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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis003 View Post
    they nerfed it to where BW only breaks CC on the pet doesn't make them immune anymore. 8 years with that ability and PvP QQers get something thats been in since launch changed
    Since launch you say?You may mean since BC but oh no no not launch.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Malackai View Post
    Tbh this whole trend started with TBC beta back then.
    I still remember hunters steam rolling in pvp at the end of vanilla (hunters even some other classes on the beta forums telling people that hunters would even out in the first raid tier but they where a tad op during leveling) but tears where flowing so blizzard toned them down so they ended up going in to the first tier pretty medicore. End of the expac they ended up pretty much bottom barrel (pretty much only surv being desired for bringing exposed weakness)

    Wrath same happened start of exspac during leveling and start of the first tier hunters being in front, people moan, hunters get toned down rest gets gear, hunters end up medicore bottom barrel near the end of the expac (only think hunters kept competitive was going mm and armor pen I believe?)

    cata same thing happened I remember being surv and completely blowing people out of the water during the start of the expac, then people moan we get nerfed others start to accumulate gear and we fall behind at the end of the exspac.

    Maybe its me but I always felt that our class simply scales to much and to fast during the start of the exspac or a new raid tier.
    The initial scaling seems way to fast while the other classes need some more rampup time gear wise.
    So hunters peak/hit a ceiling early and then flatline scaling wise.

    or at least it feels that way to me.
    We lack scaling from secondary stats. We end up being really really good at the start of an expansion, or a tier when Blizzard buffs our bases to the top, when everyone has little secondaries and relying primarily on Hit caps, primary values, and lower secondary stats, but we fall behind significantly as others begin to pull in tons of secondaries on the new tier's gear and we get very little benefit from them.

    Go simulate our stat weights then compare them with a lot of other classes and specs. We get pretty good Agility scaling but the rest of our stats are basically worthless and only matter when compared against one another. We'll see 5.5 or 6 EP for Agility which is great compared to the 5 for other classes but then our secondaries aren't weighted any higher than 2.5 while other classes have secondaries valued in the 3s and 4s and secondaries improve at a faster rate than primaries. Us getting 1 more EP from our primary than other classes doesn't matter when we get 1 to 2 EP less on each secondary.

    Mid tier as everyone has gotten the bulk of their upgrades, Hunters have been spiraling down.
    Last edited by Bullettime; 2014-01-07 at 09:22 PM.
    FC: 3067-6604-6289. Steel Safari - Skarmory - Klefki - Ferrorseed

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Bullettime View Post
    We lack scaling from secondary stats. We end up being really really good at the start of an expansion, or a tier when Blizzard buffs our bases to the top, when everyone has little secondaries and relying primarily on Hit caps, primary values, and lower secondary stats, but we fall behind significantly as others begin to pull in tons of secondaries on the new tier's gear and we get very little benefit from them.

    Go simulate our stat weights then compare them with a lot of other classes and specs. We get pretty good Agility scaling but the rest of our stats are basically worthless and only matter when compared against one another. We'll see 5.5 or 6 EP for Agility which is great compared to the 5 for other classes but then our secondaries aren't weighted any higher than 2.5 while other classes have secondaries valued in the 3s and 4s and secondaries improve at a faster rate than primaries. Us getting 1 more EP from our primary than other classes doesn't matter when we get 1 to 2 EP less on each secondary.

    Mid tier as everyone has gotten the bulk of their upgrades, Hunters have been spiraling down.
    yes but the feeling I have is quite correct then ?

    The boost we feel every start of the tier or start of the exspac is purely the main stat scaling and like you said the secondary stat scaling lacks
    while other classes have both.
    Thus they ramp up slower then we do because they are balanced to scale with both primary stats and secondary while we only scale with a primairy and therefor faster initial ramp up and hitting the ceiling faster.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Bullettime View Post
    Yup. Some of us post the math and outright tell Blizzard during the PTR process where we are and where we will be. They never fucking listen and is a reason why I haven't been active on the official boards as often.
    I haven't even visited the official Hunter forums in probably.....a year? pretty sure you saw the last time I was "active" on it haha.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Bullettime View Post
    Go simulate our stat weights then compare them with a lot of other classes and specs. We get pretty good Agility scaling but the rest of our stats are basically worthless and only matter when compared against one another. We'll see 5.5 or 6 EP for Agility which is great compared to the 5 for other classes but then our secondaries aren't weighted any higher than 2.5 while other classes have secondaries valued in the 3s and 4s and secondaries improve at a faster rate than primaries. Us getting 1 more EP from our primary than other classes doesn't matter when we get 1 to 2 EP less on each secondary.
    The sad thing is that BM has great potential for secondary synergy in ONE passive- Go for the Throat. More crits out of hasted autoshots leads to more pet focus to land mastery-boosted basic attack crits. It's just not strong enough.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Kingoomieiii View Post
    The sad thing is that BM has great potential for secondary synergy in ONE passive- Go for the Throat. More crits out of hasted autoshots leads to more pet focus to land mastery-boosted basic attack crits. It's just not strong enough.
    The issue with Haste is our resource and combat system double gating us behind cooldowns and resources. While I do enjoy the system, it does lower the effective value of Haste as Haste's value basically comes down to how it impacts RPPM and auto damage. For others like Rogues, Haste impacts auto damage, poisons, and has a noticeable impact on their Energy gen and thus how often they get to push buttons. For Hunters, the impact of Haste on our gameplay is very small. It's hard to notice the impacts of Haste unless you look at a simulation or log or have a large Haste effect active. Casting Cobra Shot .2 seconds faster doesn't mean much when our entire cycle revolves around pressing X every 6 seconds without fail.

    Mastery is poor because of how little we benefit from it. Even Marks PvE gets very little from it due to high Haste Aimed Shot outperforming high Mastery or high Haste Arcane. Survival's Mastery scaling is a total joke. If 90% of our damage was elemental, I could see it. But when only like 55-60% is......

    Crit is terrible across basically every class who doesn't have some sort of trigger (Fire, Warriors) so it's hilarious how it's our best secondary, excluding the odd BM simulations where your gear combination puts Haste a hair higher.
    Last edited by Bullettime; 2014-01-08 at 08:09 PM.
    FC: 3067-6604-6289. Steel Safari - Skarmory - Klefki - Ferrorseed

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Bullettime View Post
    The issue with Haste is our resource and combat system double gating us behind cooldowns and resources. While I do enjoy the system, it does lower the effective value of Haste as Haste's value basically comes down to how it impacts RPPM and auto damage. For others like Rogues, Haste impacts auto damage, poisons, and has a noticeable impact on their Energy gen and thus how often they get to push buttons. For Hunters, the impact of Haste on our gameplay is very small. It's hard to notice the impacts of Haste unless you look at a simulation or log or have a large Haste effect active. Casting Cobra Shot .2 seconds faster doesn't mean much when our entire cycle revolves around pressing X every 6 seconds without fail.

    Mastery is poor because of how little we benefit from it. Even Marks PvE gets very little from it due to high Haste Aimed Shot outperforming high Mastery or high Haste Arcane. Survival's Mastery scaling is a total joke. If 90% of our damage was elemental, I could see it. But when only like 55-60% is......

    Crit is terrible across basically every class who doesn't have some sort of trigger (Fire, Warriors) so it's hilarious how it's our best secondary, excluding the odd BM simulations where your gear combination puts Haste a hair higher.
    This and the related posts are spot on.
    I've always though the biggest reason hunters fall behind in scaling is due to our poor secondary scaling. It's pathetic that crit is by far our best stat, when we don't have anything that significantly scales or synergises with it.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Bullettime View Post
    The issue with Haste is our resource and combat system double gating us behind cooldowns and resources. While I do enjoy the system, it does lower the effective value of Haste as Haste's value basically comes down to how it impacts RPPM and auto damage. For others like Rogues, Haste impacts auto damage, poisons, and has a noticeable impact on their Energy gen and thus how often they get to push buttons. For Hunters, the impact of Haste on our gameplay is very small. It's hard to notice the impacts of Haste unless you look at a simulation or log or have a large Haste effect active. Casting Cobra Shot .2 seconds faster doesn't mean much when our entire cycle revolves around pressing X every 6 seconds without fail.

    Mastery is poor because of how little we benefit from it. Even Marks PvE gets very little from it due to high Haste Aimed Shot outperforming high Mastery or high Haste Arcane. Survival's Mastery scaling is a total joke. If 90% of our damage was elemental, I could see it. But when only like 55-60% is......

    Crit is terrible across basically every class who doesn't have some sort of trigger (Fire, Warriors) so it's hilarious how it's our best secondary, excluding the odd BM simulations where your gear combination puts Haste a hair higher.
    That pretty much sums up everything wrong with hunters and secondary stats. One thing I'd like to add is neither MM or SV Mastery affects pet damage in any way which is about 15% our DPS, nor Stampede/AMoC which are our two major cooldowns.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Traxex1909 View Post
    One thing I'd like to add is neither MM or SV Mastery affects pet damage in any way which is about 15% our DPS, nor Stampede/AMoC which are our two major cooldowns.
    This is another issue, which is that MoP's dev focus seemed to be almost entirely on BM. I grant that the spec needed some love after being neglected since early Wrath, but it went too far the other way. An entire tier of beast talents is obviously going to be weaker for MM/SV, as is Stampede. I realize they don't want to have rows with "this is the BM talent, this is the MM talent, this is the SV talent", but at the same time we do have three specs.

  10. #110
    So there is a lovely tweet chain from Celestalon...

    https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statu...27637513654272
    Q: So, five out of six tiers in a row for Hawk buffs. Think there might be a bit bigger of an underlying problem, perhaps?

    Blizz: We use Hawk as a buff knob because it's a safe, consistent way to do it, without any unintended sideeffects on rotations.

    Q: I think you mean you use Hawk because hunters do not, dare I say it?, scale well with gear and fall behind as each tier goes on.

    Blizz: Buffing Hawk is a buff to Hunter scaling rate.
    I love that Blizzard doesn't actually understand the term "scaling". Specifically the fact when Agi to secondary is 3+ > 1, of course we're always going to suck as everyone else gets value from secondaries...

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by CTwin View Post
    So there is a lovely tweet chain from Celestalon...

    https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statu...27637513654272


    I love that Blizzard doesn't actually understand the term "scaling". Specifically the fact when Agi to secondary is 3+ > 1, of course we're always going to suck as everyone else gets value from secondaries...
    You know this wouldn't matter much if it was addressed at the start of the tier. The problem isn't that it has happened 5 or so times, it's that it is done after progression.
    http://www.wowprogress.com/character...uzad/Takeaseat
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    Recruiting exceptional raiders for 20man mythic content. Click here to apply.

  12. #112
    A class that brings no raid cooldowns other than MD and is a middle of the pack DPS is always going to be inferior. All we have is that we an DPS on the move, but still inferior to warlocks on thok. GG blizz

    I find it funny how blizz nuked hit/exp because they weren't "fun" stats. Explain how crit/haste/mastery are fun??
    Last edited by mercylolk; 2014-01-09 at 04:26 PM.

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