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  1. #21
    Its not 'necessarily' no. But does it really matter? Surely the only thing that matters in a levelling dungeon is speed? If you've joined to roleplay or something, then I assume you'd queue with a group.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeavline View Post
    That would probably be beneficial, yes. And your point is that I don't? I know very well where tanks dps come from, that's not the question I had though.
    Your question indicates that you don't.

    If you did you would realise that 4 tanks in a group doesn't mean 4 people all with maxed out vengeance (which is the source of a tank's high DPS). Your vengeance and resulting DPS is as high as it is because you're the only one getting hit, with more tanks either you would still be getting hit as much giving you the same vengeance and them none (i.e. your DPS would be high but theirs would be lower than the DPS you wanted to replace with more tanks), or they'd be the ones taking the hits which would leave you vengeance-less and with less DPS. Either way your idea doesn't make 4 tanks better than 1 tank + 3 DPS.

  3. #23
    Scarab Lord Jevlin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhaktor View Post
    Its not 'necessarily' no. But does it really matter? Surely the only thing that matters in a levelling dungeon is speed? If you've joined to roleplay or something, then I assume you'd queue with a group.
    Nothing really matters. It's just a game. Wouldn't it be beneficial if said game was actually as fun as possible throughout the entire game? No?

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-02 at 01:16 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Windfury View Post
    Your question indicates that you don't.

    If you did you would realise that 4 tanks in a group doesn't mean 4 people all with maxed out vengeance (which is the source of a tank's high DPS). Your vengeance and resulting DPS is as high as it is because you're the only one getting hit, with more tanks either you would still be getting hit as much giving you the same vengeance and them none (i.e. your DPS would be high but theirs would be lower than the DPS you wanted to replace with more tanks), or they'd be the ones taking the hits which would leave you vengeance-less and with less DPS. Either way your idea doesn't make 4 tanks better than 1 tank + 3 DPS.
    For the last time, it was sarcasm. It wasn't a serious statement at all, that's why I wrote "/Smartasshatoff" at the end of the message. But I always forget that trolls will get hung up on every single word you write in a post and knead on it for hours on end. Why? Because, fuck me, that's why.
    Last edited by Jevlin; 2013-02-02 at 12:17 PM.
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  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by chipmonk View Post
    I bet you do not do 50% of damage if you just take the bosses. Dungeons are trash aoe feasts and tanks with veng get the most out of them.
    except i've also had people beat me on overall as well, some by a wide margin, but they are few and far between.

    look at it this way, dungeons are aoe trash fests like you say, but that trash fest takes up 90% of a dungeons run, if you only take bosses only dungeons would only take ~5 minutes, bad dps make it take 20, compared to about 10 if everyone is beating tank.
    that ofc also depends on the dungeon...some are just long in general

    overall counts for more than bosses for me since it's low overall that makes dungeons take forever.
    Still I cry, tears like pouring rain, Innocent is my lurid pain.

  5. #25
    Warchief Nikkaszal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
    The dps component of vengeance needs a massive nerf, like 80% reduction. Increase the threat generation component by 500% in exchange.
    No.

    I've been tanking since my warrior back in Vanilla. In those days everything a tank did hit for almost nothing but they had huge threat multipliers.

    And it was fucking aggravating and boring. Because while today tanks do less damage than DPS in content that the game is tuned around, years ago you'd literally be doing 20% of a DPS'ers output, which was ridiculous.

    Here, try this out - get a monk tank and don't hit anything with it. Just stand there and hurl Dizzying Haze at everything repeatedly. You'll keep threat even though it does no damage because it has the multiplier. And then tell me that's more fun than keeping threat because you can kick things in the face really hard.
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  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Nikkaszal View Post
    No.

    I've been tanking since my warrior back in Vanilla. In those days everything a tank did hit for almost nothing but they had huge threat multipliers.

    And it was fucking aggravating and boring. Because while today tanks do less damage than DPS in content that the game is tuned around, years ago you'd literally be doing 20% of a DPS'ers output, which was ridiculous.

    Here, try this out - get a monk tank and don't hit anything with it. Just stand there and hurl Dizzying Haze at everything repeatedly. You'll keep threat even though it does no damage because it has the multiplier. And then tell me that's more fun than keeping threat because you can kick things in the face really hard.
    This. Threat modifiers suck and would completely bork challenge modes so there's no way that's happening. Did a Scholomance heroic with a shaman yesterday pulling 120k which I'm sure is far more than your average tank pulls. Its really a non issue.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeavline View Post
    Nothing really matters. It's just a game. Wouldn't it be beneficial if said game was actually as fun as possible throughout the entire game? No?
    I don't think your fun should rely on dps being balanced in levelling content. If tanks get nerfed then the next top dps is going to be the new gripe "oh no X class get Y ability at level Z and after this point no one can compete untill 90!!!"
    Just quest if you need to be topping dps to have fun.

  8. #28
    Stood in the Fire NatureDrake's Avatar
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    For the conjured food, of course!

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  9. #29
    There is a lot a tank can do to mess up dps. Ninja pulling, jumping around so that mobs move out of plate melee's range, hold aggro poorly or only on some mobs so that dps have to be very careful about who they hit, pull the mobs into positions that block dps access, and leave lots of unpulled mobs around as you race ahead. If your dps appear to lag behind, then chances are you're giving them a bit of a hard time.

  10. #30
    Scarab Lord Gandrake's Avatar
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    i have never met a tank that has outdpsed me

    You are probably a raid geared tank (or a monk, because monks are just retarded. no argument there). I outdps the shit out of people on my Warrior when I tank.

    But look at certain specializations, like the Ret Paladin. Spec does crap damage outside of Guardian. Vengeance is passive. I always do good DPS on my War because Bloodbath and Dragon Roar are short cooldowns, and I can still do pretty good damage outside of them.

    Some specs just do really shitty damage and their cooldowns are too long to compensate for it or their class is just broken.
    grandpa died the other day and a dumb fat fuck jumped out in front of a dump truck when i be like "man im hungry, im gonna get some pizza". go to my pops' funeral, tired as fuck. get in some b-ball, broke my friends nose on accident. get home at 7:50 PM, taking mini naps, about to pass out... but gotta slay dem dragons. dat second wind

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  11. #31
    Back when I was leveling my prot warrior during Wrath, all I did was dungeons. While I wasn't doing 50% of the damage, I was still routinely doing more dps and more damage than the dps on trash and boss fights. It just so happens that tanks seem to enjoy a certain level of OPness while leveling that seems to balance out at max level. Not sure about with MoP.

  12. #32
    You know what I worry about when I do a random 5 man as either tank or dps?

    That it goes as fast and smooth as possible, I care less who tops meters.

  13. #33
    Over 9000! Wildtree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeavline View Post
    I'm not sure if it's just me being awesome at tanking but I always do 50-60% of all damage done in normal dungeons. It's only in heroics DPSers actually surpass me in damage and DPS, and even then it's only by a minuscule amount. I remember when I used to DPS in dungeons, being top dps or fighting to be was half the fun. But as it is now, it's not even a competition. Is it really necessary for tanks to have the same or higher dps than pure dps classes in dungeons? And more importantly, does tanks DPS capabilities actually ruin the fun for DPS specs?


    Edit: I'm not talking about groups with full ilvl483+ DPSers doing dungeons for shits and giggles. This is more aimed towards doing dungeons/heroics with people who are pre-90 and pre-raidgeared.
    have you tried to do the dungeons the old fashioned way already?
    Grab a pocket healer, travel there and two man the instance? Do that, and see what difference it would make for you.
    As for the damage itself.. The meters should normally reflect you being in the top overall for damage. Since it's your job to grab and tank all the trash. And it's the DPS's job to let you do just that and then chime in. On bosses you should not do the most damage, since you are essentially just the meat shield holding aggro on the boss. There the DPS should outperform you, given you are all of equally good or bad gear.
    Also, during leveling it would be somewhat crazy for a DPS class to itemize their gear. More than likely you run with DPS players, which are far off from the required Hit and Expertise ratings. That brings the damage they do down a notch, and the dps too. You may have the same problem, but it still doesn't effect your output to the same extend as it would do to lets say a caster, standing there casting for almost 2 seconds just to miss.

  14. #34
    The Lightbringer shise's Avatar
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    Hm no, you do not deal more damage than DPS's.

    Because 3 DPS > your single DPS + the healer's possible dps.

  15. #35
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    If tanks could queue as dps as well, blizzard would give them MAX VENGEANCE buff that is always up during dungeon.

    Problem is, it wouldnt expand LFR users. Tanks are already "rare" so giving ability for 4 tanks to get in one group would hurt more - or they would have to make 5mans just 5man scenarios which might as well happen - thats how useful heroic gear and heroics arenowdays.. just something to do to test out dps or "stupid stuff" and not for actual benefit.

    Also how does this surprise anyone, it was same in wotlk. You didnt even need tank on the 5mans cept for bosses..unless you had plate dps or there wasnt certain mechanics that, lets say, enraged boss to do dmg you needed to cd.
    I think I tanked most of the heroics towards end as arms because tanking just didnt matter that much
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  16. #36
    Warchief Nikkaszal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shise View Post
    Hm no, you do not deal more damage than DPS's.

    Because 3 DPS > your single DPS + the healer's possible dps.
    Heh, actually I often end up with 50-60% of total damage done in Overall as a Brewmaster =p

    But then, Brewmaster damage is silly.
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  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
    The dps component of vengeance needs a massive nerf, like 80% reduction. Increase the threat generation component by 500% in exchange.
    Good idea.
    But how would you implement it?
    If Vengeance gave Threat-% instead of AP, we would have problems with tanks who rely on AP to survive.

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