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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by darkwarrior42 View Post
    There's one slot for each primary stat; agility users get a boot enchant, strength users get a glove enchant, intellect users get a cloak enchant. The problem there of course is that it's not quite completely equal... tailors have to give up an intellect enchant for their embroider if casters, but only give up crit if they're physical. Still, overall it's *approximately* equal.

    I do agree they need to work on what enchants are available, but that particular issue isn't quite as bad as it appears, if you look at all the slots.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-04 at 03:04 AM ----------



    DPS in particular often use websites or addons to do reforging because they're trying to get exactly enough hit/expertise to cap, and not any more. While it's possible to calculate that by hand, it's much much faster with a program to do the work for you.

    Short version: the problem is with having stats that have caps you want to reach but not exceed.
    I still dont understand why people need addon to calculate that, because it is obvious when you see that you are already hit capped for an example, so dont reforge more into hit.

  2. #182
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cle View Post
    I still dont understand why people need addon to calculate that, because it is obvious when you see that you are already hit capped for an example, so dont reforge more into hit.
    You obviously don't raid HM's as a DPS.

    Say if you have an option where you have 1450 Hit with an option to reforge 100 Haste into 100 Hit. That's bad.

  3. #183
    If they did away with hit/expertise then I would miss gemming/enchanting/reforging, however, because of these bloody stupid stats, every time we get an upgrade we end up having to completely re-do the entire reforge to make sure we aren't above/below the hit cap.

    Enchanting is less of an issue because there aren't many options for each slot, and one being clearly BiS (usually) but with multiple gemming options it has the same problem, just less so, as reforging.

    So send hit/expertise along the way of the "defense cap" and keep the system as it is (imo).

    -edit-

    And to those who say "it's easy", it isn't when you min/max (which fortunately I don't bother anymore since I don't raid). When you min/max you often end up reforging a stat off one piece to reforge the same stat back on another. This is because you want to get as close to hit/expertise caps as possible without wasting any points going over. Thus you might take 300 hit off one piece, to put 250 back on another because you were 50 over the cap. This is why so spreadsheets/calculators are virtually mandatory for leading edge raiders. Yes, you can eyeball it and get it "pretty close" but not 100% perfect every time.
    Last edited by Dakara; 2013-02-04 at 03:12 AM.

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    You obviously don't raid HM's as a DPS.
    I dont need to, i already know that reforging is simple as it gets.

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Cle View Post
    I dont need to, i already know that reforging is simple as it gets.
    Ignorance is bliss.

    But on the assumption that you're a human calculator who can mentally calculate every combination of reforges and then choose the best one in your head... congrats. Not everyone can.

    In reality, you're simply reforging stats as required to keep hit/expertise capped, and while it works, it's not necessarily the mathematically perfect solution, so not min/max.

  6. #186
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dakara View Post
    And to those who say "it's easy", it isn't when you min/max (which fortunately I don't bother anymore since I don't raid). When you min/max you often end up reforging a stat off one piece to reforge the same stat back on another. This is because you want to get as close to hit/expertise caps as possible without wasting any points going over. Thus you might take 300 hit off one piece, to put 250 back on another because you were 50 over the cap. This is why so spreadsheets/calculators are virtually mandatory for leading edge raiders. Yes, you can eyeball it and get it "pretty close" but not 100% perfect every time.
    Basically this. That's why I argued that hit/exp are bad stats to begin with, because you have to get over the cap, but as little as possible. Hence you have to really hit all of the possibilities to make sure that you're really optimized.

    Just your stupid "oh durrr if you're over don't reforge more hit" isn't good enough for hit cap. It's OK for haste softcaps which is why I said I wasn't as against it.

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by Cle View Post
    I dont need to, i already know that reforging is simple as it gets.
    We're not talking about "I'm hit capped, so won't reforge more hit rating." We're talking "I have 2235 expertise, but only need 2210 because I have a racial. How can I reforge my gear to lower my expertise rating by exactly 25 points?"

    The two are vastly different; the latter is what is made easier by using a program to assist you.

  8. #188
    I would really miss it. I love to "set up" my new piece if I get one after a raid. And it's not really expensive either. Weapon enchants might be at times But how often do you get a new weapon anyway. I really hope they don't remove gems and enchants. It would just "feel too simple" for me.

  9. #189
    seing as enchanting have been a part of the game since vanilla, yes.
    same goes for jw xept that its just since tbc

  10. #190
    I don't mind the customization involved, I just wish they were vendor items instead of player controlled. I'm not a gold maker, I just want to play the game, and it's annoying when things like this that I need are overpriced to ridiculous levels by the people running the auction house.

  11. #191
    Stood in the Fire Gum's Avatar
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    Nope, the more i think about it, the less i actually want it in the game, Odd.

  12. #192
    I'd rather see them get rid of Reforging, and make everything, in regards to Customization, based around Tradeskills. Perhaps Tailors, Leatherworkers, and Blacksmiths would be in charge of "Reforging"?

  13. #193
    Dreadlord Manabomb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merie View Post
    If anything, gemming and enchanting are a liability. As far as customization is considered there's none as you're always just tossing in the "optimal" thing icyveins or elitist jerks are tell you to. (at least back in the day they helped you get to the caps if your gear came up short) But Blizzard does balance content around the assumption that you have them, so they aren't really an advantage to have either. All they contribute to the game is making you feel like you're sub par if you DON'T spend a stupid amount of gold them. Such as it is, if they were simply to remove them then they would simply balance the content around your not having them, so they really aren't helping you by existing.
    I won't deny the fact that the customization is just another word for optimization, however people making similar claims to yours stating that it was similar to the old talent choices are rather off put. With that in the back of my mind, I would like to point out that enchanting and jewelcrafting are as is, insanely easy professions to get to cap. I've leveled both on about 5 different servers ranging from nigh dead to always "high". The cost of jc and enchanting definitely depends on server (especially considering high class weapon enchants and 10 sha crystals) however it's not nearly as much money as people claim it to be. And infact, using jc and enchanting especially on low pop servers you can gain 20-30k a week just by casually buying ghost iron, prospecting and selling cut gems.

    For now I will focus my argument away from the relative cost and money making potential of this topic and move onto something more pressing in my opinion. If we remove these gated tiers of improving our characters (jewelcrafting and especially enchanting and similar systems have been well integrated in rpgs since the mid 90s) then what is exactly the point of getting a new piece of gear, other than to become more powerful?

    It's essentially a play to remove choice, but more specifically remove any more possibilities of choice. If blizzard were to do enchanting correctly, we would have enchants on slots covering all secondary stats for the slots that enchanting covers and have there be no enchanted primary stats (save for rings, for the enchanters themselves) that way you could make a choice between enchanting that last bit of hit/exp or enchanting for haste crit mastery, ect.

    Now there will be some that will come to this argument and ask "What choice, just plug it into "x website" and let it tell you what to do, and my response to that is what system works against that? The new talent systems certainly do not. There is less choice in the newest talent system than there was in the old one, it's exactly how it was before, spec the best and roll. Even on a fight to fight basis there seems to be little change in what talent choices are taken. Granted not choosing the 100% optimal path in this version of talents does not completely gimp you like it would have if this was cata or wotlk talent trees, however the fact each talent either does so little that it can be disregarded or a single talent does so much that it's a must have isn't choice, it's min maxing just like enchanting and jewelcrafting.

    Also, as for removal of racials, because I know it was mentioned in the thread and I want to comment on it, I say no, but equalize racials. Instead of just flat out removing them, do what say rift does. Each race in rift gets an extra mobility use (A sprint, a charge, a disengage, ect) and a resistance to a specific type of magic based on the lore and the home terrain. I'm not saying rip off rift for this specific idea, but I'm saying let's equalize the damage increases and/or mobility increases and/or utility gains and let there be an actual choice in choosing a race that is beyond personal preference or rp reasons, instead of all the races being the exact same or one/two races being extremely strong racial wise. (Humans, undead, orcs).
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  14. #194
    I think if they're going to do away with things it needs to be reforging, item upgrades, and yes, gemming. Frankly, they took a system that wasn't bad and added all these new features to say they're adding new features.

    If you look at those three features what's the point in them really? To fill gaps, that's pretty much it. Dedicating not one, but three areas of game play to that seems asinine. Ditch the features that make it so you need an advanced degree in math to figure out and make the game about the game play.

  15. #195
    Dreadlord Jawless Jones's Avatar
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    i dont really have a problem with gems (pretty cheap on my realm), but my realms enchanters have driven me away from liking enchanting, i have all the mats needed and THEY want a 300-1.5k tip depending on the enchant?? its not like they're losing anything other than a few seconds of their 'oh-so-precious' time
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  16. #196
    Hm, they completely reworked talents because the old system was "do it this way or do it wrong" which didnt allow you any choice, isn't it exactly the same with enchants and gems these days? There is always only one enchant for your spec that's "the right one" for a certain item. Same goes for gems. Reforging already takes care of the hit/exp cap for me anyway, so any gems I use on any char are primary+secondary mastery/haste/spirit.

  17. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Okacz View Post
    I certainly would not. With every piece of equipment I aquire, with every weapon I win (okay, I don't win any, freaking rng) I have the joyfull feeling of being 1 step ahead on stairs of badassery - but this feeling gets a bitter taste of "ffs, now I need to spend 500 gold to gem and enchant this. At least 500". It's just another tedious thing to do, that doesn't add anything to the game itself, but one bullshit profession. Is it such a bad idea to concentrate JC only on vanity items and jewelery?
    I will miss it big time. and if you hate using gold on it get all professions to 600 like i do.

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  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by Thetruth1400 View Post
    I think if they're going to do away with things it needs to be reforging, item upgrades, and yes, gemming. Frankly, they took a system that wasn't bad and added all these new features to say they're adding new features.

    If you look at those three features what's the point in them really? To fill gaps, that's pretty much it. Dedicating not one, but three areas of game play to that seems asinine. Ditch the features that make it so you need an advanced degree in math to figure out and make the game about the game play.
    They were all added for different reasons though. Item upgrades were added so that raiders continuing to raid could do something with their valor points, and as a way to nerf the raids without actually needing to nerf the raids.

    Reforging was added for numerous reasons... among them, to make sure that higher item level pieces are more consistently upgrades. In Wrath, there were many cases where lower level items were superior to higher level items because they had better itemization. Part of that was the fact that primary stats weren't as strong as they are now, but reforging helps ensure that even if a new item has sub-par itemization, it'll still be better.

    Gemming is the most customizable of the systems, and one of the few places where you can truly balance your stats around what you need most. As a healer, I could go heavy on spirit or heavy on power, based on what my gear and raid team is like.

    They all do something similar, but they do it in different ways and for different reasons.

  19. #199
    The Lightbringer foxHeart's Avatar
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    I'd miss them because while they're not exactly "interesting choices" the majority of the time, they are a simple means to progress/optimize your character and I like doing that to each of mine. I see for no reason for enchants or gems to go away ever, really.
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  20. #200
    Yes I would. Gems and enchants (especially gems) enable you to further push your stats in the direction you WANT them to go, rather than being stuck with whatever stats the item gives you. Taking these away takes away stat customization, which, quite frankly, is the dumbest suggestion I've ever heard, considering that was the ENTIRE point of reforging back in Cataclysm.

    I will never understand why human beings feel the need to change shit all the time that really doesn't need changing. It's like if every aspect of everything doesn't get changed it suddenly becomes bad. Yes, change can be good. But change for the sake of change is never the way to go, and I REALLY don't see gems and enchants 'causing ANY harm.

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