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  1. #1
    Moderator Isrozzis's Avatar
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    Are AD carries weaker than they were in season 2?

    I was reading Doublelift's Blog that he started and the first line in it really caught my attention.
    I wanted to write about why ADs are much weaker than they were before since the Season 3 changes, but I would much rather outline which champions I feel are much too strong at the moment.
    I had been feeling for some time that AD carries were weaker, but I thought maybe I was getting worse or I was playing with better people, but since one of the premier AD carries in the world voices this same opinion (almost certainly had it before me too) I wanted to make a post about it.

    So from my experience during season 3 playing AD carries, I feel significantly weaker than I did in season 2. This is partly because of the item changes that made AD slightly cheaper and made AS cheaper. Which in my opinion has led to the rise of caster ADs like Ezreal, Miss Fortune and to some extent Graves.AD carries with short range, i.e. Vayne feel much more difficult that before. Vayne still has that tank destroying capability, but she has to be within range to do it, and it is usually horribly painful to get that close to a team of bruisers. Vayne was always a difficult champion, but I feel like she is much harder now, but that's beside the point.

    The main two reasons of the feeling that ADs are weaker than before in my opinion are: Warmogs and the bruiser fotm "meta."

    I'll start with Warmogs. In the season 3 patch they made basic resists, mr and armor, more expensive and made health cheaper. They have tuned this a little bit, but I still feel like health is too good. Junglers and top lanes have the option of building their starting items then going straight for a Warmogs. In season 2 this would have made you a meat shield but you would have had no real presence. Due to it and AD being cheaper now, bruisers are able to get the Warmogs much earlier and still be relevant.

    For a simple price comparison, Warmogs currently has a cost of 2650g, where as a Bloodthirster has a cost of 3000g, and is being increased to 3200g in the next patch I believe. (I could be wrong on the increase price, but on the pbe it is currently more expensive) So you have a bruiser with a warmogs and a smattering of small items, and an AD carry with a dorans blade, some boots and a bloodthirster, or maybe just parts of a blood thirster and dragon fights start to break out. I feel almost completely useless if I'm not kind of fed from bottom lane. Most ranged ADs simply cannot survive the bruiser onslaught in the early levels. Olaf is a problem espically. He is getting nerfed, but right now there is very little you can do outside of flashing away to escape him when he has his ult up. Yes he is fairly easy to kite when it is down, but you don't usually live that long.

    The other thing, is the "bruiser meta." While APs are still completely viable, AD casters/assassins/bruisers are ending up in mid lane much more often than they used to, meaning teams often completely forgo magic damage. In season 2 the obvious choice was to get some armor on your team and just try to mitigate the damage, but it doesn't work as well now. The bruisers that are played mid also tend to have gap closers that allow them to jump onto the AD carry with ease. While the AD carry should position properly and not go in until the ccs and gap closers have been used it is sometimes unavoidable. For example, a team with jungle Xin Zhao, mid Jarvan and a support leona is an absolutely terrifying thing to play against as an AD. In season 2 this was an extremely powerful dive comp, but it seems to have only gotten better. There are many examples I could give here, but I feel like one suffices.

    So I feel kind of pigeon holed into playing Ezreal, MF, or Caitlyn right now. Ezreal because he can build as an AD caster and not even worry about getting crit until his 4th-5th item if he wants, and still get excellent damage off of his Qs. Miss Fortune is currently popular for her ultimate with AoE comps, and she has a strong laning phase. Caitlyn is good to me right now because of her range. It lets her stay that little extra bit out of the fight, and reduces the chance that you are just going to get gibbed. I know proper positioning is incredibly important, but often times you are just forced to run and gun, and spend a lot of your time furiously kiting in team fights.

    Maybe I'm exaggerating a bit or putting the blame on the wrong things, but I would like to know your thoughts on the matter. To recap, AD carries feel less powerful, and more difficult than they were in season 2, due to the early stacking of health and the "bruiser meta."

  2. #2
    I didn't really play ADC much til Season 3 but...I would have to agree. It seems infinitely harder to kill anything really, but especially Kha, Panth, even Elise now. You just can't trade with them, period, and you can't get away from them.

  3. #3
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    Well I don't mind this tbh. Remember late game in season 2 vs a fully built adc? Everyone would die to it in 5 or less hits, maybe just maybe some full tank builds would last longer.

    Now late game an adc still does a hell of a lot of damage, but it is not as ridicules as it was. I believe they need a bit of a mid game buff however (well mf and ezreal don't there strength is about fight) to make the mid game, where the first of the warmogs/sunfires come into play a bit less of a pain.

    Honestly I prefer how it is now, but adc are lacking in the mid game, remember tanks are meant to be hard to kill and generally there job is to be a pain in the ass for Adc's. So adc having a bit of a harder life is a good thing imo.

  4. #4
    Legendary! Xanjori's Avatar
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    ADs have a bad early game, everyone rushes Warmogs, ADs bad early game becomes even worse.

    Late game though Warmogs wont make a difference, you'll be critting 800-1k AAs every 0.6seconds or so still. ADs are still very strong late game, the problem is that currently their early and mid games are just really awful due to how cheap and effective a Warmogs is. I had a game the other day where I was Trist. Enemy team had a fed Jax and we were losing fights because we couldn't handle him, however once I had my LW I could easily take Jax 1v1 and then go on to dominate a fight, in one fight I solo'd Jax, then took an AD Thresh+Amumu at the same time. The fight after that we took on a clean ace because the enemy AD carry was miles behind me in gear.

    I think it's harder to get to the 6item AD build now, which is when ADs will dominate fights, and thats why ADs feel a lot weaker, yes they lost a bit of power end game but they needed to realistically, games were literally based on who had the better/most farmed AD and once you hit 50minutes every other champion on your team may as well have been classed as a support.
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  5. #5
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    They released too many assassins and made those assassins a weeeeee bit too strong (l0l khazix rengar). Not to mention BC and so on. AD Casters simply got a huge ass buff which is an in-direct nerf to ADCarries. Also with the nerf to TriForce and the price changes going up, yeah, ADCarries are a lot weaker now.

  6. #6
    I am Murloc! The Fiend's Avatar
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    Considering the shallow gameplay of most if not all AD carries, let's be frank.

    Who misses that Ashe/Graves/Tristana/Corki getting a few kills here and there and then dominating the entire match because his damage output is insane?

    AD carries in LoL were always made a priority, in season 1 they were given mid, in Season 2 they have a support that babysits them as they farm. Honestly? I don't think AD carries should even exist in the game, and not at the extend they used to in season 1 or 2.
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  7. #7
    Personally AP carriers feel much more underwhelming than AD carriers. You still can't do without an AD carry. But you can drop AP carry no problem. Also the health stacking is a bit silly. Three giant's belts should't be a viable build.

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  8. #8
    I have been abusing the Cait / Nunu pairing recently...maybe I should give Twitch a go.

    edit: I feel stronger in S3 because I've focused entirely on my ADC game. I've gone up 200 ELO from the close of S2 through preseason.

    ADCs are still absolutely necessary (and strong). They are the ones that can do nearly constant high damage to any target (unless you forget LW and are trying to take down 200+ armor tanks) and still can have the most effect on 30+ minute team fights.

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  9. #9
    Moderator Axethor's Avatar
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    I think as a whole, ADCs have gotten weaker. However, Ezreal has gotten stronger I believe. At least its a lot easier to carry as Ezreal now than in S2. The "caster" ADs got a nice buff because now they can actually build to play off their strengths. However, their small buff is a huge buff for the melee caster ADs, so it's not as noticeable unless your on Ezreal because of his great poke and escapes.

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  10. #10
    I am Murloc! The Fiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toxigen View Post
    I have been abusing the Cait / Nunu pairing recently...maybe I should give Twitch a go.

    edit: I feel stronger in S3 because I've focused entirely on my ADC game. I've gone up 200 ELO from the close of S2 through preseason.

    ADCs are still absolutely necessary (and strong). They are the ones that can do nearly constant high damage to any target (unless you forget LW and are trying to take down 200+ armor tanks) and still can have the most effect on 30+ minute team fights.
    Don't try twitch, the increase in HP pools all around means his lack of escape or decent slow mechanics mean he's a sitting duck 90% of the time and pretty much needs to be fed kills.

    It's the same with Varus right now, though he works out better in teamfights eventually.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-30 at 04:14 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Axethor View Post
    I think as a whole, ADCs have gotten weaker. However, Ezreal has gotten stronger I believe. At least its a lot easier to carry as Ezreal now than in S2. The "caster" ADs got a nice buff because now they can actually build to play off their strengths. However, their small buff is a huge buff for the melee caster ADs, so it's not as noticeable unless your on Ezreal because of his great poke and escapes.
    If only the Huge buff to Melee caster ADs translated easily over to Melee AD carries. Alot of the items seem right on foot, but last hitting and surving pokes as someone like Trynd or Yi is horrible.

    Pretty much pushes out being an AD carry unless you're good and or you take top lane.
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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    Don't try twitch, the increase in HP pools all around means his lack of escape or decent slow mechanics mean he's a sitting duck 90% of the time and pretty much needs to be fed kills.
    Not according to Doublelift.

    Lastly, Twitch needs to be nerfed before we see him become the new Ezreal. He will be picked and banned in almost every game in NA. He is broken. He is a bully in lane, he has stealth, movement speed increase, attack speed steroid, AoE slow, true damage, burst, the highest range in the game, and the highest scaling in the game of any AD. There is never a downside in picking Twitch. You don’t need high mobility like Vayne or Ezreal has when you have so much range raw damage. You will see protect-the-Twitch comps with mass AoE CC, and essentially any team that gets Nunu and Twitch in the same game should win at 30 minutes.

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  12. #12
    Moderator Axethor's Avatar
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    I was thinking the same thing. Twitch is probably the best ADC right now. He is better than both Vayne and Trist, who are considered the best of the late game carries.

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  13. #13
    I am Murloc! The Fiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toxigen View Post
    Not according to Doublelift.
    I'm sorry but half the stuff he says is just outright wrong.

    His range is terrible, he has a tiny HP pool and he's one of the easiest Carrys to gank by far. His true damage does little to nothing unless fully stacked up and he's "Burst" is about the same and easily stopped by a decent HP pool.

    I can not mention a single time a Twitch could bully me in lane if I had decent support. Considering Twitch dies when a slight breeze hits him, he has no where near the viable usability people says he does.

    Case in point. He gets jumped on by Kha'zix, Talon or Pantheon.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-30 at 05:56 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Axethor View Post
    I was thinking the same thing. Twitch is probably the best ADC right now. He is better than both Vayne and Trist, who are considered the best of the late game carries.
    Better on paper =/= better in game, he has no decent escape mechanic, he's a sitting duck if singled out.

    Vayne and Trist at least have some decent movement control.
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  14. #14
    Moderator Isrozzis's Avatar
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    Ya I was in class so I didn't respond about the twitch comment. I don't quite agree with doublelifts statement that he is that good, but he is very strong. His ultimate in particular. Also his level 1 damage is insane. If you can't get 6 stacks on someone and expunge they are going to take some serious damage.

    Though I do agree with the people saying the mid game of ADs is their weakest point right now. Early game is more or less the same, since the item changes don't factor much into the first few levels. The mid game is really where bruisers shine the most, and ADs typically slump a bit. The current item balance accentuates the strong point of the bruisers and the weak point of the ADs. Their late game is more or less the same though. A 6 item AD is gonna hurt anything that it is shooting.

    Though as for defensive items, I've found that warmogs is simply better than GA or QSS. If the game goes into the super late game, Mercurial scimitar becomes an excellent defensive item, but it is damn expensive.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    I'm sorry but half the stuff he says is just outright wrong.

    His range is terrible, he has a tiny HP pool and he's one of the easiest Carrys to gank by far. His true damage does little to nothing unless fully stacked up and he's "Burst" is about the same and easily stopped by a decent HP pool.

    I can not mention a single time a Twitch could bully me in lane if I had decent support. Considering Twitch dies when a slight breeze hits him, he has no where near the viable usability people says he does.
    It's not just his opinion. Scarra thinks the same.

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  16. #16
    I am Murloc! The Fiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Repefe View Post
    It's not just his opinion. Scarra thinks the same.
    I don't really follow E-sports mooks, the game is different at every level of play and honestly, the higher echelons of LoL are in terms much EASIER than the lower areas where you don't have an entire organised team to babysit you as you farm for 20 mins to win.

    Twitch needs the entire team to play babysit, yet he can easily be shut down himself.

    Thats not a good trade off compared to AD carries who CAN take care of themselves.
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  17. #17
    Brewmaster Dutchmagoz's Avatar
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    Everyone is building more tanky, so they seem weaker.
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  18. #18
    I am Murloc! The Fiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchmagoz View Post
    Everyone is building more tanky, so they seem weaker.
    Personally I enjoy that, it's better than everyone but the tank or brusier going full glass cannon mode and every teamfight having someone instantly explode.
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    Twitch needs the entire team to play babysit, yet he can easily be shut down himself.

    Thats not a good trade off compared to AD carries who CAN take care of themselves.
    Yeah, so at your whatever elo you are at Twitch players are not op ... that makes it more valid argument that one of a pro. Sure. Nothing Dl has said is wrong as you call it. Twitch in it's current form seems to be the strongest late game carry. That is widely considered a truth. Whether you can pull him off or not is completelly different matter. When low skill enviroments are concerned Cait&Nunu is the strongest combo anyway.

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  20. #20
    Moderator Isrozzis's Avatar
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    @The Fiend (quoting on a phone is painful). Twitch gets up to 850 range when his ult is up. So yes he has incredible range. His base range of 550 is pretty average too, and doesn't lead to him being bullied in lane that badly. He is very squishy I will give you that, but in my opinion he is one of the easiest champions to position. Since his Q makes him invisible and grants a movement speed bonus, it becomes very easy to get to where you need to be safely. Expunge does fall off a bit late game, but in the early to mid game it hits very hard.

    Saying that he just dies when an assassin jumps on him is a bit of an empty argument. Yes Tristan's can try to jump away or vayne can condemn and tumble, but the burst you took while you were silenced or stunned is likely going to put you out of the fight regardless. We'll compare twitch to mf in their ability to stop an assassin since mf lacks a movement ability like twitch and has seen lots if tournament use just in case you weren't sure she was viable. Mf can use make it rain and hope that slow is enough and start to kite. If she's been hit already her passive is useless. If she hasn't, you can run much easier, but you are running and not shooting so you've been effectively removed from the fight anyways. Lets look at twitch now. He has a targeted slow, much like make it rain an he can turn invisible. Sometimes the invisibility will get delayed and you will die, but once you do go into stealth you can easily reposition and keep fighting, or run away because the fight is obviously lost. To me the hardest thing about twitch is properly using his Q. You have to know when to use it to get somewhere at the start of the fight, and you have to know when to save it to try to escape. Mastering this makes twitch incredibly powerful.

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