I the idea behind 25-mans

[Sarac]

How is it logical that harder bosses would need less people?

It isn't...but it's dangerous to say anything wrong in the thread.

[Espe]

That statement is still entirely true about current 25man raiding.

Its absurdly easier than 10 man at the moment, especially for DPS.

The next tier needs to be tuned about as hard as 10 man was this tier and quite a bit harder than 25 man was this tier.

Exactly this.

If you actually read the quote you can see that, though it may have been in response to a question about LFR it obviously applies to all 25m raiding. They also have a large number of other benefits, an easier time gearing up players and multiple battle rezes among many others.

[SherbertLand]

You don't like the idea of progression guilds eh?

[Hakto]

Exactly this.

If you actually read the quote you can see that, though it may have been in response to a question about LFR it obviously applies to all 25m raiding. They also have a large number of other benefits, an easier time gearing up players and multiple battle rezes among many others.

take your blinkered view elsewhere, taking someone's statement about LFR and then saying it obviously applies to 25 man heroic progression is one of the biggest leaps of logic I've seen in some time, please keep your own biased agenda out of this.

Emphasising and bolding opinion does not make it fact.

[evokanu]

take your blinkered view elsewhere, taking someone's statement about LFR and then saying it obviously applies to 25 man heroic progression is one of the biggest leaps of logic I've seen in some time, please keep your own biased agenda out of this.

Emphasising and bolding opinion does not make it fact.

Don't bother arguing with Espe, its not worth the effort trying to point out how his views is full of holes.

[checking facts]

I... I just noticed I skipped the word "hate" on the thread's title. please forgive me, everyone

[Granyala]

why? because they make me feel worthless.

you need 2.5 times as many people to beat the same guy as 10 man.

A little twist:

On 25man the boss is at it's normal strength and uses all it's abilities.
10 heroes wouldn't stand a chance.

So: for 10man raiding the boss gets weakened. Some mechanics even changed/simplified. (3 Dogs in 10m N)

I like to see the boss in it's original form, not some watered down version that hits like a wet noodle, so 10 people can defeat it too.

There you go: I tried to make my reasoning as unreasonable and presumptuous as yours. Hope I succeeded.

BTW in 40m LFR, most computers would just go: *poof* ^^

Its absurdly easier than 10 man at the moment, especially for DPS.

Hmm..
10: Do DPS, move out at bad stuff and gather for the mean AE so healers can group heal.
25: Do DPS, move out at bad stuff and gather for the mean AE so healers can group heal.

What's so hard about 10m?

BTW a little math?
Windbomb: trigger chance per player: 10%. Instantly wipes the raid.
90% = 0,9 is the chance that one player does NOT trigger a Bomb.

10m: 0.9^10 = 0,34867 = 35% to not trigger and wipe.
25m: 0,9^25 = 0,07178 = 7% to not trigger and wipe.

Add to that the same size of the room for 25 and 10s, making it much more crowded in 25m.
Now what was so hard again about 10m? Right nothing. It's instagib mechanics like these that make 10m look easy.

[checking facts]

On 25man the boss is at it's normal strength and uses all it's abilities.
10 heroes wouldn't stand a chance.

source? it may very well be that 10-man is normal strength while 25-man is boss on roids.

[Talen]

that way the game would feel more logic

Logical?

Perhaps.

Harder in 10s for the same rewards?
Having to bench more and more players every tiem you increase in difficulty?

Bad ideas.

EJL

[Granyala]

source? it may very well be that 10-man is normal strength while 25-man is boss on roids.

Simple: 25man was there before 10man. 10m was added later to make raiding more flexible and accessible by cutting down on logistics, like finding new players. It also may be that they pushed it so far because many people can't raid 25m anymore because of their bad computers. (Lets just say raiding with 3-6 FPS != fun *glares at Ultraxion and Madness*)

I would probably be 10m right now if I hadn't gotten a bit of cash for writing my Diploma which enabled me to upgrade my computer.

The steroid-user would be the Heroic version in either difficulty while LFR is the couch potato.

[Vakna]

It is not physically possible to create a boss encounter that does not change at all in relation to the amount of people fighting it.

In your proposed scenario this is likely how it would turn out;

The 25 man "normal mode" would be average difficulty and unchanged from current 25 man normal modes.
The 10 man "heroic mode" would be numerically impossible due to enrage timers and other mechanics that a 25 man raid includes.

Not a very well thought out idea.

[checking facts]

Simple: 25man was there before 10man. 10m was added later to make raiding more flexible and accessible by cutting down on logistics, like finding new players. It also may be that they pushed it so far because many people can't raid 25m anymore because of their bad computers. (Lets just say raiding with 3-6 FPS != fun *glares at Ultraxion and Madness*)

I would probably be 10m right now if I hadn't gotten a bit of cash for writing my Diploma which enabled me to upgrade my computer.

The steroid-user would be the Heroic version in either difficulty while LFR is the couch potato.

actually, originally most of the available instances were 10-man raids, onyxia and molten core were 40-man and BWS was 15-man. 25-man was first introduced in BC, at the same time as karazhan, a 10-man raid. on WotLK, they made separate 10 and 25 man versions of the same places, but for some reason the 25-man version was harder even though there were more people fighting. that's what I call "lolgic".

so, no. 10-mans existed years before the first 25-man raid.

[Granyala]

Not a very well thought out idea.

There's an even more retarded aspect to his Idea:

What if 25m normal is too easy for a group. Said group would be FORCED to ditch 15 of their raiders to be able to enjoy the challenge of a heroic boss encounter just so that HE can feel good in his 10m is "superawesomeandtotallyeliteall25mansareworthlessnoobs" vision.

Ermm...

[checking facts]

It is not physically possible to create a boss encounter that does not change at all in relation to the amount of people fighting it.

In your proposed scenario this is likely how it would turn out;

The 25 man "normal mode" would be average difficulty and unchanged from current 25 man normal modes.
The 10 man "heroic mode" would be numerically impossible due to enrage timers and other mechanics that a 25 man raid includes.

Not a very well thought out idea.

I said "bosses have the same amount of health in all modes. other stats may vary;". enrage times could be larger. fights could be longer. but health is the only numeric data we see about the boss, and it's very weird to see the boss "healthy" or "sick" depending on which button you pressed on the user interface.

---------- Post added 2013-02-03 at 02:33 PM ----------

There's an even more retarded aspect to his Idea:

What if 25m normal is too easy for a group. Said group would be FORCED to ditch 15 of their raiders to be able to enjoy the challenge of a heroic boss encounter just so that HE can feel good in his 10m is "superawesomeandtotallyeliteall25mansareworthlessnoobs" vision.

Ermm...

from those 15, they could make a new 10-man group. the other 5 would find 5 other new-to-heroics people and make a new group.

[Feindy]

thats the most fucking retarded thing i've heard today

[det]

if I were WoW's lead game designer, I'd do it like this:

• bosses have the same amount of health in all modes. other stats may vary;
• raid finder is 40 man, for an army of not-so-skilled random unknown foot soldiers;
• normal mode is 25 man, for a big group of skilled adventurers;
• heroic mode is 10 man, for a tight group of extremely powerful heroes;

that way the game would feel more logic

I suppose that is why you are not lead designer or wouldn't stay lead designer for a long time. You kinda want to design your encounters and the game so that it appeals to as many people as possible.

As for making the game feel more logic..hum..fire from your fingers and flying on mythical beasts. Undead and talking cows?

[checking facts]

also, I understand you like 25 mans, and I've already said it wouldn't work to do this on WoW now, because people already got used to "25-mans are leet". but why are you so aggressive? can't we talk about this in a civil manner?

[Granyala]

so, no. 10-mans existed years before the first 25-man raid.

You're cute.... Soo predictable. I knew you would twist my words out of context like that.
Lets be adults for the moment and use a bit of reason, shall we?

In Vanilla there were no multiple raid modes.
In BC there weren't either, but 25were born. 10m were SEPERATE and UNIQUE dungeons which were not high end. High end was 25 even in Tier 4.

So back in the day 25m was the real thing.
Come Wotlk they introduced the difficulty modes. 10m were weakened 25s with lots of altered / removed mechanics.
(exception: Sarth 3D which was undertuned on 25 and much harder on 10)
Come cata, blizzard catered to all the little 10m raiders that were whining and wanting the same epixx and difficulty as 25man.

So yeah: 10m originally was an adaption of 25m.

Today: We don't know Blizzards design process.
We cannot say if they create the raid on 10 and scale up or create the raid on 25 and scale down. Personally I think they do the latter, because it's always easier to remove / nerf stuff that to add stuff.

from those 15, they could make a new 10-man group. the other 5 would find 5 other new-to-heroics people and make a new group.

ROFL... now we know you just play for the epics. Why would I want to kick people from my guild that I LIKE PLAYING with just to not be bored and be able to go HC? Also no those 15 can't make a new group, there's something called "tanks" and there won't be enough of them.

Pathetic reasoning... really.

[checking facts]

I suppose that is why you are not lead designer or wouldn't stay lead designer for a long time. You kinda want to design your encounters and the game so that it appeals to as many people as possible.

As for making the game feel more logic..hum..fire from your fingers and flying on mythical beasts. Undead and talking cows?

fire from fingers, undead and talking cows are called "relative logic". in a world where those things exist, it makes sense for them to be there.

but I just can't picture a group of 10 people being stronger than a group with the same people and 15 more as well.

---------- Post added 2013-02-03 at 02:40 PM ----------

You're cute.... Soo predictable. I knew you would twist my words out of context like that.
Lets be adults for the moment and use a bit of reason, shall we?

In Vanilla there were no multiple raid modes.
In BC there weren't either, but 25were born. 10m were SEPERATE and UNIQUE dungeons which were not high end. High end was 25 even in Tier 4.

So back in the day 25m was the real thing.
Come Wotlk they introduced the difficulty modes. 10m were weakened 25s with lots of altered / removed mechanics.
(exception: Sarth 3D which was undertuned on 25 and much harder on 10)
Come cata, blizzard catered to all the little 10m raiders that were whining and wanting the same epixx and difficulty as 25man.

So yeah: 10m originally was an adaption of 25m.

Today: We don't know Blizzards design process.
We cannot say if they create the raid on 10 and scale up or create the raid on 25 and scale down. Personally I think they do the latter, because it's always easier to remove / nerf stuff that to add stuff.



ROFL... now we know you just play for the epics. Why would I wand to kick people from my guild that I LIKE PLAYING with just to not be bored and be able to go 10m?

Pathetic reasoning... really.

there you go again, attacking me for having a different opinion.

also: I don't raid for epics, I raid for transmog gear. couldn't care less for stats

[Vakna]

There's an even more retarded aspect to his Idea:

What if 25m normal is too easy for a group. Said group would be FORCED to ditch 15 of their raiders to be able to enjoy the challenge of a heroic boss encounter just so that HE can feel good in his 10m is "superawesomeandtotallyeliteall25mansareworthlessnoobs" vision.

Ermm...

That's going a bit overboard don't you think? All it is is a relatively uneducated solution put forward to a problem being bounced around. He probably doesn't even raid, or if he does definitely not at a heroic level. Anyone who puts any kind of effort into raiding knows this idea is not possible. Doesn't have anything to do with 10v25 arguments and elitism, though I'm sure if I read the whole thread it pops up somewhere, always does.

Anyway, games don't always have to make logical sense, neither do stories. Why didn't the eagles just carry Frodo to Mount Doom? etc etc.. I don't remember the exact term for it, but some things are just stretched out or made logically wrong to let a player/reader get more involved.