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  1. #1

    % dmg buffs and pets - Will we ever get areasonable "fix"?

    They seriously should just replace % dmg mechanics from here out with +Mastery so it will benefits all specs including pets.

  2. #2
    If these assorted +Damage% buffs are changed to Mastery. We will see Warlocks and Mages who stack Mastery will see a higher increase in DPS, not to mention certain tanks will get more damage reduction or avoidance or whatever they use get boosted. And on Stone Guard, healer mastery will give them better healing and the balancing factors seem meh.
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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Libertarian View Post
    They seriously should just replace % dmg mechanics from here out with +Mastery so it will benefits all specs including pets.
    Or just fix it so it effects pets instead of making a few select specs better at some fights.

  4. #4
    yeah they should just let pets inherit % damage buffs from their owner.
    they'll be doing that some time. (I think I read that in a tweet somewhere)

  5. #5
    no the correct way to fix it is instead of making the a "damage done from the player make it a "damage recived by the boss then it effects the pets. Its a basic and simple answer to the problem, however its a smart options so therefore it cannot be thought of by blizzard.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis003 View Post
    no the correct way to fix it is instead of making the a "damage done from the player make it a "damage recived by the boss then it effects the pets. Its a basic and simple answer to the problem, however its a smart options so therefore it cannot be thought of by blizzard.
    Except when they want the buff to be... you know, tied to the player. If they want to design a fight where only X % of the raid has increased damage, or those that screw something up get boned out of getting a damage boost because they were bad (instead of putting it on the boss so they get it anyway).

    Really, +% damage boosts need to be inherited by the pet, like, you know.... everything else. That's it really, not a whole lot to discuss.

  7. #7
    I send a message to ghostcrawler's twitter every few days asking about this. No reply yet, but I still figure that has the best odds of actually getting a direct reply of some kind. Give it a shot, maybe he'll be more likely to respond if he sees different people asking. Don't PELT him with questions ceaselessly, just once in a while ask again, maybe worded slightly differently so he doesn't just immediately dismiss it.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis003 View Post
    no the correct way to fix it is instead of making the a "damage done from the player make it a "damage recived by the boss then it effects the pets. Its a basic and simple answer to the problem, however its a smart options so therefore it cannot be thought of by blizzard.
    your easy fix causes other problems, as healing through dmg (Discs, Monks), such decisions are not always as simple as you think...

  9. #9
    I'm under the impression that it's a coding fix that they intend to make that'll scale pet damage with Hunter buffs. I have no idea when to expect that, but realistically, I'd guess it won't come this expansion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis003 View Post
    no the correct way to fix it is instead of making the a "damage done from the player make it a "damage recived by the boss then it effects the pets. Its a basic and simple answer to the problem, however its a smart options so therefore it cannot be thought of by blizzard.
    I've never seen a comment you've made that doesn't have some sort of sneer attached to it. I can't imagine why you'd play a game that you hate so very much made by a company that you hate so very much.
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  10. #10
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    The problem with this is that pets are melee and hunters ranged. The obvious example is Titan Gas on H-Will of the Emperor. They want melee to benefit from this buff to compensate for their large downtime from running - but if a BM hunter's pet got that buff, they'd be just sitting on the boss the whole time KCing to their heart's content.

    Such a change to allow buffs to be inherited from master to pet would require a re-coding of the entire pet system (to either make them ranged, or make them inherit buffs directly but not from the hunter ever; IE, RF doesn't do anything for the pet unless they re-code it to do so), or never again allow buffs which buff melee and not ranged, or vice versa.

    I know how frustrating this is as we're working on Heroic Elite protectors now and I feel like I'm gimping my raid by being there, but the solution is not an easy one.

  11. #11
    5.2 mechanics will work this way, atleast Jin'Rokhs pools will.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    The problem with this is that pets are melee and hunters ranged. The obvious example is Titan Gas on H-Will of the Emperor. They want melee to benefit from this buff to compensate for their large downtime from running - but if a BM hunter's pet got that buff, they'd be just sitting on the boss the whole time KCing to their heart's content.

    Such a change to allow buffs to be inherited from master to pet would require a re-coding of the entire pet system (to either make them ranged, or make them inherit buffs directly but not from the hunter ever; IE, RF doesn't do anything for the pet unless they re-code it to do so), or never again allow buffs which buff melee and not ranged, or vice versa.

    I know how frustrating this is as we're working on Heroic Elite protectors now and I feel like I'm gimping my raid by being there, but the solution is not an easy one.
    Uh a melee could do the exact same thing and sit on the boss. Dodging attacks isn't hard at all, so don't even make the excuse that pets ignore it. And what's your excuse for Garalon before we got the buff (top guilds were sitting hunters), Protectors, Stone guard, etc? What about our lack of cleave or multi dot? Hunters are in a great place for single target, and large aoe.

  13. #13
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    Yeah, but the thing is, when a melee sits on the boss instead of, yanno, dealing with the mechanics in an encounter, they are accountable and can wipe. It's less likely to be noticed if it's just a hunter pet (and thus more scumbaggy DPS). It's a strategic choice - sit on the boss and get big sexy damage with your melee, or have them run around and DPS and soak sparks and use the buff as a "catch up" mechanic to account for all the downtime. With a hunter pet, you can reap the benefit of sitting on the boss with the buff, and have much less of a downside as you still have ranged attacks for DPSing adds.

    And frankly, I thought the Garalon buff was just to shut people up. I can literally solo far legs by myself as BM during BW on H-Garalon when our mDPS can't go up to the leg because it's dipping in-and-out of the boundaries and in pheremone pools, and BM hunters are now literally the best ranged for this fight after afflic warlocks (and only because afflic locks are retarded OP). It makes no sense, design-wise, for a ranged class to have 60% of its damage buffed by a "be-in-melee-range" buff when the hunter is across the room. The problem with the Garalon encounter is that they wanted it to be a serious mechanics fight where you had to maximize DPS while kiting, and sacrifice damage for good mitigation, pool placement, and nominal DPS while stutter stepping (which hunters excelled at), but it ended up being a DPS check because it was a bit too tight, and that's why hunters were sat. Within a week they extended the enrage by a minute, and believe me, I haven't been sat since that time, even before the buff was given to pets in melee range of the legs.

    Protectors is a single target fight. Anyone doing cleave damage is doing the definition of meter whoring, and it accomplishes nothing. Stone Guards, who fucking cares, it was the first heroic boss and DPS was never an issue on it, even in full blues, but even then, hunters were and are one of the best tile-running classes int he game. Iif you were sitting your hunters for H-Stone Guards progression, that's just dumb.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Yeah, but the thing is, when a melee sits on the boss instead of, yanno, dealing with the mechanics in an encounter, they are accountable and can wipe. It's less likely to be noticed if it's just a hunter pet (and thus more scumbaggy DPS). It's a strategic choice - sit on the boss and get big sexy damage with your melee, or have them run around and DPS and soak sparks and use the buff as a "catch up" mechanic to account for all the downtime. With a hunter pet, you can reap the benefit of sitting on the boss with the buff, and have much less of a downside as you still have ranged attacks for DPSing adds.

    And frankly, I thought the Garalon buff was just to shut people up. I can literally solo far legs by myself as BM during BW on H-Garalon when our mDPS can't go up to the leg because it's dipping in-and-out of the boundaries and in pheremone pools, and BM hunters are now literally the best ranged for this fight after afflic warlocks (and only because afflic locks are retarded OP). It makes no sense, design-wise, for a ranged class to have 60% of its damage buffed by a "be-in-melee-range" buff when the hunter is across the room. The problem with the Garalon encounter is that they wanted it to be a serious mechanics fight where you had to maximize DPS while kiting, and sacrifice damage for good mitigation, pool placement, and nominal DPS while stutter stepping (which hunters excelled at), but it ended up being a DPS check because it was a bit too tight, and that's why hunters were sat. Within a week they extended the enrage by a minute, and believe me, I haven't been sat since that time, even before the buff was given to pets in melee range of the legs.

    Protectors is a single target fight. Anyone doing cleave damage is doing the definition of meter whoring, and it accomplishes nothing. Stone Guards, who fucking cares, it was the first heroic boss and DPS was never an issue on it, even in full blues, but even then, hunters were and are one of the best tile-running classes int he game. Iif you were sitting your hunters for H-Stone Guards progression, that's just dumb.
    you miss the point. If the problem was with mages not getting all of a buff it would of been fixed long ago, if it was warlock getting shafted it would of been fixed, if warlocks didn't have a work around it would of been fixed. Hell Monks had issues and they are rebuilding the WW spec to fix them but they ignore hunters.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    I've never seen a comment you've made that doesn't have some sort of sneer attached to it. I can't imagine why you'd play a game that you hate so very much made by a company that you hate so very much.
    I have noticed this. See above.


    On topic: It's likely some technical limitation that they are too lazy to fix or they simply have it as a low priority fix. Hopefully they learned from Garalon and they use the same bandaid fix to affect pets on future damage buff mechanics.

    ...that or they make MM/SV more viable so I don't have to play BM and complain so much...

  16. #16
    there's no reason to not fix that issue with a simple inheritence mechanism, much like haste, crit and almost every other buff works. pets are part of the hunter and should be fully functional, always, especially when a whole spec depends on them. they have their own drawbacks and advantage without that glitch.

    regarding stuff like will: what's bad with letting the pet sit at one boss the whole time? other classes can almost double their damage by multi dotting. on top of this, the adds still have to be downed.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis003 View Post
    you miss the point. If the problem was with mages not getting all of a buff it would of been fixed long ago, if it was warlock getting shafted it would of been fixed, if warlocks didn't have a work around it would of been fixed. Hell Monks had issues and they are rebuilding the WW spec to fix them but they ignore hunters.
    Like I said, there were numerous problems with warlocks in H-DS, they were never fixed the whole tier, and that affected one of the top specs in the game (Demonology). You're just suffering from some bizarre hunter persecution complex.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-30 at 10:35 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ril-gania View Post
    there's no reason to not fix that issue with a simple inheritence mechanism, much like haste, crit and almost every other buff works. pets are part of the hunter and should be fully functional, always, especially when a whole spec depends on them. they have their own drawbacks and advantage without that glitch.

    regarding stuff like will: what's bad with letting the pet sit at one boss the whole time? other classes can almost double their damage by multi dotting. on top of this, the adds still have to be downed.
    Also, if we're talking specifically about H-Will, there are some issues with giving pets the melee buff, *even if the hunter is on add duty*. the main duty of ranged is to deal with rages when they spawn - but the design of the encounter is to discourage melee from doing that AoE burn because of the fixates and the enormous amounts of melee damage they do. The obvious design intent is to slow/snare them, and burn them from range. If a BM hunter pet could get the buff, never be fixated, and wreck those mobs with beast cleave, that would circumvent the design intent.

    Hunter pets should never get melee buffs, because hunters are a ranged class, and the pet's damage should reflect that. I completely agree that ranged buffs or general buffs for everyone (like the haste buff on Protectors and the damage buff in H-Protectors) should be inherited by pets.

  18. #18
    what. trigger beast cleve for two adds? there's no way burning through 40 focus every 4 seconds is beneficial there. on top of this pets on add duty have a lot of downtime in that encounter, much like melees. it's not like the gas buffs all our damage. i'm not sure if it's physical damage done or purely melee damage done, but regardless, a great portion of our damage remains unaffected (arcane shot, serpent sting, traps) anyways.

    it is true that hunters are extremely strong on will, i think having 2 hunter was the reason we managed to kill will heroic in like 7 or 8 tries. we bring great control (pet stun, stun arrow, slow traps, scatter shot), can take sparks every minute, and do good burst on the adds as BMs with blink strike. however there're enough bosses where hunters are underwhelming because of pet mechanics like protectors, or because of our bad cleave/multidot ability, like garalon. there's nothing wrong with shining as a class in some encounters, it's not like we're mandatory or anything anyways. other classes do just as well.

    it doesn't matter that the rages were "meant" to be downed by rangeds. i don't think this is even true. melees can hit them as well, if a rage happens to target one, it can be kited by that one melee while the others keep hitting them. or, more likely, you can force a target switch by simply stunning them (scatter shot is great).

    hunter aren't a ranged class, and we're nowhere like any other casters. we have both a ranged and a melee component and more than half of our damage is physical. in melee-unfriendly encounters we can feel the drawbacks often, but not always. in multi target fights, we need to micro manage our pet which is usually extra workload compared to casters, and pets have much downtime like melees. not letting the pet benefit from melee buffs cripples our damage more than necessary. we need them as much as any melee needs it. pets are an inherent component of our class and should be treated as such.

    see: if our pet doesn't inherit a flat 50% damage buff, then we do only roughly 25% more damage as BM, while the rest of our raid does 50% more. if a buff is melee specific, then only roughly half of our total damage is modified by it as well. that's less than what melees, but more than what casters get. casters don't have half of their damage running around uselessly whenever an add dies.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Like I said, there were numerous problems with warlocks in H-DS, they were never fixed the whole tier, and that affected one of the top specs in the game (Demonology). You're just suffering from some bizarre hunter persecution complex.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-30 at 10:35 PM ----------



    Also, if we're talking specifically about H-Will, there are some issues with giving pets the melee buff, *even if the hunter is on add duty*. the main duty of ranged is to deal with rages when they spawn - but the design of the encounter is to discourage melee from doing that AoE burn because of the fixates and the enormous amounts of melee damage they do. The obvious design intent is to slow/snare them, and burn them from range. If a BM hunter pet could get the buff, never be fixated, and wreck those mobs with beast cleave, that would circumvent the design intent.

    Hunter pets should never get melee buffs, because hunters are a ranged class, and the pet's damage should reflect that. I completely agree that ranged buffs or general buffs for everyone (like the haste buff on Protectors and the damage buff in H-Protectors) should be inherited by pets.
    Warlocks are a ranged caster class yet if they go and melee the boss in demo form they get the buff added to their damage. EVERYTHING int eh room that melees gets an additional 25% damage but pets.It wouldn't be OP in the slightest, in fact it would actually balance hunter DPS with everyone elses.

    Like i said before to get a top 25 WORLD parse for BM hunters on that fight you got to hit 80k DPS. Warlocks need to double that to barely get in the top 200.

  20. #20
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    Who cares about parsing on H-Will of the Emperor? It's literally the least DPS intensive heroic in that instance. The whole fight is about control. Our feral does next to nothing on this fight because he has to take displacer if he needs to soak a spark, and when our DK isn't in, he's ursol's vortexing everything and typhooning like a madman, then has to jump out when entrapment procs. We still kill it.

    And I don't know about demo warlocks this xpac, do they actually have melee attacks in demon form now, or spells they cast in melee range so that immo aura can hit as well (which was the case in Cata). If it's the former, they should definitely be getting that buff because they're doing melee damage. Now if their felhunter is getting buffed for that fight for its shadowbites (provided they were even running Grim of Supremacy, which they prob aren't), that'd be more analogous to what you're trying to argue.

    To address Ril's point: I know melee *can* do rages. After all, our DK does every wave we burn. The point is, there is a design disadvantage put in place for melee - that they can be fixated and gibbed really hard if they'e not paying attention. Which does not exist for our pets, as they cannot be fixated. So, to have a ranged class with a melee-damage component be buffed by the melee buff but not suffer the disadvantages of melee - that's not good design. Hell, you even talk about how melee are at a disadvantage due to down time on this fight that our pets barely have, because they have a 40 yard charge every 6s in KC, and a 100y shadowstep in blink strike every 20. Hell, you can even master's call somewhere for movement every 45s. Even if you're not beast-cleaving (and most people CC a wave and then do multiple waves together, so beast cleave may be viable in 4 or 8 target situations), having a 5stack of frenzy and KCing everything and blinking around and a lynx rush, etc, with total impunity, is bad design, and not a good reason for our pets to inherit that melee buff.

    Please, continue the debate. I spent a lot of money and earned a lot of debt in lawyer college to learn how to think big picture and see the interlocking pieces of things. You are wrong if you think pets should benefit from a melee buff while not having the disadvantages of melee on that fight. I've already agreed that all ranged and general buffs (like those on Protectors) should be passed on to pets, but to buff a pet with a melee buff (like on Garalon and H-Will) is bad design. Imagine a hypothetical situation where unholy DKs were still a thing and somehow their gargoyle was a permanent pet, and there was *a* fight that buffed ranged damage but not melee. Would it make sense for that gargoyle to benefit from a buff that the DK himself can't benefit from? I think too many people in the insular class communities tend to look through lenses colored by only their class experience, and not how the game is on a macro level.

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