1. #1

    Min/Maxing Gems and Gear

    I consider myself a fairly good DK and I am always willing and wanting to learn and min/max my character. So I have two simple questions. What is the official BiS or is there even one? and How should I be gemming? Right now I am gemming based off my stat weights in SimulationCraft. Which atm are roughly STR = 3.06 and Haste = 1.86. So that means I am gemming almost straight haste. Is that actually the best route? Also, with the whole gearing situation. This tier has a boat load of hit gear. So should I be breaking socket bonuses to avoid going over? or Should I gem something like Haste/stam to get the socket bonus. I tend to do a lot of research and I can't find a definitive answer. I would like responses from people that actually have done the math and theory crafting and not someone that is just posting what EJ, Icy Veins, Noxxic, or Robot says. Basically I want to know the best way to min/max.

    Thanks in advance.

  2. #2
    How should I be gemming? Right now I am gemming based off my stat weights in SimulationCraft. Which atm are roughly STR = 3.06 and Haste = 1.86. So that means I am gemming almost straight haste. Is that actually the best route?
    Assuming that you play picture perfect (in a realistic scenario haste will always be a little lower than simcraft indicates) in a single target situation that's probably true. However str is stronger in aoe situations (which is quite important in the current content). If you truly want to mini-max you could regem based on the (progression) fight. If you want to gem one way, stick with str as long as the values are reasonably close.

    Also, with the whole gearing situation. This tier has a boat load of hit gear. So should I be breaking socket bonuses to avoid going over?
    Are you unable to reforge out of all of it? Hit past the cap has no (or little) value, so if you can't avoid that while going for the socket bonus don't take the bonus (if it isn't worth more than the 80 str you get for it). In practice there's quite few, but some, socket bonuses that are worth to skip. Simply compare the value of a 160 str (or if you prefer that a 320 haste) gem to the hybrid gem you'd have to place in the socket+the bonus. If the stats you gain from the socket bonus+the hybrid gem are worth less than the pure gem, skip the bonus.

    or Should I gem something like Haste/stam to get the socket bonus.
    For 2H:
    Stamina has a very minor value for a dps. You'd have to be in a very specific situation to even consider a stamina gem: Unable to reforge out of hit to get below the cap while also having so strong socket bonuses that you don't want to give them up in favor of a pure str/haste gem. In practice, no you shouldn't need to gem stamina in any realistic situations.

    DW:
    Hit still has some value past the cap, never gem stamina.

    I tend to do a lot of research and I can't find a definitive answer.
    Not really sure that this would take a lot of effort to figure out, but you're welcome.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie View Post
    Assuming that you play picture perfect (in a realistic scenario haste will always be a little lower than simcraft indicates) in a single target situation that's probably true. However str is stronger in aoe situations (which is quite important in the current content). If you truly want to mini-max you could regem based on the (progression) fight. If you want to gem one way, stick with str as long as the values are reasonably close.

    Are you unable to reforge out of all of it? Hit past the cap has no (or little) value, so if you can't avoid that while going for the socket bonus don't take the bonus (if it isn't worth more than the 80 str you get for it). In practice there's quite few, but some, socket bonuses that are worth to skip. Simply compare the value of a 160 str (or if you prefer that a 320 haste) gem to the hybrid gem you'd have to place in the socket+the bonus. If the stats you gain from the socket bonus+the hybrid gem are worth less than the pure gem, skip the bonus.

    For 2H:
    Stamina has a very minor value for a dps. You'd have to be in a very specific situation to even consider a stamina gem: Unable to reforge out of hit to get below the cap while also having so strong socket bonuses that you don't want to give them up in favor of a pure str/haste gem. In practice, no you shouldn't need to gem stamina in any realistic situations.

    Not really sure that this would take a lot of effort to figure out, but you're welcome.
    Thanks for the reply. Yes with matching sockets and the gear I have I am unable to reforge out of enough hit. I sit at roughly 8.5%. I need to get some different pieces like the helm of Feng. But with our raiding schedule (8hrs a week) we don't have time to go do MSV. So Gemming Str and Str/Hst is probably better in the long run? The reason why I asked this is because I see conflicting view everywhere I've looked. One site says pure haste another says str/haste, and simcraft tells me haste.

  4. #4
    Try running a full-haste profile in simcraft set to 'Heavy Movement', you'll see a pretty notable drop in DPS, Haste does very little for your ability to AOE, and anytime you break target with the boss - Amber-Shaper says hello - Haste takes a dip in value, because Strength starts to give you more damage per-rune, while haste just gives you more runes per minute.

    Haste Gemming is EXCELLENT for any fight where you get to sit there and parse, anywhere else and it ranges from an even break to a straight-out loss.
    Vampire Zombie Werewolf

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Murdos View Post
    Try running a full-haste profile in simcraft set to 'Heavy Movement', you'll see a pretty notable drop in DPS, Haste does very little for your ability to AOE, and anytime you break target with the boss - Amber-Shaper says hello - Haste takes a dip in value, because Strength starts to give you more damage per-rune, while haste just gives you more runes per minute.

    Haste Gemming is EXCELLENT for any fight where you get to sit there and parse, anywhere else and it ranges from an even break to a straight-out loss.
    Thank you. This makes sense.

  6. #6
    This isn't to say Haste is bad, no haste is GREAT, but it's the reason why Strength is still valued so high. Hitting harder sometimes outweighs hitting more often.
    Vampire Zombie Werewolf

  7. #7
    how exactly do u break the target on amber shaper? u always have boss to hit, or small globs or big add, and they all should be standing in 1 place. max break u can get there is 1s after massive stomp.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by hir0shima View Post
    how exactly do u break the target on amber shaper? u always have boss to hit, or small globs or big add, and they all should be standing in 1 place. max break u can get there is 1s after massive stomp.
    So you never break people out of constructs, or get asked to clean up adds, or get Reshape Life, or have to move out of puddles?

    Again, if you get the wonderful responsibility-free job of sitting on the boss and DPSing constantly, Haste is fine. Amber-Shaper is a good example of a fight where a Good Frost DK is doing more then tunneling the boss or tunneling the Monstrosity. The fight is very chaotic, and does require the boss to be moved pretty frequently - more if you're stacking tight, since the burning amber will be deposited more often then the constructs can absorb it.

    I suppose if you're doing the two-construct strategy to keep Destabilize stacked on the Boss while the monstrosity is up it might work, but we're not here to discuss individual raid strategy, and your thinly-veiled attempt to discredit me was kind of cute, my logic still stands.
    Vampire Zombie Werewolf

  9. #9
    Anyone know what the true bis is?

  10. #10
    For 2H Frost? Pretty sure In all actuality that EJ's list still holds up best. They're usually pretty good at getting actual gear lists done correctly.
    Vampire Zombie Werewolf

  11. #11
    High Overlord Jarg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Amygdala
    Posts
    111
    Keep in mind that haste losts its value because of AMS RP return, gem for strength, thats the way to go, which leaves (DEPENDS on socket bonus): Red= 160str, Yellow: 80str+160hastee, Blue=80str+160 hit.

    about socket bonuses: out tier chest got 2 yellow sockets and +120crit socket bonus if we assume the stat weights are: str: 3, haste:1,8, crit: 1,5 that means:

    using 2*fierce gem (80str+160haste)= (3*160)+(1,8*320)+(1,5*120)=480+576+180=1236
    using 2*str gem=3*320=960

    with these stat weights using the hybrid gems would be better. where you are not sure about the worth of the socket bonus just do this and you will see if its worth it.
    (not like it matters that much, i would use every socket bonus as it gives something worthy, just because i like more green texts on my items

  12. #12
    I too am having issues with gems and stat weights from Sim-C. Using my current gear

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...s/Jocho/simple

    I have been gemming for Haste.

    But running Sim-C today, I'm getting Str: 2.44, Crit 1.01, Haste .58, Mastery .73. Does this seem right that Crit is pulling so far ahead of Haste here? I understand the Str part got that. But do these number seem right.

    Also, one last note, when simming should I also be scaling for Hit, Exp, Wpnd damage and AP also? Or should I just be doing Str, Crit, Haste, Mastery?

    I'm using Sim-C build 510-9 @ 10000 Interations using Heavy Movement for fight style.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-04 at 05:51 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Murdos View Post
    Try running a full-haste profile in simcraft set to 'Heavy Movement', you'll see a pretty notable drop in DPS, Haste does very little for your ability to AOE, and anytime you break target with the boss - Amber-Shaper says hello - Haste takes a dip in value, because Strength starts to give you more damage per-rune, while haste just gives you more runes per minute.

    Haste Gemming is EXCELLENT for any fight where you get to sit there and parse, anywhere else and it ranges from an even break to a straight-out loss.
    Ok...what constitutes a "Heavy movement" fight? Is it switching targets a lot like Amber Shaper or is a fight light Garalon where you are (can) moving a lot but often hitting one target for a lenghty period of time?

    I did sims with Haste gems at Heavy Movement and sims with Str gems and Heavy Movement and you're correct Str pulls ahead. But then I also simed with the same setting with Light Movement and Haste pulled ahead by about 1.5k dps.
    Last edited by Swiftyshammy; 2013-02-04 at 05:18 PM.

  13. #13
    Garalon is a decent example, yeah, because chances are you're on Leg Duty, which means you're moving around a LOT. However that is mitigated a bit by the fact you can melee his body pretty much the entire fight.

    Heavy Movement is basically any fight where you spend the majority of it chasing your target, or something where there's lots of target breaking or switching. I tend to think of fights like Garalon and Amber-Shaper where the boss needs to be kited and there's adds that need to be manageds, or Tsulong where you'll be running out in Daylight phases to chain soul-reaper on Unstable Sha.

    Anytime you have to hold a rune set to get in range of a desired target is a place where haste starts to take a minor to major dip, because then with runes at a premium, damage-per-rune becomes superior to more runes.
    Vampire Zombie Werewolf

  14. #14
    Speaking of min maxing....
    Starshatter HC with 2 upgrades
    or
    Shinka normal 2 upgrades 500 strength gem and a 160 str gem?

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Harzaka View Post
    Speaking of min maxing....
    Starshatter HC with 2 upgrades
    or
    Shinka normal 2 upgrades 500 strength gem and a 160 str gem?
    Whichever has more Weapon Damage will win.
    Vampire Zombie Werewolf

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Harzaka View Post
    Speaking of min maxing....
    Starshatter HC with 2 upgrades
    or
    Shinka normal 2 upgrades 500 strength gem and a 160 str gem?
    Depends on your gear also...for me Starshatter HC doesnt even come close, even with the 2 upgrades.

  17. #17
    Dreadlord vmagik's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Acherus
    Posts
    855
    Quote Originally Posted by Harzaka View Post
    Speaking of min maxing....
    Starshatter HC with 2 upgrades
    or
    Shinka normal 2 upgrades 500 strength gem and a 160 str gem?
    As 2h frost probably starshatter, sim it, will be close.

    As unholy definitely shin'ka
    Amazing signature courtesy of Shyama

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •