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  1. #61
    Even with 5k resilience I'd survive a rogue in the opener 1v1.

    yeah in duells?

    i want to see this happening in arena. garrote 3 sec silence. cheap 5 sec stun. garrote silence again. blind. kidney. poison stun. this are, with using a trinket are at least 12 seconds of not beeing able to do anything exept one beneficial global cd. By then, battlemaster + health gain cd wear off and i drop dead.

    i have a macro with /use trinket/ battlemaster / silence immunity cd / instant heal for a reason. It does help against warrior / mage double stun + blanket burst. it doesnt help against rogue openers.

    Perhaps u are a simple mind and think that the rogues opener is the initial garrote?
    and he waits to use his dance up to the time where he will not be able to kill? Against this kind of rogues, i could go afk for half a minute in a 1vs1.

    A rogue opener is the blowage of all cc cds ,a rogue has, including vanish+ prep, while beeing smokebombed while beeing dancing after the initial garrote. If u survive this without any resilience gear, my respect.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    All this QQ about CC is warranted. All this QQ about CC is completley overshadowing the far bigger concern: burst.

    If you thought pre-fix stampede was bad wait until 5.2. Every single class can burst people down as quick as a bm hunter could in 5.0 if not faster.

    Yes, I suggested before that all pvp stats from gear be removed and baseline resilience kept as is. I would love for that to happen but know it never will. As such, I propose that either pvp power be nerfed (at least 20-30%) or pvp resilience be buffed (which didn't work all that well before). Dying to a fire mage in less than 5 seconds while in defensive stance isn't fun. Dying to a rogue in an opener isn't fun. Getting crit with a rising sun kick for more than half your health isn't fun. Getting crit with a STUN for 100k+ wasn't fun in 5.0 and still isn't fun now (shockwave).

    Either tone down specific abilities and spread damage, nerf the hell out of burst cooldowns or nerf pvp power. There's no excuse. The problem is apparent and the solution is clear as day.
    Looks like someone is butthurt, because their godly OP warrior is no longer on the list of fotm class? Sounds like it a lot.

    But Apart from that aspect of your post, I agree. If the classes you mention get as strong as they do, it really looks like they need to rework the pvp system.

    PS: Is it only me who can see history repeating itself on first patch fotm classes to 2nd patch fotm classes in new expansions?
    Quote Originally Posted by vep View Post
    Are you really looking for logic in a game that sends you dragons via the mail service?...

  3. #63
    Do you hear what you're saying? On my toons I used to crit 120k+'s with no problems. -heck, even 150k+ with skull banner comps- Now that doesn't happen. I used to get crit 100k+'s from warriors in rapid succesion -or one big 250kloludead-. Now 65k maximum with all their CD's up. Learn to gem resillience. Resillience scales better. It's been this way since forever. Sit @ %65+ resi and the only thing close to a 100k you'll get hit by will be chaos bolt, which is not that common in competitive play. Ferals hit really hard atm -my t1 kitty crits 70k+ even 80k+ my t2 mage can't reach those numbers unless facing ungeared people - , but their kittydance relies heavily on berserk which is a 12 second counterable stuff. With the current state of healing if you nerf pvp power that much or buff resillience like that, games will be RNG dependent, people will NOT die. The problem is the CC. You get feared, you get cloned, you get poly'd you get hex'd you get stunned,stunned and stunned again then you get blinded. 20sec+ chains are perfectly doable. This is absurd. You have to maxrange/LoS everything, or else it's going to be a cc chain of doom. And doing so cripples your ability to go offensive.
    Last edited by Archiul; 2013-02-04 at 01:49 PM.

  4. #64
    PvP is just a joke now. I don't see the point in having Resilience and PVP Power, surely it makes better sense to have just Resilience. Seems counter productive to have a stat that reduces damage from players then another that increases damage done to players, doesn't it just reach a point where it's exactly the same as before when we had PvE geared players ripping PvP geared ones apart.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by quikbunny View Post
    PvP is just a joke now. I don't see the point in having Resilience and PVP Power, surely it makes better sense to have just Resilience. Seems counter productive to have a stat that reduces damage from players then another that increases damage done to players, doesn't it just reach a point where it's exactly the same as before when we had PvE geared players ripping PvP geared ones apart.
    This is really the larger issue anyway.
    There's too much of a gear disparity in PvP.

    In PvE if you have someone in full blue quest gear and someone in full heroic raid gear, it's fine. Because the person in full heroic raid gear is at an appropriate level for heroic raids, and the person in full blue quest gear is at an appropriate level for heroic dungeons.

    In PvP it doesn't work out the same.
    You have a person in full crafted blues, and a person in full elite PvP gear. Which is fine, because the elite PvP gear is appropriate for high end arena, and the crafted blues are appropriate for regular BGs. Except that the person in full elite PvP gear can join regular BGs and walk around two shotting people in blue crafted without any hindrance.

    That, in my opinion, is what is wrong with PvP at the moment.
    I can't even count the number of times I've had a well geared healer turn and DPS me down in crafted gear on an alt, without even bothering to heal himself because I do almost no damage.

    Two days ago I, and another lock in blue pvp gear fought a geared warlock 2v1 in a warsong.
    The geared lock killed both of us in probably about 20 seconds, using one defensive cooldown, and never dropped below 80% health.

    That's just stupid.
    The Abbot at first tried to console Pai Mei, only to find Pai Mei was... inconsolable.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by whoranzone View Post
    Doubt that everyone really is that keen on going back to the good wizard times.
    Thing is, comps like Beastcleave/TSG/RMP etc were still very viable. Not to mention double shadowmourne as a TSG could run rampant through most wizard cleaves
    Quote Originally Posted by Melt View Post
    Funny thing. In Germany we translate scientist into Wissenschaftler. Translated word for word that would be "knowledge creator" and it shows very well why I stopped accepting science. They get paid for creating all these statistics. They have deadlines, they have people they have to listen to and they have to "strive for the next sensation".

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    The game is even burstier in 3v3 where you're going to die in under 2 seconds
    You have to die in under 2 seconds because your healer can top your off in 1 global.
    You cant just nerf burst without looking at the whole PvP. Thats why the blanket silence got reverted, its dumb to have a blanket silence? yes, but you cant remove it without changing everything

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by quikbunny View Post
    PvP is just a joke now. I don't see the point in having Resilience and PVP Power, surely it makes better sense to have just Resilience. Seems counter productive to have a stat that reduces damage from players then another that increases damage done to players, doesn't it just reach a point where it's exactly the same as before when we had PvE geared players ripping PvP geared ones apart.
    No, pvp power serves a key purpose. While it may seem counterintuitive for pvp gear to both increase damage and mitigation, the alternative is that pvp gear is only effective in terms of defensive stats and players have to wear pve gear to gain an offensive edge. While I know a lot of pve players suggest that they'd be fine with this, it's only fair that pvp gear is best for pvp. How fair would it be if, for example, 2200 pvp weapons were bis for raiding?

    The downside is that it creates a larger gear gap than there's ever been before for pve or undergeared players stepping into a pvp situation, and while I'm sympathetic to a degree, if these players like to pvp they'll be awarded some semblance of appropriate gear for it eventually.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Archiul View Post
    Do you hear what you're saying? On my toons I used to crit 120k+'s with no problems. -heck, even 150k+ with skull banner comps- Now that doesn't happen. I used to get crit 100k+'s from warriors in rapid succesion -or one big 250kloludead-. Now 65k maximum with all their CD's up. Learn to gem resillience. Resillience scales better. It's been this way since forever. Sit @ %65+ resi and the only thing close to a 100k you'll get hit by will be chaos bolt, which is not that common in competitive play. Ferals hit really hard atm -my t1 kitty crits 70k+ even 80k+ my t2 mage can't reach those numbers unless facing ungeared people - , but their kittydance relies heavily on berserk which is a 12 second counterable stuff. With the current state of healing if you nerf pvp power that much or buff resillience like that, games will be RNG dependent, people will NOT die. The problem is the CC. You get feared, you get cloned, you get poly'd you get hex'd you get stunned,stunned and stunned again then you get blinded. 20sec+ chains are perfectly doable. This is absurd. You have to maxrange/LoS everything, or else it's going to be a cc chain of doom. And doing so cripples your ability to go offensive.
    Rising sun kick says hi

    Baseline resil with full tyrannical is about 60-61% Rising sun kick with no cds up can crit over 100k average for me is around 112k. Now lets add in another 45% damage (tigers eye brew 10 stacks) On use pvp trinket, two weapon procs up and the other pvp trinket proc up.

  10. #70
    PvP Power is not a problem. Or rather, it is not a problem for anyone who is gemming Resilience like you should be doing. Could it be argued that you should not need to gem for max Resilience, sure since I like having options. But if you are gemming for PvP Power, or any other stat, you know what you are giving up to do so and have no right to complain.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by zykaz View Post
    This game is balanced around 3v3, not 1v1.

    stop thinking it is, please
    This game isnt balanced at all. stop thinking it is, please

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by zykaz View Post
    This game is balanced around 3v3, not 1v1.

    stop thinking it is, please
    Quite frankly i am sick to death of hearing this BS. "Game is balanced around 3v3" its the most piss poor excuse from blizzard that's been used over the years. Why do 2v2 and 5v5 exist then or duels or BG's. THE GAME IS NOT SOLELY BALANCED AROUND 3v3, they tell u that to get u off their backs. Ppl dont just cruise around world of warcraft 3v3'ing everytime they are involved in PvP and blizzard know this. It would be stupid not to balance the game for the most common types of PvP. They try to balance for 1v1, 2v2 and groupplay but they have been failing pretty bad for a long time. 1v1 must be balanced somewhat or the game does not work, end of story. The fact of the matter is i think the quality of the work produced by ppl on wow since WOTLK is utterly abyssmal. I hope complaints about balance roll in over and over and over and over till they are forced to make up another bullshit excuse to buy themselves indefinite time from the angry mob. You guys are fooled so easily.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Woodgela View Post
    Quite frankly i am sick to death of hearing this BS. "Game is balanced around 3v3" its the most piss poor excuse from blizzard that's been used over the years. Why do 2v2 and 5v5 exist then or duels or BG's. THE GAME IS NOT SOLELY BALANCED AROUND 3v3, they tell u that to get u off their backs. Ppl dont just cruise around world of warcraft 3v3'ing everytime they are involved in PvP and blizzard know this. It would be stupid not to balance the game for the most common types of PvP. They try to balance for 1v1, 2v2 and groupplay but they have been failing pretty bad for a long time. 1v1 must be balanced somewhat or the game does not work, end of story. The fact of the matter is i think the quality of the work produced by ppl on wow since WOTLK is utterly abyssmal. I hope complaints about balance roll in over and over and over and over till they are forced to make up another bullshit excuse to buy themselves indefinite time from the angry mob. You guys are fooled so easily.
    You can claim gravity doesn't exist, but you're not going to change anything by believing it. Game is balanced around 3v3.

  14. #74
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    Id agree that rogues have too much cc/silencing stuff, something must be done about endless stuns and stupid non cd garrote:/ not even their damage but just stupid lockout they easily do with simple abilities lining up.

    Try at least to face them, most ppl do a mistake running from a rogue showing them back, granting free stabs

    Anyway, Im pretty much sure when TES Online goes live Blizzard starts thinking about issues with burst and crowd control, as it happened with GW2 that gave us pvp power after seasons of pve heroes on arena Thay just have no competitors at the moment on MMORPG line so they can afford blue walls of text about pvp but change nothing about it...

    P.S.: Im really afraid S13 will bring roguecraft of S11 back, I dont want it, really...

  15. #75
    That wouldn't make the game more about skill nerfing instant cast and bringing back mechanics that let u stop 90% of a classes damage would. Gear and health pools aren't the issue. What makes killing a player in malv gear almost impossible is that nobody cast. Hunters don't have a dead zone so if u played well like rooting there disengages and staying on top of them it does nothing because he can still do 100% of his damage. While back in wotlk or cata he couldn't do any warlocks, mages, and shamans having instant procs that aren't dispellable. Which means eating that damage is mandatory which means you need to save cooldowns or have x amount of gear to live through it. Thats the probably not hp pools you can die in 3 globals just like in wotlk. The probably is instant, people having a thousand pets, and spells like reign of fire that the warlock doesn't even have to channel breaking you out of stealth it makes playing well not even matter just spamming blanking and hit those ice lances wins.

    In wotlk people casted, hunters had a dead zone, fingers of frost were dispel able and not guaranteed which made playing well important but on live only certain classes are subject to having to play well while other don't have to think about a damn thing and that's why battlegrounds aren't fun anymore for me anyway.
    You're right except for 2 things.

    1. My name is spelt "God" not "Loucious-sama".
    2. I'm not a man, because man is inherently flawed. I am in fact a being so far beyond your comprehension that archaic constraints like flesh, blood, time and consequently, gender, have no meaning to me.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Tya View Post
    You can claim gravity doesn't exist, but you're not going to change anything by believing it. Game is balanced around 3v3.
    You mean like BC was allegedly balanced around 5v5?

  17. #77
    I like it as it is!

  18. #78
    PvP Power needs to be removed, it's a flawed concept that's even more flawed than resilience because there's no cap on it.

    I mean in the Tyrannical gear as a dps, I can reach up to 63% PvP Power, yet my resilience is 61.8%. Even though I'm sure PvP power doesn't exactly work this way, it seems that PvP power is starting to completely negate the effect that resilience has and in the end season of the expansion it will become even worse. So at some point it won't even be worth it to get pvp gear because you'll basically be better off using hc raiding gear again as a dps. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

    Either way, seems they need to nerf pvp power completely or buff resilience up to insane reduction percentages.

    Recruiting players for 14/14hc farm and upcoming expansion, pm me or www.lucewow.com

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Hikashuri View Post
    PvP Power needs to be removed, it's a flawed concept that's even more flawed than resilience because there's no cap on it.

    I mean in the Tyrannical gear as a dps, I can reach up to 63% PvP Power, yet my resilience is 61.8%. Even though I'm sure PvP power doesn't exactly work this way, it seems that PvP power is starting to completely negate the effect that resilience has and in the end season of the expansion it will become even worse. So at some point it won't even be worth it to get pvp gear because you'll basically be better off using hc raiding gear again as a dps. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

    Either way, seems they need to nerf pvp power completely or buff resilience up to insane reduction percentages.
    You are indeed wrong because Power and Resilience are multiplicative, not additive. 61.8% Resilience reduces that 163% damage to 62.3%.

    Resilience CANNOT be negated.

    PVE gear will never become PVP BiS again under the current system.

  20. #80
    The actual problem is CDs being too strong. If we were to nerf PvP power or PvP power you'd never be able to kill someone outside of CDs. It's reidiculous how cooldown stacking makes you do 3 times your damage for 10 seconds.

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