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  1. #41
    Herald of the Titans Matt0193's Avatar
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    I was running around on my Warrior in TB, got completely annhilated by another Warrior. Looked up his Armory and he had 62%+ PvP power (Full T2/Elite upgraded), compared to my 31% (No weapon, mostly updated Honor set). He was also Rank 1 in 3v3 and 5v5, so I would've probably had my arse handed back to me regardless.

    That's pretty much the only thing wrong with PvP. It's too reliant on getting the Weapon for the PvP power, more specifically getting a T2 upgraded weapon, to be on an even ground. With it, you're balanced. Without it, you're fucked. I understand and agree that someone with better gear should beat another. No problem with that. However, when I can't even get a hit in because I've just been dropped that fast something is definitely fucked up.
    "Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it." - Ayn Rand

  2. #42
    Sure, people like hitting for 1k then crit for 20k in pvp, it's nice seeing those small numbers, it sure helps keep pvp fun!

  3. #43
    If most people are turning a blind eye to the issue I don't think there's much of a purpose to this thread.

    "Burst is NOT crazy because I've been versing people in honor gear and none of them globaled me". "I killed that guy in full malevolent in under 6 seconds. He can do the same to me, game is balanced."

    Verse any competent player who knows how to line up his burst cds EVEN ON LIVE. Affliction locks are able to kill warriors in defensive stance through second wind within 10 seconds. Nevermind ptr where the problem is exacerbated even more. The problem already exists, I made this thread to raise awareness that it's getting worse. Apparently people enjoy playing "cc healer for 2 seconds so we can blow up that guy on their team".
    Quote Originally Posted by High Overlord Saurfang
    "I am he who watches they. I am the fist of retribution. That which does quell the recalcitrant. Dare you defy the Warchief? Dare you face my merciless judgement?"
    i7-860 @2.8GHz | Radeon HD 7770 | 8GB DDR3-1333MHz | Corsair CX 430W |

  4. #44
    cc is a bigger problem than burst

    let's give paladins instant aoe disorient for no reason - blizzard

  5. #45
    Burst is a problem but PvP power isn't the main source. CD stacking and the design of certain abilities is a bigger issue.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Niberion View Post
    You mean undergeared and unskilled players I suppose, anyone that's somewhat decently skilled and geared won't die to a rogue in the opener.
    i want u to play a resto shaman with nearly 10 k resilience and get one spell out when playing against a good and geared rogue before u die.

    Lets then discuss again.

    Im sick of getting silenced / stunned to death by rogue / mage combo, and i for sure never survived those teams longer than a few seconds, actually i often find myself to have to trinket to get even one global cd off before droping. which means either instant, healing tide, or slt, in many cases it doesnt help.
    (and yep my mates do peel as hard as they can, but its hard to peel a cloaked shadowdancing rogue and a mage that comes out of stealth and opens with pomrof)

    of course there are "those rogues", their skill exists of doing ambush backstab backstab, but those arent even near 2 k since end of cata.

    The problem is not the dmg. the problem is the 100% lockdown with double garrote, cheap, kidney, poison stun , blind, into df and /or imp cs. this lockdown is so long, that any competent team will use this time to kill u with autoattacks. Trinket is required to get of one global, before beeing locked again. One global doesnt prolong life long enough to survive this phase in most cases.

    I personally find it easier to play against the bugged hunters back then, or to survive warrior burst. U actually could try to get away, u could get heals off.

    The burst is not the problem, it would be handable if u wouldnt be perma silenced or stunned. the loss of control is the problem.
    Last edited by Holofernes; 2013-02-03 at 06:56 AM.

  7. #47
    The problem IS pvp power. I'll explain it: In full pvp gear, you get more pvp power than you do resilience. Two players in full malevolent gear even with resilience gems will do more damage to each other than two players in full pve gear or two players in full dreadful.

    And like I've stated before, a team lining up their burst wouldn't need lockdown of even a fourth of the duration you're mentioning to burn down a player Holo. I'm not saying insane cc isn't a problem. It is, but burst is a bigger issue. Every comp nowadays boils down to which team can burst someone down in the smallest window. The smaller the window the better because then there isn't as much of a need for properly shutting down the enemy healer/aid.
    Last edited by Flaks; 2013-02-03 at 06:58 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by High Overlord Saurfang
    "I am he who watches they. I am the fist of retribution. That which does quell the recalcitrant. Dare you defy the Warchief? Dare you face my merciless judgement?"
    i7-860 @2.8GHz | Radeon HD 7770 | 8GB DDR3-1333MHz | Corsair CX 430W |

  8. #48
    i remember constant bitching during wotlk about pvp and how awful it was.

    also reverting wont work. Theres all new systems and classes and abilities. We keep moving forward and find a solution for the system we have now. Cause the old solutions arent going to work.

    base solutions on the now, not nostalgia and what fit in the past. Because it wont work now.

  9. #49
    Pit Lord gutnbrg's Avatar
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    how are fire mages killing u in 2secs?

  10. #50
    Stood in the Fire
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    PvP nowadays isn't based on skill at all, its based on who has the best gear and the most OP class.

  11. #51
    Rogues and Monks are the problem on PTR. Not burst in general. Eleshams can be a bitch too as a caster.

  12. #52
    Moderator Nicola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holofernes View Post
    i want u to play a resto shaman with nearly 10 k resilience and get one spell out when playing against a good and geared rogue before u die.

    Lets then discuss again.

    Im sick of getting silenced / stunned to death by rogue / mage combo, and i for sure never survived those teams longer than a few seconds, actually i often find myself to have to trinket to get even one global cd off before droping. which means either instant, healing tide, or slt, in many cases it doesnt help.
    (and yep my mates do peel as hard as they can, but its hard to peel a cloaked shadowdancing rogue and a mage that comes out of stealth and opens with pomrof)

    of course there are "those rogues", their skill exists of doing ambush backstab backstab, but those arent even near 2 k since end of cata.

    The problem is not the dmg. the problem is the 100% lockdown with double garrote, cheap, kidney, poison stun , blind, into df and /or imp cs. this lockdown is so long, that any competent team will use this time to kill u with autoattacks. Trinket is required to get of one global, before beeing locked again. One global doesnt prolong life long enough to survive this phase in most cases.

    I personally find it easier to play against the bugged hunters back then, or to survive warrior burst. U actually could try to get away, u could get heals off.

    The burst is not the problem, it would be handable if u wouldnt be perma silenced or stunned. the loss of control is the problem.
    Even with 5k resilience I'd survive a rogue in the opener 1v1

    So, you are dying to a rogue/mage combo in the opener, yet rogues are the problem? Sorry bro, but rogues, nor mages are really the problem here, it's you and your partner failing.

    cc is a bigger problem than burst

    let's give paladins instant aoe disorient for no reason - blizzard
    Isn't that like getting nerfed? >.>

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Flaubertlives View Post
    After looking again at some numbers I had from when there was access to higher amounts of Resilience Rating (Old Disc 2 set) the nerf looks something like this

    http://i46.tinypic.com/125osq1.jpg

    Take it with a pinch of salt, it's not exact, but that's how Resilience is on Live (red) compared to PTR (yellow).

    It's a small nerf, but it's still a nerf when there's already too much damage in PvP.
    They nerfed res? That would explain a lot about ptr dmg.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Niberion View Post
    You mean undergeared and unskilled players I suppose, anyone that's somewhat decently skilled and geared won't die to a rogue in the opener.
    you are somewhat correct, Im full upgraded malv with t2 weapons (again upgraded) depending on how i choose to open, I can knock off a good 60-70%. trinket/vanish whatever they do and start again.. so no, not in the opener, but I can bring them down very shortly after the opener.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by wow View Post
    They nerfed res? That would explain a lot about ptr dmg.
    Yea that would... But Blizzard isn't getting any feedback about it so I'm afraid it might go live the way it is. If someone could post something like this on the official forums it'd be great.
    Quote Originally Posted by High Overlord Saurfang
    "I am he who watches they. I am the fist of retribution. That which does quell the recalcitrant. Dare you defy the Warchief? Dare you face my merciless judgement?"
    i7-860 @2.8GHz | Radeon HD 7770 | 8GB DDR3-1333MHz | Corsair CX 430W |

  16. #56
    The original problem is that WoW lacks a functioning interrupt system. This is why high defense always leads to endless games or mana burn/drain dickery.

  17. #57
    Moderator Nicola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    Yea that would... But Blizzard isn't getting any feedback about it so I'm afraid it might go live the way it is. If someone could post something like this on the official forums it'd be great.
    I'm pretty sure the nerf is intended because the damage reduction per % of resilience really gets out of control once you get higher numbers.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Feranor View Post
    The original problem is that WoW lacks a functioning interrupt system. This is why high defense always leads to endless games or mana burn/drain dickery.
    Thing is if you increase defense, you should also decrease heals. That will ensure people will live longer, but eventually they will still die from the same damage. They just have more time to actually press buttons (and counter the opponent) before dieing. It would have the same effect as increasing everyone's health in PvP. It would take longer to deplete the health bar, but filling it will also take longer.

    For example, double the HP in PvP. You will no longer die in a Shockwave, at the end of the Shockwave you will be at 50%. More time to press buttons and move your character. More time to outplay the opponents. Currently in arenas, there's hardly any time to outplay opponents because it is common to die in a stun.
    Last edited by yehyehyehyeh; 2013-02-04 at 10:11 AM.

  19. #59
    I agree with the OP.

    Base damage this expansion like others has been too high. In pvp this always got fixed by resil making the fights longer and longer.

    From a design point of view as fights got longer in expansions we got more CC to the point where it hit today's levels.

    The problem now is the base damage and pvp power scaling means is people are now dying within a single cc, and many classes have multiple ccs designed around longer fights we no longer have.

    My own view is pvp power should provide a damage increase but should not negate all resilience+base resilience on a player to the point we are at today. It should be a moderate boost at most.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Ichifails View Post
    Nothing to see here, I did 120k with Chaos Bolt on a S12 Retri Pala w/o CD's while I was in full S13 gear gemmed, enchanted, pet sacrificed and all CD's (+Food buff, flask and potion). I'm saying you're eating bullshit.
    You're doing something very wrong. I'm a 2,2k+ resto Shaman in full upgraded gear. We tested out the damage our warlock could put out in similar gear. With a bit of luck he could two shot me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flaubertlives View Post
    After looking again at some numbers I had from when there was access to higher amounts of Resilience Rating (Old Disc 2 set) the nerf looks something like this

    http://i46.tinypic.com/125osq1.jpg

    Take it with a pinch of salt, it's not exact, but that's how Resilience is on Live (red) compared to PTR (yellow).

    It's a small nerf, but it's still a nerf when there's already too much damage in PvP.
    Any nerf to resilence at this point would be completly and utterly retarded. Two DPS alone can already kill someone when using cool down while completly ignoring a healer if they're playing the right classes. In RBG the person who's the focus target often drops in 1-2 seconds.

    Taking into account the way damage is going up with the patch and the new gear a nerf to resilence at this point would mean that there is nothing whatsoever to off set the sharp damage increase.

    MoP PvP has so far been the worst PvP I've ever seen in World of Warcraft. There is an insane ammount of CC flying around, more than ever before, healing is gimped compared to Wotlk where the burst was off set by just as much burst healing and a lot of instant heals while the damage is even higher compared to life pools as it was at any point in the history of WoW.

    If this goes live I'm gone, this is complete bullshit.
    Last edited by Deleth; 2013-02-04 at 12:47 PM.

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