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  1. #161
    The Patient drglenn's Avatar
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    I would definitely miss them, but mostly for nostalgic reason. The game would probably benefit from not having such a strong emphasis on enchanting/gemming. Reforging could make up for it.

  2. #162
    Enchanting is fine, but I don't believe gems have worked out well and I would not miss them. I would also not miss Reforging.

    I don't know what Blizzard's actual intent for the gem system was, but right now gems offer two things: It's an extra layer of augmentation and 'customization' (which I think was the real intent), secondly it's another medium for theorycrafters to mix/max their characters. I'm sure many people will disagree but I don't believe the concept of min/maxxing and "optimizing" stats is particulary compelling gameplay, in fact I think it's a horrible chore that adds nothing fun to the game and is the source of endless conflicts between players.

    If Blizzard were to remove all gems with secondary stats, and make the gem system purely a simple augment then I'd be happy with it, even though many people would rage about "dumbing down the game". My personal opinion is that Gems and Reforging are too versatile; the fact that you can do anything with them only leads to you pushing your "primary stat". Enchanting is fine because you don't have much choice between enchants - you take whatever fits and thus Enchanting can't really be subjected to the optimization chore.

    I would much prefer a different gem system; where primary stat gems are rare finds and are used as a simple one-time augment for a few pieces of gear.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Tilde View Post
    He already wants to delete racials, is it surprising he wants to delete any other form of min/maxing?

    Hoping his eventual replacement will have a computer science background...
    What does a computer science background have to do with game system development?
    Absolutely nothing.

    Racials... To be perfectly honest, racials were fun, but are suboptimal at best. Races would do much better to be picked because of personal preference than as a game systems tool. We're all ingrained with the notion of racials ever since Dungeons and Dragons, but the fact of the matter is: If those races are taken because of the benefit they grant to one's class (such as the Forsaken's new lifedrain proc, or Tauren stamina), then those abilities should be represented in the class itself, for balance reasons. I could write you an essay, but I'm afraid I'm limited by both the forum's character limit and my own lack of patience.

    Your understanding of the term 'min/maxing' is also flawed. Min/maxing is taking only that which immediately benefits a single certain goal. For instance: Gemming and enchanting stamina only, and foregoing gear with green stats in favour of raw stamina, is an example of min/maxing. Sure, you'll be an easy target, won't hit anything, can't deal much damage and won't avoid anything, but you sure do have a lot of hit points. Likewise, taking only attack power or haste for damage output while disregarding all other damage stats is min/maxing.
    You're confusing the term with 'optimization,' which is something completely different.

    The point of gemming and enchanting gear is to add customization options (something different again!) that would accommodate your personal playstyle. However, since 'playstyle' has turned into 'use this cookie-cutter rotation, with prio on that proc,' personal playstyle doesn't exist anymore. A lot of people believe that 'cookie cutter' means 'take the talents everyone else does as well,' but while that is a part of it, it is definitely not the total. Cookie-cutter also includes things like 'Get these item pieces, with this specific enchant, those imbues, those gems, and those reforges. Your total hit, expertise, haste and mastery should be around this point if optimum, and their respective values at specific item levels are [], [], and [].'

    Basically, gems and enchants used to be for customization, but now they are cookie-cutter. There is an optimum way to do things, and not to do so would be foolish. Ergo: Enchanting and gem-cutting are now redundant, as their added values to the game system (though not the experience) have, in practice, disappeared. For the system itself, it would be much more beneficial to remove both gems and enchants, and add their values to the items themselves instead. It would prevent some system clutter.

    Of course, all of this goes without saying because, obviously, you understand 'computer science' way better, and thus have a much firmer grasp game systems and all the things that have to do with it.

    To the OP: No, I wouldn't miss it. In the current state of the game, these systems are redundant, sub-optimal and simply inconvenient.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Netherspark View Post
    Enchanting is fine, but I don't believe gems have worked out well and I would not miss them. I would also not miss Reforging.

    I don't know what Blizzard's actual intent for the gem system was, but right now gems offer two things: It's an extra layer of augmentation and 'customization' (which I think was the real intent), secondly it's another medium for theorycrafters to mix/max their characters. I'm sure many people will disagree but I don't believe the concept of min/maxxing and "optimizing" stats is particulary compelling gameplay, in fact I think it's a horrible chore that adds nothing fun to the game and is the source of endless conflicts between players.

    If Blizzard were to remove all gems with secondary stats, and make the gem system purely a simple augment then I'd be happy with it, even though many people would rage about "dumbing down the game". My personal opinion is that Gems and Reforging are too versatile; the fact that you can do anything with them only leads to you pushing your "primary stat". Enchanting is fine because you don't have much choice between enchants - you take whatever fits and thus Enchanting can't really be subjected to the optimization chore.

    I would much prefer a different gem system; where primary stat gems are rare finds and are used as a simple one-time augment for a few pieces of gear.
    Optimizing stats isn't compelling gameplay to you.

    For myself and many others, it's one of the main reasons we play MMO/RPGs.

    I want more micro-upgrades. Instead of dailies, I'd prefer some sort of quests to grind out to increase gear in tiny amounts, even down to 1ilvl increments. I'd prefer several tiers of enchants and gems with varying strengths and difficulties in how they're obtained. Only the bottom few tiers should come from professions while the others become rare drops and rewards for difficult tasks.

    Becoming stronger is always compelling gameplay for me and the upgrade system in 5.0/5.1 was something I've wanted for a very long time, although implemented completely wrong. The upgrades should come from something more interesting and difficult than valor grinding.

  5. #165
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Ignoring the damage it might do to professions, would you miss gemming and enchanting?
    I wouldn't miss enchanting or jewelcrafting.

    I rather see:
    - Enchanting involve weapon enchants and maybe take over some transmog stuff.
    - Jewelcrafting become mining for gems to sell to a vendor for gold (i.e. a simple profession for people that don't like playing on the AH).

  6. #166

  7. #167
    The Lightbringer Skytotem's Avatar
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    What they ought to do is make it so you don't need to make 300 pairs of bronze bracers to get 10 points of blacksmithing, and make similar adjustments for the other professions.

    It's a pain to waste time and cash gathering resources to make things to skill up that you'll never use.
    You are now future Jack Noir.

    Presently, you are trapped in a single moment, which increasingly feels like an eternity. Your boredom is surpassed only by your all consuming rage and contempt for existence itself.

  8. #168
    Actually, I think reforging is what ruined getting gear. Not only once you get a piece you need to gem and grab an enchant. But now you have to reforge. And generally, reforging 1 piece effects others. So now instead of a 150 - 200 gold change to 1 piece of gear. You are up to 400-500 gold because of reforging ( especially if you are using reforgelite to make it perfect )

    I think there are plenty of other professions that lack gaining a stat benefit like Alchemy for example. Big whoop I can use a flask 1 hour longer. Still no true benefit.

    I also think enchanting is great where its at. But there are WAY too many gemming options. I think expertise should be done with. All you really truly should need is Hit, Crit, Haste and Mastery. Thats it. Dodge, Blocking and Parry should be combined into Mastery.

  9. #169
    Brewmaster Orangetai420's Avatar
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    Yes I would miss it. I would miss reforging too if they ever took that out.

    Upgrades I can do without, they aren't fun, exciting, or interesting in anyway.
    Blue text indicates sarcasm or joking.

  10. #170
    Gemming is fine. Enchanting offers too few options to be meaningful as of now.

    The point about cookie-cutter builds being prevalent is a good one, but you're not forced to follow them. Theorycrafting has its limits; it can indicate how to get the best DPS, but it doesn't account for everything. For instance, haste allows you to exploit shorter cast windows. A bit of white hit, once upon a time, was good for warriors since it diminished the volatility of their rage generation; as far as DPS goes it was probably below strength or crit, but it was a quality of life upgrade, which means it flew under theorycraft's radar.

    As a mage raiding during BC (when health pools were far from being as standardised as they are now and when stamina on every piece of gear was far from a given), I remember being suggested to gem stamina to compensate for my pitiful HPs that made me hard to keep alive on some encounters. No amount of number crunching would have told me what amount of stamina would be sufficient for my healers, and it certainly wouldn't have told me to gem stamina in the first place.

    Sometimes, you want to customise in a way that's not considered by simulators.

    Gems let you adapt your gear to your spec or playstyle, as does reforging.

    Enchanting has the merit of allowing to recycle unused items, but it currently has nowhere near the flexibility gems and reforging offer.
    Last edited by Sealed; 2013-02-04 at 02:32 AM.

  11. #171
    i'd miss it, its another step to just making every race/class/spec/item alike instead of showing off how unique things can be.

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Stir View Post
    What does a computer science background have to do with game system development?
    Absolutely nothing.

    Racials... To be perfectly honest, racials were fun, but are suboptimal at best. Races would do much better to be picked because of personal preference than as a game systems tool. We're all ingrained with the notion of racials ever since Dungeons and Dragons, but the fact of the matter is: If those races are taken because of the benefit they grant to one's class (such as the Forsaken's new lifedrain proc, or Tauren stamina), then those abilities should be represented in the class itself, for balance reasons. I could write you an essay, but I'm afraid I'm limited by both the forum's character limit and my own lack of patience.

    Your understanding of the term 'min/maxing' is also flawed. Min/maxing is taking only that which immediately benefits a single certain goal. For instance: Gemming and enchanting stamina only, and foregoing gear with green stats in favour of raw stamina, is an example of min/maxing. Sure, you'll be an easy target, won't hit anything, can't deal much damage and won't avoid anything, but you sure do have a lot of hit points. Likewise, taking only attack power or haste for damage output while disregarding all other damage stats is min/maxing.
    You're confusing the term with 'optimization,' which is something completely different.

    The point of gemming and enchanting gear is to add customization options (something different again!) that would accommodate your personal playstyle. However, since 'playstyle' has turned into 'use this cookie-cutter rotation, with prio on that proc,' personal playstyle doesn't exist anymore. A lot of people believe that 'cookie cutter' means 'take the talents everyone else does as well,' but while that is a part of it, it is definitely not the total. Cookie-cutter also includes things like 'Get these item pieces, with this specific enchant, those imbues, those gems, and those reforges. Your total hit, expertise, haste and mastery should be around this point if optimum, and their respective values at specific item levels are [], [], and [].'

    Basically, gems and enchants used to be for customization, but now they are cookie-cutter. There is an optimum way to do things, and not to do so would be foolish. Ergo: Enchanting and gem-cutting are now redundant, as their added values to the game system (though not the experience) have, in practice, disappeared. For the system itself, it would be much more beneficial to remove both gems and enchants, and add their values to the items themselves instead. It would prevent some system clutter.

    Of course, all of this goes without saying because, obviously, you understand 'computer science' way better, and thus have a much firmer grasp game systems and all the things that have to do with it.

    To the OP: No, I wouldn't miss it. In the current state of the game, these systems are redundant, sub-optimal and simply inconvenient.
    I agree that customization is good. Maybe instead of removing customization, they should make it more difficult to optimize.

    I also don't like the exact same stat quantities on different gear of the same ilevel. Say ilevel N caster pieces all have A stamine, B intellect, C third stat, D fourth stat. I wish they mixed up a little bit. Same with the gems. Distribute stats differently.

    I still miss mana oils and multiple mana pots during combat.

    GC continues to gut the game by simplifying so he does not have to do his job and instead waste time doing his favorite thing: tinker with class balance. Nerfed this class 1.2%, buffed another 0.4%. Every patch over and over in the last couple years this is where the dev effort goes to, instead of making some epic content.

  13. #173
    I would not miss enchanting, for the most part I have one maybe two options to enchant an item with.
    At least with gems I can change them depending on spec regarding what stats that spec favours.

  14. #174
    I don't mind having them but sometimes they really need to think about what enchants are available. For example this tier crit is an awesome stat for Balance Druids, yet there are NO crit enchants for gloves and boots. There's also the issue of casters getting a 180int cloak enchant, yet agility / strength users don't have an equivalent.

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by killidan View Post
    GC continues to gut the game by simplifying so he does not have to do his job and instead waste time doing his favorite thing: tinker with class balance. Nerfed this class 1.2%, buffed another 0.4%. Every patch over and over in the last couple years this is where the dev effort goes to, instead of making some epic content.
    Well, the system developers aren't the ones making the content. That's up to content developers. It's a different branch.
    As for oversimplification: Simplification is good, actually. It is not the same, however, as homogenization. But that's where we're hitting a tough spot: How to keep both balance and variety in a system without drawing different abilities and action styles closer to one another? When are we going to get to the time that auto-shot gets removed to make hunters easier to balance against caster classes?
    To keep variety isn't simple. To keep things simple isn't simple. To try to achieve both at once can be quite difficult, and then you need to make sure it's balanced pretty well against one another... Even more difficult.

    Remember: Whenever you're faced with multiple options, there's always going to be one that's best. And when those options become available to a large audience, you'll always get cookie-cutter builds.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Holyshnikies View Post
    I think there are plenty of other professions that lack gaining a stat benefit like Alchemy for example. Big whoop I can use a flask 1 hour longer. Still no true benefit.

    I also think enchanting is great where its at. But there are WAY too many gemming options. I think expertise should be done with. All you really truly should need is Hit, Crit, Haste and Mastery. Thats it. Dodge, Blocking and Parry should be combined into Mastery.
    The biggest problem with enchanting is that there AREN'T any options, so it's not a choice; it's just a needless expense. It makes you stronger, but so what? Might as well bake those stats into the piece that's getting enchanted.

    Also, Alchemists don't just get longer duration, they get extra stats. A strength/agility/spirit flask gives 1320 stat to an alchemist instead of 1000.

  17. #177
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilde View Post
    He already wants to delete racials, is it surprising he wants to delete any other form of min/maxing?
    Because min/maxing by being having to pay $15 for a race you wouldn't otherwise play (in an RPG) is such fucking compelling gameplay.

  18. #178
    Why do you need some addon to tell what you should reforge? Just read the importance order of all stats and make decisions based on that.

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by quikbunny View Post
    I don't mind having them but sometimes they really need to think about what enchants are available. For example this tier crit is an awesome stat for Balance Druids, yet there are NO crit enchants for gloves and boots. There's also the issue of casters getting a 180int cloak enchant, yet agility / strength users don't have an equivalent.
    There's one slot for each primary stat; agility users get a boot enchant, strength users get a glove enchant, intellect users get a cloak enchant. The problem there of course is that it's not quite completely equal... tailors have to give up an intellect enchant for their embroider if casters, but only give up crit if they're physical. Still, overall it's *approximately* equal.

    I do agree they need to work on what enchants are available, but that particular issue isn't quite as bad as it appears, if you look at all the slots.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-04 at 03:04 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Cle View Post
    Why do you need some addon to tell what you should reforge? Just read the importance order of all stats and make decisions based on that.
    DPS in particular often use websites or addons to do reforging because they're trying to get exactly enough hit/expertise to cap, and not any more. While it's possible to calculate that by hand, it's much much faster with a program to do the work for you.

    Short version: the problem is with having stats that have caps you want to reach but not exceed.

  20. #180
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    Nope gemming and enchanting are fun. You can look at someone else's gems/chants and know if that person is terrible or not. They took away so many ways you can possibly be bad/lazy, why take away them all? I like being able to click inspect and, without ever playing with a person, instantly know that person will never do anything good with their life because they stack mastery as a Prot Paladin.
    Paladin Bash has spoken.

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