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    US Criminal Justice System

    I thought this was a very good article, and I just wanted to share it.

    http://www.npr.org/2014/05/19/312158...unish-the-poor

    The current US criminal justice system is perhaps the greatest societal injustice our nation faces today. The way criminals (especially poor criminals, which an unnecessary modifier in the US) are handled is just ripe for abuse and exploitation to the detriment of society as a whole. I hope in 50-100 years our great great grandchildren will look at us the same disdain we look at slave owners, racists, and homophobes.

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    Warchief Templar 331's Avatar
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    It's a practice that causes the poor to face harsher treatment than others who commit identical crimes and can afford to pay.
    Stopped reading right there. Just because someone can pay for the crime doesn't mean it is less harsh than someone who can't. If you can't do the time, or pay the fine, don't do the crime. It is a punishment. You are going to pay for it one way or the other. Since most people don't have the money to literally pay for it, jail time or probation are the other options. I feel absolutely no sympathy for these people.

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    The Lightbringer JfmC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar 331 View Post
    Stopped reading right there. Just because someone can pay for the crime doesn't mean it is less harsh than someone who can't. If you can't do the time, or pay the fine, don't do the crime. It is a punishment. You are going to pay for it one way or the other. Since most people don't have the money to literally pay for it, jail time or probation are the other options. I feel absolutely no sympathy for these people.
    Maybe he should have added that the US is lead rank in prisoners/capita, second only to North-Korea.
    Thread:Will we ever create A.I?
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    Elemental Lord Masark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JfmC View Post
    Maybe he should have added that the US is lead rank in prisoners/capita, second only to North-Korea.
    The USA will have to step it up then. They can't allow a prisoner gap.
    Warning : Above post may contain snark and/or sarcasm. Try reparsing with the /s argument before replying.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar 331 View Post
    Stopped reading right there. Just because someone can pay for the crime doesn't mean it is less harsh than someone who can't. If you can't do the time, or pay the fine, don't do the crime. It is a punishment. You are going to pay for it one way or the other. Since most people don't have the money to literally pay for it, jail time or probation are the other options. I feel absolutely no sympathy for these people.
    Yes, it absolutely is more harsh. If I'm a millionaire and i'm fined $1,000, I simply have to throw a tiny amount of money at the problem, and it goes away. If I'm poor, however, and cannot pay, in most cases that involves jail time. It's also not even a matter of sympathy. It's poor policy. You are potentially damning a person to be in and out of the system their whole life when the punishment could have been more reasonable. They could have then gone on to be a productive member of society. If you had continued reading the article, you would have read that people have trouble finding jobs to pay off court fees because they have a warrant out for their arrest for not paying court fees. How is that a good (or fair) system?

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    The Lightbringer JfmC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masark View Post
    The USA will have to step it up then. They can't allow a prisoner gap.
    Yes! It only means that there are to many criminals not in jail!
    Thread:Will we ever create A.I?
    So I just watched Her and it gave me a deep thought. Will man ever create an artificial consciousness or is it impossible. Anyone have any ideas?
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    We are currently creating "A.S" - artificial stupidity. A.K.A internet forums

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Fexus View Post
    If I'm a millionaire and i'm fined $1,000, I simply have to throw a tiny amount of money at the problem, and it goes away. If I'm poor, however, and cannot pay, in most cases that involves jail time.
    What your position is: "This guys rich he should be punished more, and this guys poor he shouldn't be punished at all. Its not fair"

    What your position should be: "Both of these people need to stop breaking the law."
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Zombergy View Post
    What your position is: "This guys rich he should be punished more, and this guys poor he shouldn't be punished at all. Its not fair"

    What your position should be: "Both of these people need to stop breaking the law."
    I actually never presented a potential solution. I simply pointed out the current system is insanely unfair.

    And to your second point:

    1. We have a system that encourages guilty verdicts (because they pay the bills)

    2. People guilty of petty crimes shouldn't have their finances and careers ruined. Even from an unsympathetic, pragmatic approach that is bad policy.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Zombergy View Post
    What your position is:
    No rational person would ever espouse that position. Next time you feel like building a strawman, try gathering more than one piece of straw so that it can actually stand up on its own.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zombergy View Post
    What your position is: "This guys rich he should be punished more, and this guys poor he shouldn't be punished at all. Its not fair"

    What your position should be: "Both of these people need to stop breaking the law."


    What needs to happen is your income// wealth needs to be taken into consideration when a penalty is issued against you, you have a ferrari and does your 7th DUI and wrecks a couple other cars while doing this last DUI session, getting work release isnt exactly punishment for you is it?

    Finland does traffic offenses the right way, your income is a factor in it and we have cases where rich fellas have gotten a speeding ticket of 100,000 dollars. Which is the only fair way to do it. 1000 dollars for a poor person is a shitload of $$$ while for the rich it is just a rounding error on his monthly entertainment budget.

    So why object to actually having punishment for the rich that break the law as well since really a 1000 fine for a millionaire is a drop in a bucket and will not mean he is suffering any hardship from his crimes? so it is clear cut to me that we need to change the penalties so regardless if you are rich or poor you do the crime you do the time and it needs to actually be felt as a punishment even if you are a billionaire. Thats just common sense but i know the far right will go apeshit about making sure the rich actually pays for the crimes they commit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fexus View Post
    Yes, it absolutely is more harsh. If I'm a millionaire and i'm fined $1,000, I simply have to throw a tiny amount of money at the problem, and it goes away. If I'm poor, however, and cannot pay, in most cases that involves jail time. It's also not even a matter of sympathy. It's poor policy. You are potentially damning a person to be in and out of the system their whole life when the punishment could have been more reasonable. They could have then gone on to be a productive member of society. If you had continued reading the article, you would have read that people have trouble finding jobs to pay off court fees because they have a warrant out for their arrest for not paying court fees. How is that a good (or fair) system?

    It is not a good system, it is a system where the rich just can toss a tiny amount of $$$ on a problem and voila AFFLUENZA got me out of the problems again. we need to have a system where things like speeding tickets etc is based upon your wealth// income since really a 200 dollar ticket for a billionaire in his ferrari is just not a punishment in any way shape or form while the same 200 dollar ticket for the single mom working min wage is basically crippling her entire economy and might very well force her out to become homeless since the budget dont have space for 200 dollar tickets whilst the rich dude just looks upon that same punishment as oh well who gives a shit it is something that comes with driving a ferrari and in no way am i going to slow down it is a fucking FERRARI after all i drive it like it is a FERRARI and no damn 200 dollar fine will stop me i am a MILLIONAIRE in my FERRARI.

  11. #11
    Herald of the Titans Ghostpanther's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fexus View Post
    Yes, it absolutely is more harsh. If I'm a millionaire and i'm fined $1,000, I simply have to throw a tiny amount of money at the problem, and it goes away. If I'm poor, however, and cannot pay, in most cases that involves jail time. It's also not even a matter of sympathy. It's poor policy. You are potentially damning a person to be in and out of the system their whole life when the punishment could have been more reasonable. They could have then gone on to be a productive member of society. If you had continued reading the article, you would have read that people have trouble finding jobs to pay off court fees because they have a warrant out for their arrest for not paying court fees. How is that a good (or fair) system?
    You make a good point about the monetary fines. Instead of say a set amount, $5000 they should make mandatory jail or prison terms. Speaking of major crimes, not traffic tickets. :P And make the prisons.....a place you never want to return to again. Not some vacation time to relax. :P But even this will favor the rich who can afford the most expensive lawyers to defend themselves. The winners usually are always the rich. Raise the price of gas per gallon to 20 bucks in the US and the rich will be like...":P., who cares?, still making that cross country trip I had planned."

  12. #12
    Who cares what happens to people convicted of crimes? Nobody. They're not me, or you. They're not us, or anyone we care about. These criminals are a whole subset of people we've put into a "box". Once they enter that box, they're no longer fathers/husbands/sons/brothers. No no no, "criminal" is such a scary and non-specific term that it's easy to consider a person in that box to be less than human, or at least less so than us. Terribly convenient that, because once you strip someone of their status as an equal human being it makes it so much easier to justify doing whatever you want to them.

    It makes approximately zero sense to take someone's freedom, usually take their license, give them a criminal record (which is a near-absolute bar to employment) and then bill them for it all. Debtor's prisons? Easy workaround, make payments a condition of probation and make probation the standard for everything. How underhanded and fucked up that is shouldn't even be a matter for debate. The article only covers one facet of the runaway train that is our justice system. There's a reason why we have the highest per capita incarceration rate in the world and it has nothing to do with there being more crime here than in, say, Brazil.

    It's wonderful for all of us to the extent that it affects us - which is not much if at all - but what about the people who are being mired in a system that makes quicksand look as sticky as regularsand? Who cares about those people? Nobody, that's who.

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    The Insane Reeve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fexus View Post
    The way criminals (especially poor criminals, which an unnecessary modifier in the US)
    There are plenty of rich criminals. They just don't get punished as often or as severely, despite the magnitude of their crimes often being greater.
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    Elemental Lord Masark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostpanther View Post
    And make the prisons.....a place you never want to return to again.
    Exactly how many decades do you need to persist in this failed ideology before you figure out that it doesn't work?
    Warning : Above post may contain snark and/or sarcasm. Try reparsing with the /s argument before replying.
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Dendrek View Post
    No rational person would ever espouse that position. Next time you feel like building a strawman, try gathering more than one piece of straw so that it can actually stand up on its own.
    Ya you're right, nobody ever said rich people should pay more or be punished more because they are rich.

    I mean its not like anybody ever occupied anything to send that message.

    And I build my strawman out of steel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by araine View Post
    So why object to actually having punishment for the rich...
    Because that would be the exact same concept as when we used to have special punishments for Blacks who broke the law.

    The idiom "justice is blind" means your wealth, race, gender, whatever isn't meant to be considered in the process of dispensing justice.
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostpanther View Post
    You make a good point about the monetary fines. Instead of say a set amount, $5000 they should make mandatory jail or prison terms. Speaking of major crimes, not traffic tickets. :P And make the prisons.....a place you never want to return to again. Not some vacation time to relax. :P But even this will favor the rich who can afford the most expensive lawyers to defend themselves. The winners usually are always the rich. Raise the price of gas per gallon to 20 bucks in the US and the rich will be like...":P., who cares?, still making that cross country trip I had planned."
    Mandatory sentencing is not the solution, it just removes leniency from judges resulting in more jail time (and gov costs) even for people who are unlikely to commit the crimes again. Or have pot on their persons.

    If you really want to reduce the chance of people returning to jail, you'll find a rich man would wants to make a widget factory in every high poverty city in America. And is willing to hire convicts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zombergy View Post
    Ya you're right, nobody ever said rich people should pay more or be punished more because they are rich.

    I mean its not like anybody ever occupied anything to send that message.
    Wouldn't having a income/wealth scaling factor on fines and court cost charges result in the rich man and the poor man having equal amounts of:
    What your position should be: "Both of these people need to stop breaking the law."

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    Herald of the Titans Ghostpanther's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masark View Post
    Exactly how many decades do you need to persist in this failed ideology before you figure out that it doesn't work?
    Does not work in what way? Reforming someone? Reducing crime? The goal can be nether of those, it is basically the demand for justice. You screw with society, you pay for it. Will this in effect stop all crime or murders? Of course not. But I do think it would help. Put a cop on a freeway with a radar gun in his hand and watch more people slow down to the speed limit. And of course there will still be some who are dumb and get caught. :P

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    Warchief Templar 331's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fexus View Post
    Yes, it absolutely is more harsh. If I'm a millionaire and i'm fined $1,000, I simply have to throw a tiny amount of money at the problem, and it goes away. If I'm poor, however, and cannot pay, in most cases that involves jail time.
    The majority of the population aren't millionaires. So to have a system that targets millionaires specifically would be ethically, and maybe legally, wrong.

    It's also not even a matter of sympathy. It's poor policy.
    It can be improved, I won't argue that. But everyone paying the same cost for a crime is fair. Just because you don't have it and Joe Millionaire does doesn't make it unfair.

    You are potentially damning a person to be in and out of the system their whole life when the punishment could have been more reasonable.
    It's not the punishment that makes a criminal go in and out of the system, it's them. The mindset of a criminal is that of someone who doesn't care for the law to begin with. You think the guy that got caught selling drugs is going to stop once he gets out of jail? Do you think he feels sorry because he got caught? The only reason why he wouldn't go back to selling drugs is because he wouldn't want to go back to jail.

    They could have then gone on to be a productive member of society. If you had continued reading the article, you would have read that people have trouble finding jobs to pay off court fees because they have a warrant out for their arrest for not paying court fees. How is that a good (or fair) system?
    Like I said, don't do the crime if you can't do the time. If they weren't productive members to begin with, then how's a more lenient criminal system going to make them more productive? If anything, a better education and job finding system needs to be implemented.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostpanther View Post
    Does not work in what way? Reforming someone? Reducing crime? The goal can be nether of those, it is basically the demand for justice. You screw with society, you pay for it. Will this in effect stop all crime or murders? Of course not. But I do think it would help. Put a cop on a freeway with a radar gun in his hand and watch more people slow down to the speed limit. And of course there will still be some who are dumb and get caught. :P
    The harshness of the punishment is not really good at determining crime rate. Look at all the states that have the death penalty. Amazing how people are still murdering people there.

    My desire for revenge (which is essentially what you are advocating here) in no way outshines my own civility and humanity.
    Get a grip man! It's CHEESE!

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    Elemental Lord Masark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostpanther View Post
    Reforming someone? Reducing crime? The goal can be nether of those
    I'm sorry, what?
    Warning : Above post may contain snark and/or sarcasm. Try reparsing with the /s argument before replying.
    With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not necessarily a good idea.
    Random fact of the day : Every sitting member of Congress receives an issue of Hustler every month.

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