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  1. #1

    5.2 Disc pvp discussion

    I am getting excited about 5.2 disc PVP, and I wanted to get some discussion going about talents and glyphs as I have not yet played disc this expansion (I played ~2k last season).

    Interesting glyphs:
    -MD. I think everyone will be taking this.
    -SWD. Needed to death poly's/blinds/scatters.
    -Penance. Healing from behind a pillar is pretty attractive (start cast in LOS then move behind pillar).
    -Purge glyph. Extra 3% dmg on every purged ability while going for a kill is nice. Especially in something like RMP when you are purging in the opener.
    -Inner fire or fade could be good against cleave teams.

    Talents:
    -T3 could be comp dependent. Solace for longer games, but 1m cooldown on mindbender could work well when playing with a mage (mindbender every 2nd deep).
    -T4, has anyone used spectral guise effectively? Does it work well when getting trained?
    -T6 Do these talents that heal/dmg break CC? If so they arent very useful, but Divine star seems to be the best.

    What comps are people going to try? I think RMP making a comeback, as rogues with 1 minute cloak is scary. That being said you might see more pally healers because they can survive the melee train. RMPala?

    Discuss!

  2. #2
    If I give it a shot I'll at least use SW and Penance. I don't really see md as mandatory unless you're playing an extremly aggressive line-up, it's such a massive mana hog that I'd just prefer to swap in most cases, if we go rmp it'll be really sexy though. If not I actually really like inner sanctum.

    Talent wise I'll almost certainly go mindbender (solace isn't really dealing much dmg/healing in pvp, and having a 3 minute ccable sf kinda blows) and spectral guise (yes it's really unreliable, but it can be used offensively and still beats the options). T6 is quite frankly irrelevant.

    I still don't see the changes we're getting making us even close to as strong as palas/shamans though.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by junn View Post
    I am getting excited about 5.2 disc PVP, and I wanted to get some discussion going about talents and glyphs as I have not yet played disc this expansion (I played ~2k last season).
    I haven't played competively at all in MoP. My last ventures where 1.9-2k in the first and 2nd season of cata, but I also can't wait for the changes.

    A big change for disc is the warrior nefs and the 15% buff to focused will. Focused will is separate from resilience AFAIK (correct me if I am wrong), so this buff is a reduction of 12.5% in incoming damage. That will be pretty important in surviving melee trains.

    MD glyph is important if you are going for paladins of any sort. You just can't get MDs off in a meaningfull amount of time without it. Glyph of penance is a must for me and glyph of SWD is essential for avoiding paladin, druid and mage cc trains. Deathing scatters and blinds is beyond my reaction time (I am an old man :P) though.

    Mindbender is still better than solace IMO. Its just so much more damage, however the real benefit of solace is that it makes it easier to stack evangelism for when you are getting focused.

    Desperate prayer is a very powerfull CD for survival. With grace stakced on you and potentially archangel say 10% this heals for 42.9% of your HP and its instant/non interuptible. They might take away inner focus interrupt protection, so I think it will be pretty hard to survive without it.

    On the other hand spectral guise is our only reliable anti-cc mechanism now that phantasm is gone and its really great for getting fears against pillar humping healers.

    Does phantasm suck now? The movement protection is nice, if you have a melee partner who can slow and its pretty important for getting out or undispellable roots/snares.

    I think the main benefit to disc however is the warrior nerfs.

  4. #4
    I've actually been seeing more and more Disc players above 2.2k recently, and most of them are doing quite well. Disc surprisingly feels good currently with maxed gear, I'm a bit worried if we will be overpowered next patch.

  5. #5
    High Overlord Raysere's Avatar
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    Don't feel like writing a long, sensible in-depth post right now so I'll just throw out my responses to the posts so far in no specific order:

    Purge glyph: Breaks CC. You often want to Purge down CC'ed players for swaps, really not worth it.

    Penance Glyph: Gut feeling is that penance is so short a channel that it's not really that valuable for cast-los'ing... need to see how it work out in-game. I use it in PvE a lot and I can't say I ever find myself missing it while PvPing. Changed my mind, I really like it after trying it a bit.

    FLCD: People need to stop underestimating it. It procs more often then you'd expect, it can proc from procs. One less cast to be kicked on is valuable. You can use it in conjunction with spirit shell for an extra free 70k+ shield if everything's topped already. Considering how Mindbender tends to just get 'accidently' CC'ed/snared off target, I don't really feel it's as valuable as people think. Only reason to take mindbender in my eyes is damage.

    Solace: Trying it atm on PTR as FLCD is bugged and doesn't work. First impression: it's not really convenient or easy to remember to use it every 10secs.

    Guise: If you guise with a shield up, it won't break from DoTs. Useful for getting fears. Can play mindgames with people trying to guess which way you're running at them. If you Guise scatter the clone can eat traps. Can allow an extra few seconds for Rogue partners to get a good opener. Seen some people waste valuable CDs into the clone if you guise when they don't expect it. I tend to take it against non cleaves, Bulwark is more valuable vs cleaves imo. Havent used DP a lot this expansion. Felt bulwark (despite being dispel-able, won't be in 5.2) was more valuable in most situations as I usualy die in stuns/silences, where i'd be unable to DP anyway. Maybe I need to try it, was very valuable in the past.

    Last tier talents: They do break CC. They can be used while locked out (kicked, pummeled etc for those who somehow still don't understand basic game terms). Halo isn't all that useful as a heal as it will never heal you for the maximum amount. Won't knock out of stealth in 5.2 anyway, won't see much use. DStar is very good, can crit you twice for 50k+. Instant, learn to aim it well (ie. hit both your team-mates) and it can do a lot of healing. Awareness is really key to not breaking CC with them, I've not had any issue with it unless partners don't call their cc and we get unlucky.

    Phantasm: Removal of untargetability isn't on PTR yet so no actual testing. It's definatly less attractive as a talent. I feel like the freedom alone isn't going to be much use against cleave, might see some use vs Wizards. Realised how stupid this sounds... I guess i might use it vs cleaves with lots of undispelable roots or snares... vs wizards i'd take feathers for sure. Need to wait and see how PTR pans out. Angelic Feather is actually really nice, it's just currently overshadowed so much by Phantasm.
    Last edited by Raysere; 2013-02-03 at 08:52 PM.

  6. #6
    A few people have said warrior nerfs are huge buffs for disc, which I agree with. However, DK's have always countered us harder than warriors (aside from warriors being op this season) and they are getting buffed. I am still scared of any combination of dk / warrior / rogue / hunter / feral mongo-cleaving the priest all game. Probably will lead to full resil gemming, and having to play with a rogue to peel for us.

    The thing that is exciting is that some people have found disc is fairly good when fully geared. This may indicate we are going to scale fairly well with gear and have more of an advantage next season.

    In my limited (undergeared) testing I like FDCL too. Procs a crazy amount, I just wish it would proc from penance.

    I hear what you're saying about the purge glyph, but I was thinking more about RMP openers. The extra pressure helps, and while we are not as offensive as we used to be, purge glyph, mindbender, offensive penance could be strong. Not to mention putting a psyfiend in your rogues bomb!

  7. #7
    High Overlord Raysere's Avatar
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    DKs really, really hurt on current PTR. However, I feel I can survive them. Just gotta get used to managing Necrotic strikes again. Monks, on the other hand, are a whole different Kung Fu fighting other story...

    Playing a lot of PTR atm since playing live is depressing after trying PTR changes. I can try to answer any specific questions people have, not really good at writing monologues on the general state of specs etc.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Cedrich View Post
    DKs really, really hurt on current PTR. However, I feel I can survive them. Just gotta get used to managing Necrotic strikes again. Monks, on the other hand, are a whole different Kung Fu fighting other story...

    Playing a lot of PTR atm since playing live is depressing after trying PTR changes. I can try to answer any specific questions people have, not really good at writing monologues on the general state of specs etc.
    What is your opinion on dpriest survivability vs. cleaves? Its always been low, but how is it on the PTR. Is it significantly lower than rsham/rdruid (I would expect it to be lower than hpal).

    Have you had any success SWD'ing poly/scatter/blind?

    What is penance ticking for offensively/defensively?

  9. #9
    High Overlord Raysere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by junn View Post
    What is your opinion on dpriest survivability vs. cleaves? Its always been low, but how is it on the PTR. Is it significantly lower than rsham/rdruid (I would expect it to be lower than hpal).
    Hmm... Not sure I can give a proper answer for this. Melee are still scary, especially the buffed DKs and Windwalkers. I'm not sure how it compares to other healers, probably about the same as Shaman. I'm playing with 200ms+ latency on PTR, which means I rarely manage to juke anything which makes melee feel 10x scarier then they actually are. It feels slightly easier to get away using Fade for the freedom rather then to avoid ranged CC, and glyphing Penance to be castable while moving seems helpful.

    Quote Originally Posted by junn View Post
    Have you had any success SWD'ing poly/scatter/blind?
    Poly/Blind, yes pretty easy. I was never very good at scatters, truth be told. It'll be more important without Phantasm, so I guess i'll get plenty practice...

    Quote Originally Posted by junn View Post
    What is penance ticking for offensively/defensively?
    Heals for 42,500~ a tick, no evangelisim, 54,000~ with 5 stacks.

    Damages for 28,000~ per tick, no evang. 36.000~ with 5 stacks.
    Last edited by Raysere; 2013-02-06 at 12:41 AM.

  10. #10
    Thanks for the responses.

    I guess its nothing new to have to play with classes that can peel really well (mage/rogue) in order to survive the melee train. Might have to do a lot of glyph/talent swapping as we have some that are very specifically useful against casters/melee.

    I saw people complaining about the fade change too, but I kind of feel like 5s freedom could be great. Probably less of a nerf than people are thinking.

    Penance buff sounds awesome! The glyph is so strong (from my testing on live with contendors gear ) as you can pop out from LOS, start your channel, and go back to LOS nearly instantly. Unless you have someone spamming their instant CC button they will never get you, and with blood fear going away the instant, ranged cc is much more limited.

  11. #11
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    Angelic Feather: Feeling like I don't have the globals to spare to make good use of it.

    Body & Soul: Love it, even in its nerfed state. It's enough to put distance between you and melee to get casts off. Pretty obvious use for helping melee partners get where they need to be.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Cedrich View Post
    Angelic Feather: Feeling like I don't have the globals to spare to make good use of it.

    Body & Soul: Love it, even in its nerfed state. It's enough to put distance between you and melee to get casts off. Pretty obvious use for helping melee partners get where they need to be.
    Body and Soul nerf was cancelled. Could help us be competitive with Hpal's for cleaves as they are often taken for their freedoms. I dont fully understand the changes to rapture yet, but it appears they want us to cast PWS more, which makes this talent even more attractive.

    Change to resil/healing triples (assuming ~67% resil) the healing that atonement does through Penance & Holy fire (Smite too, but I wont ever be casting Smite). I have a feeling that this may even be overpowered, as Penance already hits pretty hard on a non-resil target, plus its getting a 20% buff.

    Holy fire instant is awesome too. I could see myself using this on CD as dmg/healing combo is huge.

    -
    Edited for a thought:

    Does atonement healing stack grace? Will crits stack aegis?
    Last edited by junn; 2013-02-07 at 06:37 PM.

  13. #13
    High Overlord Raysere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by junn View Post
    Body and Soul nerf was cancelled. Could help us be competitive with Hpal's for cleaves as they are often taken for their freedoms. I dont fully understand the changes to rapture yet, but it appears they want us to cast PWS more, which makes this talent even more attractive.

    Change to resil/healing triples (assuming ~67% resil) the healing that atonement does through Penance & Holy fire (Smite too, but I wont ever be casting Smite). I have a feeling that this may even be overpowered, as Penance already hits pretty hard on a non-resil target, plus its getting a 20% buff.

    Holy fire instant is awesome too. I could see myself using this on CD as dmg/healing combo is huge.

    -
    Edited for a thought:

    Does atonement healing stack grace? Will crits stack aegis?
    B&S: Yay.

    Rapture: flat -25% on PW:S mana cost. nerfed to 150% of spirit value as mana and procs now only take into account spirit from gear, not extra spirit from trinket procs and Mana Tide which make rapture returns insane. Won't affect me as I obviously don't play with a Resto Shaman and I don't use PvE trinkets in PvP.

    Live: Shield costs 18,300 and in my gear rapture restores 16,160 mana.

    PTR: Shield costs 13,725 and in the same gear, will restore 12,120 mana.

    In both cases, a Shield costs 1.13 times more than the rapture return, so it offsets the cost of one PW:S every 12s by exactly the same amount. It's actually a decent buff if you're casting PW:S more often then once every 12 seconds for Rapture, which is often the case in PvP. The intent was to nerf rapture as a PvE regen mechanic.

    Holy Fire + Atonement + Divine Aegis: ~25k (50k crit) (+ tiny bit more from DoT) Holy Fire Attonement heals on target dummy. It can proc Aegis if the heal crits. Just proced a 34k Aegis on 0 Resil. It's something, if only a little something.

    It came out today that Battle Fatigue (the -30% invisible debuff to healing for PvP combat) isn't functional on the PTR right now. This pretty much means that all opinions on the overall state of Disc survivability are now null and void. I should have known something was up, I did feel like my heals were healing for extraordinarily large amounts, but I guess I was too busy enjoying my class again to put 2+2 together... I'm a little worried about what it will be like when Fatigue is fixed though, I'm certainly not unkillable without it if people play their classes right and don't get juked 24/7 like utter morons and toss silences into Aura Mastery. Will have to see how it goes in next build...

  14. #14
    I have heard a lot of people suggesting that if priests ignored the battle fatigue debuff it could help balance. That coupled with druids only partially being affected by battle fatigue.

    @ 25k dmg on zero resil, Holy fire will only hit for <10k dmg, and will only heal for 17.5k (1-.3*25k), and half of that when it heals me. Not as good as I thought it would be, and not worth the mana. The dot it leaves it negligible from what I remember.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by junn View Post
    I am getting excited about 5.2 disc PVP, and I wanted to get some discussion going about talents and glyphs as I have not yet played disc this expansion (I played ~2k last season).
    No reason too. Only healer worse then Disc is holy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie View Post
    I still don't see the changes we're getting making us even close to as strong as palas/shamans though.
    Very true.


    Quote Originally Posted by junn View Post
    A few people have said warrior nerfs are huge buffs for disc, which I agree with. However, DK's have always countered us harder than warriors
    Warriors have always countered us harder then DKs. We could dispel most of a DKs damage.
    but I was thinking more about RMP openers. The extra pressure helps, and while we are not as offensive as we used to be, purge glyph, mindbender, offensive penance could be strong. Not to mention putting a psyfiend in your rogues bomb!
    Ain't going to be RMP anymore. Going to be RM/Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Cedrich View Post
    In both cases, a Shield costs 1.13 times more than the rapture return, so it offsets the cost of one PW:S every 12s by exactly the same amount. It's actually a decent buff if you're casting PW:S more often then once every 12 seconds for Rapture.
    It's actually three times every 12 seconds, but right enough.

  16. #16
    Is this really all that bad? how does it affect other healers? If it lowers Disc's numbers it should lower theirs too. Right?

  17. #17
    Problem is that disc has never been much of a healing throughput spec. Pal/Sham/Druid have always had better overall healing than disc (even when you include absorbs) and thats why most disc comps have been about burst, and not needing to heal large amounts (RMP/Vanguards for example). However the healing we did just fell even further behind with pve balancing, as shields are so powerful in PVE when you are paired with another healer.

    Disc used to bring to the table being offsenive with fear, shadowfiend, MS, MB, double offensive dispel, MD. We lost 1/2 of those, and got a 15s CD on MD.

    On top of losing all of this, pallies, shamans and druids all got more cc and dmg. Pals got blind, rebuke and repent. Shams got capacitor and stormlash. Druids got symbiosis, ursols/mighty bash, and typhoon.

    I am still excited to try Disc out in 5.2, but the more I think about it, the more pessimistic I get. Comps (and RBG groups) need a reason to take a Disc over the other healers, and while I think Disc is getting better, the other healers continue to bring too much to the table.
    Last edited by junn; 2013-02-09 at 12:23 AM.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by junn View Post
    While I think Disc is getting better, the other healers continue to bring too much to the table.
    Yes. Other healers bring better CC, more sustainability, more survivability (due to the CC). Disc may bring slightly higher damage now, but 5.2 was basically 10% focused will, and three glyph slots to change. However, two of those should have been baseline and we also lost Phantasm, which was devastating.

    RE RMP switching to Mistweavers: Natural progression. Monks are designed to do close to the same damage, have more CC (Paralyze) and require a lot less babystting. A mage hiding in his Ring of Peace will be casting away like a bug in a rug.

  19. #19
    I haven't been following the PTR changes closely enough, do MW monks get ROP? If they do its scary.

    Cedrich, have you been playing any more on the PTR?

  20. #20
    High Overlord Raysere's Avatar
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    RoP is a talent, it's on teh same tier as leg sweep iirc.


    I've played like, 2 BGs on the PTR since my last post. I don't feel like its worth playing till Battle Fatigue is fixed.

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