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  1. #281
    If subscriptions do not decline, then I am massively out of touch with what gamers find entertaining these days. That is certainly a possibility, and I guess it doesn't bother me if it turns out to be true.

  2. #282
    Titan Kangodo's Avatar
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    He acknowledges that there are problems in balance now.
    And there will always be balance-issues in an MMO.
    The claim was that balance used to be a lot better

  3. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by Pebrocks The Warlock View Post
    No where in Ghostcrawler's post says that PvP balance is worse than past installments. You are twisting the words of the Blue.
    No, you just can't comprehend the information.

    March 2011 Ghostcrawler states they needed to add more instant spells to combat the increase in interrupts on short CDs.

    January 2013 Ghostcrawler states the increased in instants is bad game design.

    Which therefor means it's worse than before. Their added change made things worse and now they're looking into reverting it without completely messing with some people's gameplay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    He acknowledges that there are problems in balance now.
    And there will always be balance-issues in an MMO.
    The claim was that balance used to be a lot better
    Read above and don't get too smug.

  4. #284
    Quote Originally Posted by mosely View Post
    If subscriptions do not decline, then I am massively out of touch with what gamers find entertaining these days. That is certainly a possibility, and I guess it doesn't bother me if it turns out to be true.
    Unfortunately I think many people on these forums are going to be extremely disappointed when the new numbers are released and it turns out Wow's inevitable death isn't happening as soon as they hoped.

  5. #285
    Quote Originally Posted by MasterHamster View Post
    Why didn't he consider China? Are there still people who think there's 9-10 million players in the US/EU alone?
    IF they're true (I highly doubt it) they miss, China and Korea.

  6. #286
    Titan Kangodo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldfingaz View Post
    March 2011 Ghostcrawler states they needed to add more instant spells to combat the increase in interrupts on short CDs.
    I would advise you to reread that article, because that's the opposite of what he is saying.

    If you’re worried about being interrupted because someone is chasing you, or you are chasing them, that’s a great time to use an instant spell. But actual 2.5 sec cast time spells need to have their place too and, if anything, they should be the norm.
    January 2013 Ghostcrawler states the increased in instants is bad game design.
    He says that the arms-race isn't good for the health of PvP.

    Basically, it comes down to this:
    2011: Casted spells should be used, but it's hard to balance them versus Instant-casts and interrupts.
    2013: People are using too many instant-casts and we want them to use more casted spells.

    They didn't change their plan at all, it's still the same: To find a sweet spot where spells are worth casting, even when they might get interrupted.
    The problems, according to the, were this:
    1) Interrupts were too powerful.
    2) It's either not worth it to try to cast a spell OR it's too powerful when you succeed.
    3) Instant-casts are used too much compared to casted spells.

  7. #287
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    I would advise you to reread that article, because that's the opposite of what he is saying.

    If you’re worried about being interrupted because someone is chasing you, or you are chasing them, that’s a great time to use an instant spell. But actual 2.5 sec cast time spells need to have their place too and, if anything, they should be the norm.

    He says that the arms-race isn't good for the health of PvP.

    Basically, it comes down to this:
    2011: Casted spells should be used, but it's hard to balance them versus Instant-casts and interrupts.
    2013: People are using too many instant-casts and we want them to use more casted spells.

    They didn't change their plan at all, it's still the same: To find a sweet spot where spells are worth casting, even when they might get interrupted.
    The problems, according to the, were this:
    1) Interrupts were too powerful.
    2) It's either not worth it to try to cast a spell OR it's too powerful when you succeed.
    3) Instant-casts are used too much compared to casted spells.
    Some people's children...

    You want more proof that it's further imbalanced currently than it was before? Apparently showing you posts saying "We need more instant spells" and then "We need less instant spells" isn't good enough, so here are some stats for you:

    http://www.arenastats.com/index.php?...any&mt=5&mg=20

    May 2012, 3v3 teams at any rating. Look at the percentages there. Alright, now set it to 2k, just for another reference point. RLS is between 20%-24% of the 3v3 teams. The next team in line at any rating is RMP at 17% (That is 20% vs 17%). The next team in line at 2k+ rating is RMP at 15% (That is 24% vs 15%).

    So any rating:
    RLS - 964 teams (20%)
    RMP - 833 teams (17%)

    At 2k+ rating:
    RLS - 264 teams (24%)
    RMP - 166 teams (15%)

    Now remember I gave you these teams as a reference point for the current season's numbers which can be found here: http://www.crossladder.com/arena/stats/

    Top team makeup: Warrior/Paladin/Hunter, second in line Mage/Priest/Druid

    The numbers:

    War/Pal/Hunt - 582 (8%)
    Mage/Priest/Druid - 265 (4%)

    If that doesn't scream imbalanced I don't know what does. Maybe by looking at both pages again and looking at class representation?

    Clarifications: Read the "About" on xLadder to find out how they get their information.

    EDIT: I should also note that arenastats.com is from Cataclysm, which was also horribly imbalanced as you can see by class representation.
    Last edited by Goldfingaz; 2013-02-03 at 05:44 PM.

  8. #288
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ichifails View Post
    WoW reached 12mil subs in the end of BC and dropped with the launch of WotLK only to reach 12 mil again with the China launch that was in a quarter where they had to announce the numbers so it was at that point official.

    The first hit for 12m subs was on the cusp of 2009, between patch 3.0.3 and 3.0.8 (both WotLK prep patches), and then hit 12m again around October 2010, patch 4.0.1, the Cataclysm prep patch.

    Pretty sure that made WotLK the best expansion ever. However, to those that think that subs are going to drop to 9m, the last time that happened was mid-2007: Patch 2.1.0 (the Black Temple) had only been out for a month.

    Was WoW dead during 2.1.0?
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  9. #289
    1) Most players are from China
    2) Number of players was counted at 1st of Jan, i.e. during holidays, when some players may return just because they have free time and nothing to do.

    What I want to say? I want to say, that Q4 2012 report will not show the real situation. Q1 2013 - may be.
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  10. #290
    Mechagnome Usako's Avatar
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    I have to say, I expect some loss. Annual Passes for the most part have ended for many people, and the newness of MoP has faded. At least it has for me :P

  11. #291
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    The first hit for 12m subs was on the cusp of 2009, between patch 3.0.3 and 3.0.8 (both WotLK prep patches), and then hit 12m again around October 2010, patch 4.0.1, the Cataclysm prep patch.

    Pretty sure that made WotLK the best expansion ever. However, to those that think that subs are going to drop to 9m, the last time that happened was mid-2007: Patch 2.1.0 (the Black Temple) had only been out for a month.

    Was WoW dead during 2.1.0?
    There is a vast difference between an incline to 9m and a decline to 9m i'm afraid.

  12. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by Blapis View Post
    9 million by Blizzard (which actually means 5.5 million without lies).

    Based on http://wow.realmpop.com/

    EU: 2,921,261 Characters from level 86-90 (many of them alts, and some of them already unsubbed)
    US: 2,663,053 Characters from level 86-90 (many of them alts, and some of them already unsubbed)

    That site counts every character ever made. It's ridiculous to use for sub numbers.
    Did you think we had forgotten? Did you think we had forgiven?

  13. #293
    Quote Originally Posted by Galaddriel View Post
    That site counts every character ever made. It's ridiculous to use for sub numbers.
    It only counts active characters. (Inactive characters do not show up on the armory [after a certain amount of time], nor do characters below a certain level, thus they aren't included)

    However, it simply is silly to use realmpop as information on sub numbers due to tons of players having multiple alts.

  14. #294
    Quote Originally Posted by Blapis View Post
    Minus: alts, unsubbed, you could also add multiboxers here if you are thinking about people as numbers. Also many SoR users, 10 days MoP free trials...
    Plus: people who didn't reach lvl 86 yet

    Also, there is no WoW subscription fee in China.

    I think it's kinda balanced.
    The subscriptions in China work otherwise: very much like your cell phone contracts: you pay by the minute/hour.

    China has active subscriptions counted as those who logged in effectively with paid cards during the last 30 days and paid to play for that time.

    It is their "state controlled" default system of playing games: consoles are even FORBIDDEN in China (did you know that one ?)...

    So your western figures (5.5 million active) indeed proved the approx. known figure of 50% western and 50% Asian players (as Korea also uses a mixed system).

    Besides 5 million subs only would not cover the yearly revenue from Blizzard that has been hovering around 1.2 billion and 1.4 billion dollars over the last 3 years... (depending on launched box sales).


    But I come back to the CORE of this discussion: there are NO LONGER subscription based games > 500K bracket because they almost ALL went free to play.

    So WOW won the battle of the subscriptions for 8 years in a row.


    Why discuss a game with 10 million subscriptions when the rest stands at ... 0.000.000 subs...

    That change to FREE to play MMO thingies is far more important for subscriptions than a single QQ or whine about in game content.

    In game things have hardly ANY impact on people unsubscribing.

    You need to look at the BIG picture of this industry (and paid subscriptions) and there WOW won the battle cum laude, because after 8 years WOW stood at 10 + M (on its birth day) while the rest is down the lane of free to play things...
    Last edited by BenBos; 2013-02-03 at 05:59 PM.

  15. #295
    Quote Originally Posted by BenBos View Post
    The subscriptions in China work otherwise: very much like your cell phone contracts: you pay by the minute/hour.

    China has active subscriptions counted as those who logged in effectively with paid cards during the last 30 days and paid to play for that time.

    So your western figures (5.5 million active) indeed proved the approx. known figure of 50% western and 50% Asian players (as Korea also uses a mixed system).

    Besides 5 million subs only would not cover the yearly revenue from Blizzard that has been hovering around 1.2 billion and 1.4 billion dollars over the last 3 years... (depending on launched box sales).


    But I come back to the CORE of this discussion: there are NO LONGER subscription based games > 500K bracket because they almost ALL went free to play.

    So WOW won the battle of the subscriptions for 8 years in a row.


    Why discuss a game with 10 million subscriptions when the rest stands at ... 0.000.000 subs...

    That change to FREE to play MMO thingies is far more important for subscriptions than a single QQ or whine about in game content.
    Quit making this into a game vs game thread, how have you not been infracted for derailing the thread already?

  16. #296
    Titan Kangodo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldfingaz View Post
    You want more proof that it's further imbalanced currently than it was before? Apparently showing you posts saying "We need more instant spells" and then "We need less instant spells" isn't good enough, so here are some stats for you:
    But the post didn't say that they needed more instant-spells.
    Even the opposite: He said that they wanted casted spells to be important and the to-go spell.

    SNIP
    What does that have to say about the amount of unbalance?

    Are you really using class-representation to argue about balance?
    Let's have the numbers from all brackets:
    Holy Paladin - 5.7k
    Death Knight - 5k
    Mage - 5.7k

    Balance in PvP is this: That your paladin has roughly the same chance and effort in getting 2k as your shaman, mage or any other class.

  17. #297
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldfingaz View Post
    There is a vast difference between an incline to 9m and a decline to 9m i'm afraid.
    People are still saying that "WoW is dead at X million subscribers", whether it's an incline or decline.
    37 + (3*7) + (3*7)
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  18. #298
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    But the post didn't say that they needed more instant-spells.
    Even the opposite: He said that they wanted casted spells to be important and the to-go spell.


    What does that have to say about the amount of unbalance?

    Are you really using class-representation to argue about balance?
    Let's have the numbers from all brackets:
    Holy Paladin - 5.7k
    Death Knight - 5k
    Mage - 5.7k

    Balance in PvP is this: That your paladin has roughly the same chance and effort in getting 2k as your shaman, mage or any other class.
    Can you not read? (Keep in mind, you can't use class rep in all brackets because Blizzard balances around 3s, which is where you should be taking your sample numbers from)

    May 2012, Warrior make up 269 (4%) of the players above 2k rating, where a rogue had 896 (14%) of the top 2k players during a season in cataclysm, which means there is a difference of 627.

    Or at any bracket:
    Rogue: 5345 (12%)
    Warrior: 3027 (7%)
    Difference of 2318

    Currently:
    Warrior: 4614 (17%)
    Rogue: 794 (3%)
    Difference of 3820

    Again, if this doesn't show the sheer imbalance of PvP right now to you, then you're simply blind and there's no point wasting time on you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    People are still saying that "WoW is dead at X million subscribers", whether it's an incline or decline.
    People saying a game is dead while it's on a constant incline are simply not worth speaking to, and you shouldn't try to use their misguided arguments to further strengthen your own.
    Last edited by Goldfingaz; 2013-02-03 at 06:04 PM.

  19. #299
    I expect a drop due to pvp. Short list:
    - Bots
    - Oqueue premade
    - Warriors
    - Low level fu**ed up with OP priests
    - wintrading
    - rbg exploit
    - no honor pvp weapon while introducing pvp power

    PVE is top notch though
    - but drawback: too many dailies

    I say -600k

  20. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post

    The first hit for 12m subs was on the cusp of 2009, between patch 3.0.3 and 3.0.8 (both WotLK prep patches), and then hit 12m again around October 2010, patch 4.0.1, the Cataclysm prep patch.

    Pretty sure that made WotLK the best expansion ever. However, to those that think that subs are going to drop to 9m, the last time that happened was mid-2007: Patch 2.1.0 (the Black Temple) had only been out for a month.

    Was WoW dead during 2.1.0?
    No the second 12m hit was due to WotlK release in China-Asia (Its Sep 2010, and numbers went up on next report right around after Sep), if things were good in US/EU they would not stop reporting US numbers.
    Last edited by Marooned; 2013-02-03 at 06:21 PM.
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