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  1. #1

    MM may be coming back in 5.2

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Aimed Shot cast time has been lowered from 2.9 to 2.5 sec.
    This is exactly what MM needs. What do you guys think?

    Edit: this is giving us about equivalent of 6800 haste rating reduction to the cast time. With my haste right now it would be a 2.1 second cast time and that is reforging out of haste. Going crit > haste > mastery would drop the cast time to below 2 seconds which could make if more efficient than arcane shotting depending on the damage output. With rapid fire up right now it is at a 1.79 second cast time for me. With the reduction it would be at 1.39 which is huge.

    And this isn't taking into account the 25/15% haste granted from steady focus with/without the 4 piece.

    With the 25% haste from steady focus this puts it at a 1.61 cast time with my haste. With 15% haste from steady focus this puts it at a 1.79 second cast time.

    With RF with the 4 piece I'd be getting a 1.04 second cast time on it! Without it I'd be getting a 1.16 second cast time.

    Which means we probably wouldn't want to stack too much haste, not sure there has got to be a sort of plateau without the 4 piece.
    Last edited by Tehstool; 2013-01-19 at 02:12 PM.

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  2. #2
    Yeah it should be nice. I hope they bring aimed shot into the T15 bonus though, as it stands now it only procs from arcane shot, and with the glyph and this buff I think MM would certainly want to be casting aimed 100% of the time.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehstool View Post
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Aimed Shot cast time has been lowered from 2.9 to 2.5 sec.

    This is exactly what MM needs. What do you guys think?

    Edit: this is giving us about equivalent of 2280 haste rating reduction to the cast time. With my haste right now it would be a 2.1 second cast time and that is reforging out of haste. Going crit > haste > mastery would drop the cast time to below 2 seconds which could make if more efficient than arcane shotting depending on the damage output.
    I love MM, but even with the cast reduction, why not try to put it at 2.4?
    This would definitely help though.
    Also, I wouldn't be opposed to having a slight increase to trueshot aura as well if someone is specced into MM personally, but I'm sure that would cause problems (or they could work on chim/ps a bit).
    Last edited by Beebeey; 2013-01-15 at 10:16 AM.

  4. #4
    it still won't be enough... on top of that the set bonuses for SV are just flat superior. Marks needs more then just that pretend buff to Aimed shot.

    you still won't want to hard cast it unless it is 1sec or less... they aso need it to far harder then it does.



    thi also does NOTHING to deal with th e"bloat" they said they were going to fix and have done fuck all about.

  5. #5
    Marks needs a straight up damage buff, that won't help much

  6. #6
    It's a pretty big increase imo. Still, the PTR has only just begun. More changes are on the way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis003 View Post
    it still won't be enough... on top of that the set bonuses for SV are just flat superior. Marks needs more then just that pretend buff to Aimed shot.

    you still won't want to hard cast it unless it is 1sec or less... they aso need it to far harder then it does.



    thi also does NOTHING to deal with th e"bloat" they said they were going to fix and have done fuck all about.
    Actually, they are cleverly doing it, whether it be intentional or unintentional.

    This is how I look at it. If BM is losing the best 4 piece ever and each spec is basically getting even proc/damage it could make BM the bottom spec and since BM requires the most button mashing and set up out of the 3 they are kind of getting rid of some of it. You also have to take into account how RealPPM scales with your haste and MM will have 15% more haste by default than SV. That will even out the 2pc and give mm more 4 piece procs which would offset the mastery gain a bit. If anything the 3 specs are getting balanced so you can play what you want to play.

    I still think SV/MM will be top come 5.2 though. Probably SV on multi target fights and MM on single target fights.
    Last edited by Tehstool; 2013-01-15 at 10:27 AM.

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  7. #7
    Herald of the Titans Tehterokkar's Avatar
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    They should reduce AiS focus cost to 40 or 35. 50 Focus is just dumb. And also AiS as the filler won't be viable since Tier bonuses(T15) proc from Arcane Shot.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehstool View Post
    It's a pretty big increase imo. Still, the PTR has only just begun. More changes are on the way.
    Actually, they are cleverly doing it, whether it be intentional or unintentional.

    This is how I look at it. If BM is losing the best 4 piece ever and each spec is basically getting even proc/damage it could make BM the bottom spec and since BM requires the most button mashing and set up out of the 3 they are kind of getting rid of some of it. You also have to take into account how RealPPM scales with your haste and MM will have 15% more haste by default than SV. That will even out the 2pc and give mm more 4 piece procs which would offset the mastery gain a bit.

    I still think SV/MM will be top come 5.2 though. Probably SV on multi target fights and MM on single target fights.
    Maybe: I still think they might need to reduce the ct on it a teency bit more, although this would be glorious: As for stacking haste: not so much - just to the point where as is where you need it to be; outside of that MM was fairly crit dependent.
    I really miss the days of ArP though: It was such a delicious time to be a hunter.

    I didn't play during Cataclysm, so I guess I'm not sure about every single thing that got changed.

  9. #9
    Marks needs a flat damage buff, it's pretty obvious. Nothing in our rotation is odd now, there are just some timers to keep track on. This buff won't really change the fact that Arcane Shot is more favourable filler then Aimed Shot. Therefore Aimed Shot will remain used either on 80% phases, or during procs. Way to go, but I don't really think making MM only viable on 100-80% is a good idea. Have a MM on the boss until 80% and replace him quickly, because the remaining portion of his dps sucks?

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehterokkar View Post
    They should reduce AiS focus cost to 40 or 35. 50 Focus is just dumb. And also AiS as the filler won't be viable since Tier bonuses(T15) proc from Arcane Shot.
    The 4 piece only benefits from AS, the 2 piece procs from steady/cobra shot. So before you get that it could be viable.

    If they reduce the cost too much it could get overpowered.

    First change of many I hope, so hopefully more changes are on the way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Okacz View Post
    Marks needs a flat damage buff, it's pretty obvious. Nothing in our rotation is odd now, there are just some timers to keep track on. This buff won't really change the fact that Arcane Shot is more favourable filler then Aimed Shot. Therefore Aimed Shot will remain used either on 80% phases, or during procs. Way to go, but I don't really think making MM only viable on 100-80% is a good idea. Have a MM on the boss until 80% and replace him quickly, because the remaining portion of his dps sucks?
    If that ever occurs, you have an OS.

    Who knows, we'll have to see when 5.2 hits.
    Last edited by Tehstool; 2013-01-15 at 10:35 AM.

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  11. #11
    Herald of the Titans Tehterokkar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tehstool View Post
    The 4 piece only benefits from AS, the 2 piece procs from steady/cobra shot. So before you get that it could be viable.

    If they reduce the cost too much it could get overpowered.

    First change of many I hope, so hopefully more changes are on the way.



    If that ever occurs, you have an OS.

    Who knows, we'll have to see when 5.2 hits.
    I just feel like MM should have something that separates it from SV and BM more.
    Steady Shot is the first thing, next thing should be AS being replaced by AiS in a patchwerk situation, granted AS should still be better at target swapping fights.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Tariz View Post
    Marks needs a straight up damage buff, that won't help much
    This is straight up damage time. Need explanation? Here it is (numbers are taken for sake of simplicity): before you were able to perform 5 Aimed Shots in 10 seconds which dealt 200K damage, 2 of them were crits which caused additional 40K damage for Piercing Shots and you had 2 Wild quiver procs doing 40K. Total 280K. Now you can do 7 Aimed shots in that period, dealing 280K damage, 3 crits causing additional 60K damage through Piercing Shots and 3 Wild Quiver procs doing 60K. Total 400K.
    Lowering cast time actually really means straight up damage buff...

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-15 at 11:54 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis003 View Post
    Marks needs more then just that pretend buff to Aimed shot.
    Pretended buff? Is increasing damage that the ability does over the course of fight a pretended buff? Im not even mentioning about more Wild Quiver procs and more damage from Piercing Shots that will be caused by this "pretended" buff.

    This is actually a very strong buff, Aimed shot will be actually be at just under 2 sec cast time without any haste, Rapid Fire or Heroism, just with 10% haste buff and
    15% haste from Steady Focus, that is 0.3 sec less than before. I hope Blizzard will not "nerf" this buff

  13. #13
    I have very mixed feelings about this. I wouldn't say this is a small meaningless buff but I have my doubts about this actually being anything major. Maybe when we reach certain haste levels where we can spam Aimed Shot instead of Arcane Shot Marksmanship will catch up quite rapidly but before we can see what kind of gear tier 15 will bring us that's hard to tell at this point. It's nice during the Careful Aim phase as well as when we blow Rapid Fire but I think it merely looks better on paper than it will be in practice. I am quite excited though, spamming Arcanes as fillers for Marksmanship always felt wrong to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barberry View Post
    I didn't play during Cataclysm, so I guess I'm not sure about every single thing that got changed.
    Oh if you think armor penetration in Wrath was good, you should have seen Marksmanship in tier 11 after Aimed Shot got buffed. It was hotfixed within 3 weeks IIRC but the damage was so insane that it was normal to just don't do anything besides spamming Aimed Shot. People were doing 180k DPS on a single target dummy with the 100% crit chance on Aimed Shot. While pointless to compare dummy damage, just remember that this was at the start of tier 11 when people had blue gear.

    Anyway pointless and old news.

  14. #14
    So their solution to BM being the FotM is to.... create a new FotM?

    That's a pretty terrible solution. 'Let's force everyone to roll a new spec for absolutely no reason!'

    How about making MM unique and giving it very specific utility that the other specs don't possess? I can't think of anything MM can do better than BM or SV atm. I can think of several things BM and SV can do that are unique to them and useful in a raid.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by gulder View Post
    So their solution to BM being the FotM is to.... create a new FotM?
    ...what?
    How in the world are you even getting to this conclusion?

    It's a minor fix for a 'broken' spec, they are tweaking things so all specs are completely viable. That has always been their goal although not always possible. What does ''FotM'' have to do with that? That aside we play a Hunter. We don't play a Beast Mastery Hunter, or a Survival Hunter. We simply play what currently helps our group out the most whether that's damage or utility. That doesn't mean that the current top spec is suddenly a FotM spec. It simply means that that spec is currently outperforming the others. They don't look at their statistics and say ''Alright BM has been the top spec for a while now, let's make a different spec the top spec now''.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    I have very mixed feelings about this. I wouldn't say this is a small meaningless buff but I have my doubts about this actually being anything major. Maybe when we reach certain haste levels where we can spam Aimed Shot instead of Arcane Shot Marksmanship will catch up quite rapidly but before we can see what kind of gear tier 15 will bring us that's hard to tell at this point. It's nice during the Careful Aim phase as well as when we blow Rapid Fire but I think it merely looks better on paper than it will be in practice. I am quite excited though, spamming Arcanes as fillers for Marksmanship always felt wrong to me.



    Oh if you think armor penetration in Wrath was good, you should have seen Marksmanship in tier 11 after Aimed Shot got buffed. It was hotfixed within 3 weeks IIRC but the damage was so insane that it was normal to just don't do anything besides spamming Aimed Shot. People were doing 180k DPS on a single target dummy with the 100% crit chance on Aimed Shot. While pointless to compare dummy damage, just remember that this was at the start of tier 11 when people had blue gear.

    Anyway pointless and old news.
    That buff was so fun, rip OP aimed shot. aimed shot 75+% of your total damage and topping charts? yes plz

  17. #17
    Yeah this is a huge buff to damage. Remember, Hunter is a class that is only limited by how many abilities we can squeeze into a fight between cast times and GCDs. Our resource isn't really much of an issue, we do damage to gain focus, and we do damage to burn it, it's just a matter of how many of our top damaging abilities we can do within the time frame.

    Remember back in Cata the cast time of Aimed Shot was what, 1.8 seconds to make it worth casting full time? I admit I don't know if it is different now, I haven't bothered digging that far into MM yet this expansion, but assuming it was still 1.8 seconds... well the 10% haste buff and steady focus alone would have us at just about 1.9 seconds making it very easy with any haste on our gear to hit 1.8. Once we pass the breakpoint that aimed shot is worth casting all the time, the value of haste skyrockets, making MM scale even better since it's the only one of our specs that likes haste at all.

  18. #18
    i welcome this change. i was scared about loosing the current 4 piece bonus. a reduced cast time will increase our damage by a notable amount during our 80%+ "burnphase"

    unless ofcourse the new tier bonus will do so much damage that we will want to spam arcane shots instead.

  19. #19
    The way i see it MM is the "Sniper" spec, it should hit Hard and Fast (SV is the poisoner/Explosive and BM is obvious)
    right now AiS/ CS aren't hitting hard enough , AiS should hit much harder then Arcane shot..
    But the problem is we don't know how is MM scaling, with 5.2 gear it might scale better then SV/BM so we need to wait for PTR build with the new gear.

    I've been Tracking GC's tweets and i see nothing regarding MM, we need to make some pressure i don't see many hunters complaining... spam GC's twitter account/ Forums sadly this is the only way blizzard are fixing things

  20. #20
    Well, change like this is nice start but it won't be enough.
    I hope next step will be making Readiness MM only and with 3 min CD (and dmg buff to ES, KC, CS, AS, AiS - to compensate dmg loss for BM and SV and make MM more viable) [That would help MM in both PvE and PvP. And it shouldn't be gamebreaking for other specs]
    Besides i still hope blizz is working on some serious cleave(BM/MM) and multi-dotting(SV) solutions for us.

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