1. #1

    Ret 1v1 and dueling

    Hey, guys

    I'm leveling a ret alt for purely PVP, and I was wondering how it is at max level. I'm mainly interested in normal bgs and dueling outside of SW. Can you please tell me which classes/specs are:

    1. Hard counters to ret, i.e. impossible to kill
    2. About equal
    3. Countered by ret, i.e. ret always wins

    Please exclude tank and healer specs

    Thank you very much

  2. #2
    Wow leveling a ret for pvp, that's a good one
    In my opinion, right now, you are pretty much screwed against anything with a brain...
    So I would put every pvp spec in 1. (with maybe enh sham in 2.)
    But It's pretty hard to give you a good idea if you are not doing serious pvp (rbg, or arena)... It really depends on the level of the player you are facing.

  3. #3
    You must clearly be trolling

    Infracted. Do not post just to call others troll. ~Fhi
    Last edited by Fhi; 2013-02-03 at 02:36 PM.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Gregz21 View Post
    You must clearly be trolling
    I'd say it looks like you're trolling if anyone. In duels Rets should get killed by literally everything. You might be able to burst down a caster who doesn't understand to keep a min 30 yard distance, but that's it really.

    In random BGs you end up in an even worse situation because Ret is so dependant on having CD's up to do anything.

    Are you seriously going to do most of your PvP alone you're rerolling to the wrong class.

  5. #5
    High Overlord Trisrx's Avatar
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    I have been dueling on the PTR a bit because regular pvp wasnt working. Ret win strategy is to zerg zerg zerg, faceroll that keyboard hard with wings and guardian up, which sometimes works, but its not at all skillful play or a meaningful result. In real pvp there is no "ok let me wait for my cooldowns again". In my duels, I tried to outplay my opponents without dps CDs, which made me lose probably ~65% of the time, even against some people who clearly had no idea how to play. I think the only dominant win I had was vs an enchance shaman, whos heals are sadly even worse than ours. Not very impressive, as I rarely ever lost a duel in cataclysm.

    That said, I would still encourage you to level your paladin. The balance rollercoaster is iconic to ret, there are bad times for sure, but also plenty of good ones. Right now, things can only get better. Its not FOTM, but if your determined, ret is definitely worth it.

  6. #6
    i wouldn't mind hearing some input on dueling as a ret against a frost dk, if yuns don't mind. is it another battle of attrition? use SoI until you feel you can CD them to death when they reach 40% or less?

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Bonkura View Post
    I'd say it looks like you're trolling if anyone. In duels Rets should get killed by literally everything. You might be able to burst down a caster who doesn't understand to keep a min 30 yard distance, but that's it really.

    In random BGs you end up in an even worse situation because Ret is so dependant on having CD's up to do anything.

    Are you seriously going to do most of your PvP alone you're rerolling to the wrong class.
    There's only 2 casters who can consistently keep a 30 yard gap...

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Kraniel View Post
    i wouldn't mind hearing some input on dueling as a ret against a frost dk, if yuns don't mind. is it another battle of attrition? use SoI until you feel you can CD them to death when they reach 40% or less?
    I usually just kite them around, freedom on grips, and dispel dots all day, use all your HP to heal until you just burst them down all at once. Try to force trinket with blind by casting in their face when they're blinded, lots of people will trinket and kick, just be ready to cut off your cast.

    Sha of Fear Melee hit You 372908 Physical. (766625 Overkill) (Critical)
    Begging us to buff is sometimes easier than trying to beat the boss.(Source)

  9. #9
    Pandaren Monk
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiporispit View Post
    There's only 2 casters who can consistently keep a 30 yard gap...
    Locks can blood fear you off, mortal coil
    Mages nova/frostbolt the hell out of us, spellsteal Freedom
    Hunters disengage and concussive spam with pet hitting you the entire time
    Shadow priests struggle with it

    Boomkins and Ele aren't really played right now, but Ele can have a 12 second cooldown on thunderstorm, I believe.


    Yes beating other melee is a war of attrition between CD's, kiting with LAOTL and freedom, Fist of Justice and Blinding to keep them off of you for a few to get a heal or two in.

  10. #10
    I agree that the Ret spec has been quite unattractive as of late, but when you tell the nice man who asked very clear and simple questions that he will lose against all PvP specs, you are being over-dramatic. Ret may not be working so well in arena and RBGs, but if as you say you aim for normal BGs and duels I think it might be fun. Just act as if the bots are real players.

    TBH I haven't played my Ret for over a month but I don't think anything ground-breaking changed since then. It works 1v1 but it may be quite a chore gearing up. Your damage will be puny at first, though I think the PvP weapon will make a big difference. I also think that when it comes to killing someone else 1v1, the skill-cap for Ret is high, mostly because of its support nature n how your damage is lower than everyone else's.

    That skill-cap must reach its utmost peak to be able to beat a competent Frost Mage, which I think is the only spec that's impossible to beat. Fire? don't even bother. Their duels rely on procs and sometimes they will proc all day, and they will unload lots of damage on you while effectively kiting you, all while spamming their jump button, every second of the duel. I would bet that Fire Mages have the most worn-out spacebars. Rogues have never felt hard to kill, even the ones that heavily out-geared my toon. It's all about tricking them into using their cloaks early n the rest is a matter of who does what faster. They're pretty equal to Ret. Hunters have always been easy prey, even with the recent BM madness. In fact, when their big cooldown faded, I felt bad for them, mid-duel. Just about as bad as I felt for Elemental Shamans, also easy prey. Shadow Priest duels take forever. They kinda countered Ret before but they should be easier now with weaker heals. Moonkins are easier than Ferals, and Feral is equal to Ret. DKs and Enh Shamans are also on par with Ret, with Blood duels sometimes lasting a duration of 3 Lay on Hands.

    So yea if you choose to play Ret I believe the one class you will end up hating with extreme passion is Mage, fire and frost.
    I worry there's three of me, and each of us is blind.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Basemath View Post
    I agree that the Ret spec has been quite unattractive as of late, but when you tell the nice man who asked very clear and simple questions that he will lose against all PvP specs, you are being over-dramatic. Ret may not be working so well in arena and RBGs, but if as you say you aim for normal BGs and duels I think it might be fun. Just act as if the bots are real players.

    TBH I haven't played my Ret for over a month but I don't think anything ground-breaking changed since then. It works 1v1 but it may be quite a chore gearing up. Your damage will be puny at first, though I think the PvP weapon will make a big difference. I also think that when it comes to killing someone else 1v1, the skill-cap for Ret is high, mostly because of its support nature n how your damage is lower than everyone else's.

    That skill-cap must reach its utmost peak to be able to beat a competent Frost Mage, which I think is the only spec that's impossible to beat. Fire? don't even bother. Their duels rely on procs and sometimes they will proc all day, and they will unload lots of damage on you while effectively kiting you, all while spamming their jump button, every second of the duel. I would bet that Fire Mages have the most worn-out spacebars. Rogues have never felt hard to kill, even the ones that heavily out-geared my toon. It's all about tricking them into using their cloaks early n the rest is a matter of who does what faster. They're pretty equal to Ret. Hunters have always been easy prey, even with the recent BM madness. In fact, when their big cooldown faded, I felt bad for them, mid-duel. Just about as bad as I felt for Elemental Shamans, also easy prey. Shadow Priest duels take forever. They kinda countered Ret before but they should be easier now with weaker heals. Moonkins are easier than Ferals, and Feral is equal to Ret. DKs and Enh Shamans are also on par with Ret, with Blood duels sometimes lasting a duration of 3 Lay on Hands.

    So yea if you choose to play Ret I believe the one class you will end up hating with extreme passion is Mage, fire and frost.
    A lot of those classes you listed are in a LOT better places than Ret, even in 1v1 duels. A good hunter should be just as slippery as a frost mage, Feral is in a way better place (I play one, its ridiculous how much more CC and damage I put out, with being much harder to kill)
    A DK v Ret 1v1 will probably be about equal, yeah.

    A rogue should crush a paladin in 1v1, especially with them both in bad spots. Garrote + stun lock + disarm and we have no cooldowns to speak of against a Rogue. That's not even with Evasion and Cloak, either. The skill-cap for Ret is high, but a player is also severely limited right now. The self-heals are nigh-useless, with DivProt as our only defensive CD, with many classes having MUCH better, and more consistent dps.

    For instance, the BM hunter can Bestial Wrath every minute, and Rapid fire every 3, and can use Deterrance whenever we pop our cooldowns, more snap healing than a Ret (exhilaration) etc.

    All in all, best bets are probably against Shams(yes, they suck right now), locks, spriests, rogues(a tough fight), and DK's.

  12. #12
    Vs melee --> chicken tacs, Vs casters---> just forget it

  13. #13
    Assuming your vsing equal geared opponents. You will only beat them if your CDs are up. Once our healing increases with the patch then you can stand a solid chance to survive as your been kited eg. Currently our survival CDs are crap and our healing is even worse, if you cant kill them during your burst youve lost.

    In the words of Rick James... Shadow priests will 'fuck your couch' As will locks. Fear puts us at a HUGE disadvantage as we have no instant gap closer. Not to mention the ridiculous duration of silence and how it effects rets abilities when it shouldn't, considering we are a god dam melee class.

    Warriors are far to strong to kill even with our CDs up. A good warrior will spell reflect your stun, kite/fear/retaliation your burst and render you useless.

    Hunters will kite you to death, drop the zoo on you and gg.

    Mages same as hunters, their absorb is nuts and you'll rarely get close enough. Try to cast heal and your counter spelled ans screwed and insta healing every 18 seconds isnt great considering they are barraging you with damage and you cant get close enough to do any.

    Rogues will vanish through your burst and save their trinket for your stun before your drop it.

    Generally every class knows if they can negate/reduce your burst they've won.

    Pallies are in a bad spot currently in pvp. Id level a warrior or mage instead until were fixed

  14. #14
    You can generally follow the same mantra in any duel: keep up sacred shield at all times, keep weakened blows up against any physical damage dealer, use Divine Protection on any cd you're not going to bubble or kite (glyphed against physical damage dealers), force trinkets by using Blinding Light when you see their cooldowns, then use Fist of Justice and blow your own. If you are a dk or priest, dispelling their diseases lowers their damage by quite a bit so it's always worth the mana/global. Take every opportunity you can that you're not doing damage to throw a Flash of Light on yourself (this becomes even more important next patch).

    I feel rets have a fair chance of winning against any melee class (less so against warriors with the current second wind), and are at a big disadvantage against wizards and hunters.

  15. #15
    Ret 1v1 on open ground it's 50/50, if there are los obstacles that can be used when duelling/world pvp then it's more interesting. I haven't played ret in mop but I remember it being a very defensive playstyle for success

    Also, I firmly belive anything goes in duels( some ppl believe only use abilities u can in arena), use your profs to give you the edge, also u got a very nice lay on hands full hp heal.
    Last edited by The Small Hours; 2013-02-04 at 10:14 AM.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Teeruk View Post
    I haven't played ret in mop but I remember it being a very defensive playstyle for success
    Why do you even comment?

    also u got a very nice lay on hands full hp heal.
    LoH in duel? Seriously?

  17. #17
    He's right though. Ret duels are about playing defensive until you have a solid time to HoJ and swifty one shot macro them.

    Sha of Fear Melee hit You 372908 Physical. (766625 Overkill) (Critical)
    Begging us to buff is sometimes easier than trying to beat the boss.(Source)

  18. #18
    The big problem with ret is that you do very good dps when you use your CDs and you do very bad dps without CDs. Every time your opponent see does big wings on your back they will just more or less cc and/or kite you until your CDs is down. Then they will kill you pretty easy. If your burst was lower but your non burst dps was higher you would stand a bigger chance.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revvo View Post
    He's right though. Ret duels are about playing defensive until you have a solid time to HoJ and swifty one shot macro them.
    But he also said it's "50/50" when currently, it really isn't. If you are a solid Ret you can pull it off against some classes but good luck against a smart person who can just shut you down.

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