1. #1

    Couple of Combat Questions?

    Posted on the official WoW forums a few days ago, still no help, so thought I'd ask here.

    I have the majority of the combat rotation down, keep SnD Up, Rupture at 5 CP, and Eviscerate if both are up, etc. (CP rotation, the rest is simple, XD)

    But I have a question in regards to this. I'll do a few scenarios.

    1. SnD is at 5-6 seconds left, Rupture is at 13 seconds left. I have 5 combo points. Do I refresh SnD early, or use Eviscerate and refresh SnD with however many CP I can manage before it runs out?
    2. SnD is at 5-6 seconds left, Rupture is at 5-6 seconds left. I have 5 combo points. Do I refresh Rupture early, SnD early then Rupture at next 5 CP, or use Eviscerate and refresh SnD > Rupture?

    As in, what is the priority for re-applying, and is it detrimental to refresh either SnD or Rupture early? Or should I only Rupture/Evis at 5 CP and refresh SnD with however many I have left at the time of it about to drop off?

    And one other thing, Shadowcraft tells me Elemental Force does ~500 more DPS per weapon than Windsong. How reliable is that? I've always been told Windsong is better, or is it because using slow/slow, EF pulls ahead?

    And just one last side note: Upgrading my belt to the Shieldwall one or upgrading my Raid Finder Claw of Shek'zeer both come out to a 1000 dps increase on Shadowcraft. Is there any preference I should be going for there?

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Myzou View Post
    1. SnD is at 5-6 seconds left, Rupture is at 13 seconds left. I have 5 combo points. Do I refresh SnD early, or use Eviscerate and refresh SnD with however many CP I can manage before it runs out?
    You don't have anticipation? Well, you should have it.
    And answer depends of your current insight. With no-shallow insight - just pool energy, refresh SnD then continue with rotation. With moderate-deep insight you should build 1-2 anticipation stacks with SS/RS, then pool some energy, refresh SnD and quickly build 5 more CP to refresh rupture (you should be still or already in deep insight) and transfer anticipation stacks into CP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Myzou View Post
    2. SnD is at 5-6 seconds left, Rupture is at 5-6 seconds left. I have 5 combo points. Do I refresh Rupture early, SnD early then Rupture at next 5 CP, or use Eviscerate and refresh SnD > Rupture?
    Answer is anticipation again. Regardless insight this time - build as many anticipation stacks as you can befoire refreshing rupture, clip it when there's < 2 sec left,then use SnD with whatever CP you got.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Mazius View Post
    You don't have anticipation? Well, you should have it.
    And answer depends of your current insight. With no-shallow insight - just pool energy, refresh SnD then continue with rotation. With moderate-deep insight you should build 1-2 anticipation stacks with SS/RS, then pool some energy, refresh SnD and quickly build 5 more CP to refresh rupture (you should be still or already in deep insight) and transfer anticipation stacks into CP.
    I do. However, as I am not aware if cutting it short is a detriment, that didn't really apply. :P So with no-10% insight, are you saying do nothing while energy regens, then when it's near capped, SnD early and continue the rotation? Your phrasing is a bit weird there.

    Then with 20-30% insight, just build anticipation til before SnD expires, and refresh rupture (prematurely?) with 5 CP while insight is still up?

    Answer is anticipation again. Regardless insight this time - build as many anticipation stacks as you can befoire refreshing rupture, clip it when there's < 2 sec left,then use SnD with whatever CP you got.
    That one is simple to follow. :P

    And any comment on the other 2 questions?

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Myzou View Post
    So with no-10% insight, are you saying do nothing while energy regens, then when it's near capped, SnD early and continue the rotation?
    If you nearly capped - better ss/rs once and clip SnD with one anticipation charge.
    Capping energy is biggest possible dps loss.
    Quote Originally Posted by Myzou View Post
    Then with 20-30% insight, just build anticipation til before SnD expires, and refresh rupture (prematurely?) with 5 CP while insight is still up?
    No, build anticipation and refresh SnD, then try to build another 5 cp till rupture (or anticipation) expires
    Quote Originally Posted by Myzou View Post
    And any comment on the other 2 questions?
    If you don't have access to better weapon - uprgade weapon 1st.
    Never re-apply rupture if there's more than 2 sec left.
    Overall rupture is not that big DPS gain and you can drop it completely from rotation.
    General idea is to skip shallow insight asap, so stack anticipation as much as possible till you get moderate insight, cap energy before deep insight and dump as many 5 cp damaging finishers as you can during deep insight.
    No idea about enchants, Dancing Steel ftw.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Myzou View Post
    Posted on the official WoW forums a few days ago, still no help, so thought I'd ask here.

    I have the majority of the combat rotation down, keep SnD Up, Rupture at 5 CP, and Eviscerate if both are up, etc. (CP rotation, the rest is simple, XD)

    But I have a question in regards to this. I'll do a few scenarios.

    1. SnD is at 5-6 seconds left, Rupture is at 13 seconds left. I have 5 combo points. Do I refresh SnD early, or use Eviscerate and refresh SnD with however many CP I can manage before it runs out?
    2. SnD is at 5-6 seconds left, Rupture is at 5-6 seconds left. I have 5 combo points. Do I refresh Rupture early, SnD early then Rupture at next 5 CP, or use Eviscerate and refresh SnD > Rupture?

    As in, what is the priority for re-applying, and is it detrimental to refresh either SnD or Rupture early? Or should I only Rupture/Evis at 5 CP and refresh SnD with however many I have left at the time of it about to drop off?

    And one other thing, Shadowcraft tells me Elemental Force does ~500 more DPS per weapon than Windsong. How reliable is that? I've always been told Windsong is better, or is it because using slow/slow, EF pulls ahead?

    And just one last side note: Upgrading my belt to the Shieldwall one or upgrading my Raid Finder Claw of Shek'zeer both come out to a 1000 dps increase on Shadowcraft. Is there any preference I should be going for there?
    Don't use rupture, it just complicate things and gives 1% more damage at the most.

    Refresh SnD when it is at about 1 sec left

    Pool energy/get some anticipation stacks if u have 5 CP with 5-6 sec left on SnD.

    Put dancing steel on as enchant.

    Got any armory link so i can look at your gear?

  6. #6
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...e/Lufia/simple

    Working on gearing her up. I do not raid, and although most people will probably say "Then why bother?" it's because I can.

    And I will not grind any other reps. I already did it once, and no way in hell I'm doing Golden Lotus to unlock Shado-Pan and Celestials again. So rep gear is pretty much just between Klaxxi and Shieldwall. :P

    And if Dancing Steel was an option, I wouldn't be asking. I'm not about to throw 5k on an enchant. That's like, 3 months of farming for me. That's one perk of not being a raider, I don't need the expensive as heck enchants, as most people just assume my raid finder/heroic dungeon weapons are temporary.

    As for the reforging, as I know you'll comment on the expertise/hit - I just changed some gear and haven't had time to reforge, as I'm busy trying to valor cap 2 other toons this week. -.-; Though, looking at my armory made me realize I still have my gloves enchanted as assassination. I shall have to fix that whenever I get on Lufia again, lol, and it made me realize my cape isn't enchanted. Bleh. Bracers are temporary, hence the non-enchant on those.

  7. #7
    Try to maximise yellow insight time by going through no/green fast and then pooling energy in yellow as much as you can. Also you usually want to refresh snd as close to it's end as you can, except when you are in yellow insight have 10 cps (5 + 5 anticipation charges) and snd has less than (or is close to) 15-17 ish (basically 12 + nr. of insight stacks needed for red) seconds so you don't have to refresh in red insight.

    If you have to choose between clipping snd or wasting energy by capping out, it's better to refresh snd or rupture. But as others have said going with a high uptime rupture is not as much of a dps gain ( it still is a gain but completely messing up your cycles just to keep it ticking is not worth it) so you might skip it completely.

    On the upgrade question, ask yourself will you probably be getting a weapon upgrade soon (e.g normal claw version), same for the belt. But I'd say go with the weapon upgrade if you can't decide about that.
    I think the optimal pre dancing steel enchants were windsong/elemental force, but the difference between that and double windforce is very very small.

  8. #8
    All of the "pool here or use this" regarding insight and abilities... I'm not entirely sure is worth your effort. If anyone's able to conveniently dig up the math Ryme did calculating DPS gain/loss for trying to minimize no-insight or maximize deep-insight, please quote it here, but iirc we were looking at <.1% damage difference between the two options and not pooling energy was ahead in pretty much every circumstance.

    Letting rupture drop is not a big issue. If you're looking at clipping rupture or clipping SnD, evsicerate. Outside deep insight, the most important thing is to be pushing yourself forward to the next insight. Any fancy weaving that causes you to pool energy shortly before switching insights, causes you to energy cap, clips rupture instead of using eviscerate, or distracts you well enough to get you killed, is a DPS loss. If rupture is a DPS gain at an insight, it's the same relative gain to eviscerate at all insight levels, and shouldn't generally affect your decision-making process regarding rupture.

    P.S.: I know this is primarily a really in-depth questioning thread, but just in case it's missed: dropping rupture on single target completely is approximately a 1% loss as mentioned earlier, and in any blade flurry situation, don't use it. I know, that's like saying "have you tried turning your computer off and on again," but it needs to be said >.>
    Last edited by Kael; 2013-02-02 at 07:00 PM.

  9. #9
    Before starting to argue how/when/what to do with a Rupture in your rotation, does anyone know exactly how valuable a running Rupture actually is? What kind of end-result will it provide? How dramatic is the dps-difference? Are we looking at something like 7-10% additional dps? Or merely 1-3%?

  10. #10
    I'm not sure if SimC or Shadowcraft are more clear on this point, and I don't have the know-how to switch things around in the ShC engine, BUT a real quick run of SimC with/without rupture (just removing the lines for it) on SimC shows the OP losing 1.3% of damage (880 DPS) for not using it at all. On the profile, rupture is lower DPS than Eviscerate, but higher DPE (more energy for more CP and quicker AR/SB yatta yatta). It's a loss, but if you're having any trouble with the rotation, that's the first thing to cut out.

    For comparison's sake: dropping rupture is a DPS loss, but if you drop rupture and put DS on both weapons, you're still gaining nearly 2.5k DPS, meaning double DS replacing double WS is worth almost 4 times as much as using rupture (in that gear; 880 loss for rupture, 3.3k gain for DS/DS).
    Last edited by Kael; 2013-02-02 at 11:44 PM.

  11. #11
    1.3% (1-2%) seems like a miniscule amount considering how much of a pain in the ass it is to use. If your calculations are somewhat correct, I'll be dropping it from my bars in an instant.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Mugajak View Post
    I'm not sure if SimC or Shadowcraft are more clear on this point, and I don't have the know-how to switch things around in the ShC engine, BUT a real quick run of SimC with/without rupture (just removing the lines for it) on SimC shows the OP losing 1.3% of damage (880 DPS) for not using it at all. On the profile, rupture is lower DPS than Eviscerate, but higher DPE (more energy for more CP and quicker AR/SB yatta yatta). It's a loss, but if you're having any trouble with the rotation, that's the first thing to cut out.

    For comparison's sake: dropping rupture is a DPS loss, but if you drop rupture and put DS on both weapons, you're still gaining nearly 2.5k DPS, meaning double DS replacing double WS is worth almost 4 times as much as using rupture (in that gear; 880 loss for rupture, 3.3k gain for DS/DS).
    Unless I somehow end up with regular/heroic weapons, I won't be dropping DS on any weapons in this game until Sha Crystal prices go down. :P I'm well aware that is a big part of my DPS though. I still get 1-3 on DPS in LFR, so it's not too big of a deal for me. I was simply curious if Elemental Force actually does outweight Windsong like Shadowcraft suggests.

    I will try ditching rupture next week when I pop on my rogue again. I knew it was a DPS loss, but not that minute. Dear God. On top of that, isn't it technically possible for it to be a DPS gain to drop it should eviscerate crit enough times?

  13. #13
    Sure, but it's equally possible for you to get all crit rupture ticks and outpower your average eviscerate as well :P

    I wasn't taking a dig at your enchanting decisions, but rather at how little rupture counts. On WS vs. EF - EF should* be ahead in low gear and behind in higher gear because of the RPPM system and stat scaling - EF damage will remain almost the same, but 1,500 crit/haste/mastery increases in DPS value as your agility, weapon damage, and other stats increase.

    I generally recommend anyone learning combat skip rupture, particularly because in Combat's "special place" (cleeeeeave) you don't use it at all because Flurry doesn't copy bleeds. Adding rupture back in is more of a "last tier" of learning the combat spec, along with minute things like pooling energy if your Elegon trinket CD is coming up in the next 3 seconds, holding onto anticipation charges for the next insight, and holding KS off for 1 GCD if you can push insight in it. Not that any of this is really difficult compared to the decisions Subtlety has had in the past, or other classes are faced with, but it requires a lot in split-second decisions rather than planning.

    Sticking to the basics and dealing with mechanics is the "strength" of combat right now, although in the LFR you may find staying behind the boss (why is it running halfway across the room again?) to be more difficult than the rotation.
    Last edited by Kael; 2013-02-03 at 02:10 AM.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Mugajak View Post
    Sticking to the basics and dealing with mechanics is the "strength" of combat right now, although in the LFR you may find staying behind the boss (why is it running halfway across the room again?) to be more difficult than the rotation.
    Oh trust me, I want to slap some LFR tanks, like on Protectors in ToES. The first one is always constantly moving, even though you only need to move him out of puddles. :S

    I got the rotation with Rupture down pretty well, just wasn't sure what to do with combo points/etc. xD But I will try it without.

    So, for my gear (linked above), is Shadowcraft right that EF will pull ahead of WS?

  15. #15
    I'm not given any reason to think Shadowcraft is wrong under many circumstances, but as you gear up (you can check this in ShC by replacing pieces) WS *should* come ahead. Up to you if you want to switch twice. They should be very close at most gear levels anyway.

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