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  1. #1

    What are your opinions on mage direction as of patch 5.2 on the PTR

    ** PTR not PTS
    Before you post i ask that you have done extensive testing on PTR and have tried out both Fire and/or Arcane and frost depending on the spec you will provide info about.

    I am just curious how mages are doing as far as performance compared to the other classes. Do we feel overly nerfed?


    also!

    What do you anticipate to be the primary raid spec for tier 15?

    thanks for your opinions.

  2. #2
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    All I've done is play around with frost a bit. I'm ilvl 501, copied over to the PTR.

    Frost numbers seem basically the same, the spec is just easier (lower skill cap on situations when WE freeze would give 2 charges).

    My theory is once we upgrade LotC, we'll all be switching back to frost bomb in Tier 15.

    I didn't do any numbers on current PTR frost, because there's no way this is going live without more changes.

  3. #3
    feels like cata pattern again tbh (fire in t11 back to arcane after 4.1(troll patch) arcane in 4.2 then fire rises in 4.3)

    i havent seen any numbers yet but both arcane and frost seems to be the top dps by the looks of it (fire might be viable with H t15 gear though)
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  4. #4
    I'm still abstaining from judgement because the PTR is far from over, but if the current changes reflect the overall changes then my opinion of it is very very low. Frost needs water jet, and Mages in general need QoL changes mainly focusing on the L90 tier and Blazing Speed.

    For me, I mainly want to see Water Jet and RoP changes. So until then, I'm pretty disappointed.

  5. #5
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    Despite being a damage nerf, I do like the QoL improvement to Invocation, but I still feel like during Time Warp, our Mana will get a bit too low and we'll be 1-2 ticking (since it costs a global anyways) for mana during the 60s period.

    I personally feel that all 3 talents should COMPLETELY and 100% exclude the mana parts of them if you're Fire or Frost (e.g., Invocation doesn't halve your MP5; RoP and IW can increase your mana, but it doesn't really matter). Even GC kind of agrees that the L90 tier is too Arcane-centered, and Fire/Frost suffer from it.

    I want to see more done to RoP. A minor glyph that makes it put it on your feet (hey, GC, why remove one targeting circle when we can remove them all, hurp durp?).

    Fire just needs a complete fix because it's always going to be too OP or too UP due to its RNG/Crit nature.

    Arcane needs some tweaks so we're not forced to just play get to 6 stack and barrage, as that's way too boring.

    Frost needs some scaling issues fixed. Make Mastery more useful in raiding than only affecting two spells and Waterbolt. Make Crit more useful than only being centered around FoF and BF. Make SP scaling MUCH higher on Frost spells, as it's currently horrible, and will cause the quick downfall of Frost in 5.2, and even moreso in 5.4.

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  6. #6
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    GC have give some interesting info: http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/...ets-GW2-Update
    In resume:

    • They're not sure that mana management in T6 talents is so good.
    • T6 are probably too focused on "Arcane".
    • They iterate change on FoF.
    • They want Arcane to manage they're mana but without Scorch and without being always at 100%
    • Spec are at +/-5% dps.

    For Frostbolt scaling:

    • in 5.1 (live) - 125% (SP) + 15% (debuff) + 15%/25% (T6) = 155%/165%
    • in 5.2 (PTR) - 155% (SP) + 15% (T6) = 170%
    • in 5.2 Fireball - 150% (SP) + 15% (SP)
    The answers is 42
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  7. #7
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathyiel View Post
    GC have give some interesting info: http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/...ets-GW2-Update
    In resume:

    • They're not sure that mana management in T6 talents is so good.
    • T6 are probably too focused on "Arcane".
    • They iterate change on FoF.
    • They want Arcane to manage they're mana but without Scorch and without being always at 100%
    • Spec are at +/-5% dps.
    When should we expect changes? NEXT PATCH!

    When next patch hits PTR and no changes are made, when do we expect changes? PATCH AFTER NEXT PATCH!

    This is essentially how I felt when 5.1 dropped without any significant changes.

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  8. #8
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    In theory, for class change, the biggest change is always with Xpack. Patch is more about number tuning than anything.
    In fact, nothing is black or white.

    What can we expect:

    • T6 mana regen nerf (already in ptr)
    • T6 dmg nerf (already in ptr)
    • another change in FoF (maybe)
    • Water Jet (little chance)
    • cosmetic change (nothing before 6.0, they're actually on warlock)
    The answers is 42
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  9. #9
    They are buffing the unpopular talents, blazing speed, greater invisibility, ice floes, temporal shield... that's something to be happy. However, i don't think that they are taking the right decision with Blazing Speed.

    Lvl 90 talents remain being a bit pointless, any of the 3 add depth to frost or fire gameplay, so it's just an arcane pain. The new Invocation for PvP will be playable in PvP, and considering that lvl 90 talents won't be removed and replaced, I supose that we should be satisfied with it.

    Other mage issues and complains remain ignored, it's a nerf patch for us, so we have to wait for the next one to see of our underused spells improved.

  10. #10
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    You say it as if the 5.2 will be launch tomorrow.
    I don't say we can expect some serious change but we still have 5 weeks of PTR at 2 boss raid test per week. Maybe more.
    So we can have another 2 or 3 changes since there.
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  11. #11
    Dreadlord
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    Already posted that in an another Thread

    Did some Parses with Frost on the latest PTR build (ilvl 497) Trinkets: RoY 484 (2/2) and EoT nhc 504 (2/2)


    5 x ~9,mins (stopped when the fourth Alter Time came of cooldown). I did 5 parses single and 5 multi target on live and PTR.
    Talents: PoM, Frost Bomb and Invocation, with same gear, no food and no flask )

    Parses on Raid Dummy (single target): PTR 79,0k avg DPS live 89,6k avg DPS
    Parses on Raid Dummies (3 targets): PTR 105k avg, live 126k avg

    I have to say, that the latency on Brill (EU) are pretty high (150 - 200ms) for me.

    I´m running really low on mana on the PTR. If they don´t change mana management for frost and fire, we can pull Spellsteal out of our bars. Or Mana Gem will have a comeback?
    Last edited by citizenpete; 2013-01-21 at 01:26 PM.

  12. #12
    My prediction is that 1-2 weeks after the path gets live they will nerf evocation. This expansion is the fuck-the-mages-expansion, chaging specs every hotfix

  13. #13
    The Patient Berkhtar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blaxter View Post
    This expansion is the fuck-the-mages-expansion, chaging specs every hotfix
    Changing spec + gear... not only spec...

    Anyway we started with 5 mages in our 25m guild... 2 are left...

  14. #14
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blaxter View Post
    My prediction is that 1-2 weeks after the path gets live they will nerf evocation. This expansion is the fuck-the-mages-expansion, chaging specs every hotfix
    They have to be careful with Invo due to the implications it'll have on Frost/Fire. Over-nerfing will just force RoP on everyone and unless T15 is low-movement will mean shit time for mages.

    It's hardly a "fuck-the-mages" expansion though. We're only 4 months into it and it's likely to last ~2 years. We're also not changing specs with each hotfix; from how things currently look Arcane is going to be strong in 5.2 with Fire MAYBE coming into it later on with Heroic gear. Beyond that who knows.

    Quote Originally Posted by citizenpete View Post
    Or Mana Gem will have a comeback?
    Wasn't used by Fire and Frost in the first place; already is being used by Arcane (or should be) so making a 'comeback' is doubtful. Becoming useful outside of Arcane is a different matter though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Berkhtar View Post
    Changing spec + gear... not only spec...

    Anyway we started with 5 mages in our 25m guild... 2 are left...
    If you're raiding 25M and had 5 raiding mages that says enough about your raid comp alone.

  15. #15
    The Patient Berkhtar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    If you're raiding 25M and had 5 raiding mages that says enough about your raid comp alone.
    We had 5 in our roster and raided with 3... you know that you need more than 25 men to run a 25m guild?

    Now 3 of these 5 play other classes: 1 shaman and 2 locks... because mage is horrible designed and at the moment with arcane beeing: nuku nuke evo nuke nuke evo in 5.2... the last playable spec will boring as hell as well.

    Frost is not competitve in most fight because of PvP... Fire was basically killed and is subject to incredible RNG till we get ilvl 530 (?)...

    So what can we do when 5.2 hits the servers: Play a boring spec with ab, ab, ab, ab, am, ab, ab... ab, evo... rinse and repeat... or reroll to Blizzards fotm class... warlock... better dps, more fun, same loot needed.

    P.s. have been playing mage since release... so I even survived BC's Warlock-shadowbolt-spam...

  16. #16
    Dreadlord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    Wasn't used by Fire and Frost in the first place; already is being used by Arcane (or should be) so making a 'comeback' is doubtful. Becoming useful outside of Arcane is a different matter though.
    I wasn´t clear on that matter. I meant a comback for Fire and Frost, of course. I had to use Mana Gem during Cata as Frost (on some encounters I had to conjur another 3). You had to estimate how long the fight lasts, when to use evocation (1 - 2 ticks after burst, full after 4 - 5 minutes), when to use mana gem, when to switch to mage armour (all affected by how many talent points having spent to "Enduring Winter"), some played with glyphed mage armour, some (like me) played with molten (to get mana back with crits) etc. It was pretty challenging, the rotation was interessting and fun - sigh - good times.
    Last edited by citizenpete; 2013-01-21 at 03:35 PM.

  17. #17
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkhtar View Post
    We had 5 in our roster and raided with 3... you know that you need more than 25 men to run a 25m guild?

    Now 3 of these 5 play other classes: 1 shaman and 2 locks... because mage is horrible designed and at the moment with arcane beeing: nuku nuke evo nuke nuke evo in 5.2... the last playable spec will boring as hell as well.
    I'm fully aware that you need more than 25 members to run a 25 man guild; but unless the mages were alts used to class stack and you were a hardcore guild I really don't see the point in having 5 raiding mages on your roster in the first place. Just my opinion, doesn't make it wrong or right and sorry if I overstepped anything and said something to upset you.

    Quote Originally Posted by citizenpete View Post
    I wasn´t clear on that matter. I meant a comback for Fire and Frost, of course. I had to use Mana Gem during Cata as Frost (on some encounters I had to conjur another 3). You had to estimate how long the fight lasts, when to use evocation (1 - 2 ticks after burst, full after 4 - 5 minutes), when to use mana gem, when to switch to mage armour (all affected by how many talent points having spent to "Enduring Winter"), some played with glyphed mage armour, some (like me) played with molten (to get mana back with crits) etc. It was pretty challenging, the rotation was interessting and fun - sigh - good times.
    Ah; yes back at the time where Armor switching was viable due to it only being on a global :P, fair enough. It may well see a comeback in 5.2, but with Invo leaving Evocate without a CD I doubt it.

  18. #18
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoros View Post
    They are buffing the unpopular talents, blazing speed, greater invisibility, ice floes, temporal shield... that's something to be happy. However, i don't think that they are taking the right decision with Blazing Speed.

    Lvl 90 talents remain being a bit pointless, any of the 3 add depth to frost or fire gameplay, so it's just an arcane pain. The new Invocation for PvP will be playable in PvP, and considering that lvl 90 talents won't be removed and replaced, I supose that we should be satisfied with it.

    Other mage issues and complains remain ignored, it's a nerf patch for us, so we have to wait for the next one to see of our underused spells improved.
    Blazing Speed's actually a nerf as no one in their right mind would replace blink for that because you can blink through so much.

    G Invis was a very favorable talent for PvE, just a bit under Cauterize. NO ONE picks Cold Snap though and it's being nerfed, meaning they only want it used in PvP.

    Ice Floes being buffed to 45s from 1m isn't going to make anyone drop Scorch for it. Scorch costing 10,000 mana, however, will make it chosen a LOT less for Arcane.

    Temporal Shield is being purely buffed for PvP, but it's still not going to be picked over IB.

    No, it's a pain for Fire/Frost, too. RoP needs a huge overhaul, and the direction of Invocation, I actually like, but a 10% nerf to damage puts the nail in the coffin for Fire, as they can't double-dip it anymore.

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  19. #19
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    I have some divergence here
    For Blazing Speed, I really don't now because I do very little PvP, only "wolrd pvp".
    For G Invis, It's a good things. But Cold Snap nerf is a huge pain. It save me a lot in PVE.
    Ice floes is very good, more with the new reduced CD. I'm using it in nearly all fight.
    For Tempo Shield, I'm curious if it will line up with some boss ability in ToT.

    For RoP/Invoc, why did we want to take Invoc if you can pick the same for 1.5s less cast time. Invoc will be better if RoP will be recast more than 2 time every 60s.
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  20. #20
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    Temporal Shield is being purely buffed for PvP, but it's still not going to be picked over IB.
    Laziness on my part; changes to TS?

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