogues DPS doesn't vary too much, there are far more proc-dependant classes
    Exactly. The potential gain of 50dps (on my example) has like 3x less impact than 1 sec more melee time on boss.
    Its purely scientific matter - and if difference is so tiny, smooth play with expertise cap (or near cap) wins on actual game encounters.
    Last edited by Dharenna; 2013-01-17 at 07:13 AM.

  15. #15
    Thanks again for the replies.

    From all of this I feel i need to get a deeper understanding about the base stats for a rogue and what they really mean.
    I have a general understanding, but knowing the cause / effect of having slighly different values for certain things, i do not yet fully understand.

    Another question.... I see some macros have /start attack built into the. I do not understand the reason for this? I start out first in stealth and being my rotation. which in my mind starts my attacking?

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Epictankz View Post
    Thanks again for the replies.

    From all of this I feel i need to get a deeper understanding about the base stats for a rogue and what they really mean.
    I have a general understanding, but knowing the cause / effect of having slighly different values for certain things, i do not yet fully understand.

    Another question.... I see some macros have /start attack built into the. I do not understand the reason for this? I start out first in stealth and being my rotation. which in my mind starts my attacking?
    Target switching, sometimes you dump all your energy into 1 mob and then go for the next one. You want to be attacking immediately, 3 options:
    1) mutilate - costs too much energy
    2) click the mob - impossible on wind lord
    3) macro it - loses nothing keep spamming 1

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by theherecy View Post
    Target switching, sometimes you dump all your energy into 1 mob and then go for the next one. You want to be attacking immediately, 3 options:
    1) mutilate - costs too much energy
    2) click the mob - impossible on wind lord
    3) macro it - loses nothing keep spamming 1
    Crap I know exactly what you mean, as sometimes when switching targets i do not have enough energy to do a mutilate or anything, so at times im not even attack.. thats a fail.... going to fix that when i get home from work.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Epictankz View Post
    Crap I know exactly what you mean, as sometimes when switching targets i do not have enough energy to do a mutilate or anything, so at times im not even attack.. thats a fail.... going to fix that when i get home from work.
    Well I should clarify, it's enabled by default under interface -> combat. Test it on a dummy, you should be able to perform you're rotation normally and one and upon walking to another continue auto attacking. So I think this is an old command/for maximum control.

  19. #19
    Legendary! Ryme's Avatar
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    OK, here's my quick break down for pure min maxing:

    Race: Change to pandaren or undead for maximum benefit, pandaren will edge out ahead in throughput, but undead has a non-zero chance of saving your life which is something to consider.

    Professions: change enchanting to blacksmithing, this will only get better with patches

    Your enenvom and SnD uptimes seem good to OK, a bit behind, but not drastically.

    Reforgelite is only as good as what you tell it to be, it is a theoretical dps gain to not cap expertise, but in practise it is usually a good idea to go ahead and cap it. Shadowcraft is a great resource, but is not perfect by any means.

    A throw macro will ofc help, but don't feel like a bad player if you don't have one. It really won't make that much of a difference.

    If you're still unsettled on UI, I would heavily recommend RealUI without doubt the best UI I've played with.
    I am the lucid dream
    Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh


  20. #20
    The Patient Mutix's Avatar
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    Ryme, just realised your on the same server as me. Small world!

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