Will rogues ever be good with anything other than daggers again?

[Phurox]

As topic says, will we ever be good with other weapons again like swords, maces and fists, or is this just a ended chapter?

Rogues were pretty nasty in BC with sub, but AFAIK only way to run with swords or maces are in combat, which is a boring as hell spec.

[D3athsting]

NO
Blizz's and GC's intent is to dumb the game down to allow a miserable itemization: you have only 1 weapon for combat and only one for mut/assa for every tier, why do u think they removed weapon type based talents? No more swords (enh can't use them), no more axes, just ugly looking fist weapons...
Here's a nice article on joystiq, it's 1 year old but still actual
http://wow.joystiq.com/2012/02/17/re...-in-cataclysm/

[Phurox]

This saddens me. Sounds like Rogue is dead to me After being my main in all expansions...

Sad times indeed.

But uhm... Who uses agi swords or fists if rogues do not?

[D3athsting]

This saddens me. Sounds like Rogue is dead to me After being my main in all expansions...

Sad times indeed.

But uhm... Who uses agi swords or fists if rogues do not?

I feel your way, i think i'm going to dust off my double bladed lightsaber (guess the game :P) so i don't have to fight anymore with a a blackened chicken's foot (aka claws of shek'zeer) in my hand...

[kartmanlol]

If you don't like the look you can always transmog

[D3athsting]

If you don't like the look you can always transmog

You can't transmog fists and daggers into anything else different from fists and daggers, rogues are fuc*ed up in 5.2

[Phurox]

If you don't like the look you can always transmog

I'm tired of using small lightning matches while others are using massive 2 handers or 1h swords/maces/fists.

You cannot transmorg daggers to swords, sadly.

But seriously. who uses agi swords fists or maces if rogues do not?

[Jawless Jones]

This saddens me. Sounds like Rogue is dead to me After being my main in all expansions...

Sad times indeed.

But uhm... Who uses agi swords or fists if rogues do not?

monks 'use' them

and i say 'use' because they actually dont use the swords, they use their hands =P

[checking facts]

monks 'use' them

and i say 'use' because they actually dont use the swords, they use their hands =P

they use swords for jab.

unless they take the glyph.

[Jawless Jones]

they use swords for jab.

unless they take the glyph.

i've been using that glyph for so long, that i forgot it was a glyph at all lol

[Phurox]

This is really frustrating. I loved when we could use the weapons we wanted to use.

Guess I have to reroll.

[Deleted]

On another note, what's your problem with daggers anyway? Look at Hunters. They only have bows/crossbows. I'd say it'd only make perfect sense for rogues to only use daggers as well. I don't see why you specifically demand swords and maces be viable. Daggers are the iconic weapons of the class.

If it were up to me, I'd want daggers used in all 3 specs. Furthermore, they should come in sets. One dagger (the item) should give two daggers (equipped). That would finally address the problem of having to hunt and enchant two separate weapons - while others can make do with one.

If you want to "use massive 2 handers"... Then I suggest you roll Warrior. I frankly don't understand why you'd seek that kinda content in the rogue class. This isn't Final Fantasy... :P

[Anium]

fist weaps say hi... seriously though has anyone ever used one since bc? I highly suspect no. They could have so much potential...

[Phurox]

On another note, what's your problem with daggers anyway? Look at Hunters. They only have bows/crossbows. I'd say it'd only make perfect sense for rogues to only use daggers as well. I don't see why you specifically demand swords and maces be viable. Daggers are the iconic weapons of the class.

If it were up to me, I'd want daggers used in all 3 specs. Furthermore, they should come in sets. One dagger (the item) should give two daggers (equipped). That would finally address the problem of having to hunt and enchant two separate weapons - while others can make do with one.

If you want to "use massive 2 handers"... Then I suggest you roll Warrior. I frankly don't understand why you'd seek that kinda content in the rogue class. This isn't Final Fantasy... :P

Funny thing is...

In BC I really wanted daggers to be viable in sub...

But since I rolled with big fists and swords, a tiny non-noticeable dagger just doesnt fit it for me no more.

I understand what you're saying. But we have used it in the past, and then they take it from us.

Might play on my Dk

[khatsoo]

I'm tired of using small lightning matches while others are using massive 2 handers or 1h swords/maces/fists.

You cannot transmorg daggers to swords, sadly.

But seriously. who uses agi swords fists or maces if rogues do not?

And I'm tired of the 'rogues' that don't feel the class. If you want massive weapons and shiny stuff, you got other options (or face it and play combat and transmog w/e you can).

And not only dps/tank Monks, Enhancement shamans also share the agi one-handers and fists (maybe not the swords?).

[Tenjen]

some rogues are the stealthy stabby with daggers kind, others a myrmodins or swash bucklers with swords. others yet are brutish combatants who break joints and faces with maces. or lithe battlefield combatents with fist weapons.

And your answer is yes, cause this thing seems to happen in a cycle. People were wondering if rogues would EVER use daggers again a couple or more expansions ago.

and the dps gap is not THAT huge between weapons and the specs that use them (nervous glance at sub) err sorta. unless you're a top of your game min maxer or in the upper echelons of raiding and pvp.

[Carp The Fish]

There are Agility maces next tier, which means we'll be able to use swords. (transmog rules, everybody!)

Combat is our second most-scaling spec, meaning it will be viable again for all of your needs in 5.2 (possibly the best single-target once you're in a full set of normal or heroic T15 gear).

And if you're really going to be that self-entitled about what weapon you want to use, go play one of the other 10 classes. That's what they are there for.

[Verain]

I don't think we'll go back to the days of sub ever using a slow mainhand- and honestly, I don't want to.

For those that forgot, you had three playstyles:

1)- If you just had a dagger, you would rely on backstab. You would only press hemo if energy capped, and you would have to use it sometimes. Hemo was MUCH weaker than today- check out hemo's different dagger and sword scaling . Now pretend it's just the sword scaling, because it was. Hemo with a dagger was goddamned useless.
2)- If you just had a sword, you would rely on hemo. This was less effective than backstab, about by the order it would be today to just hemo and never backstab. So it wasn't perfect either. You also COULD NOT AMBUSH with the sword, so shadow dance wasn't something you would spec all the way down to.
3)- If you had both, you could make a weapon swap macro for hemo, and one for backstab (and usually another for ambush). This way you would have a dagger out when you wanted to dance and you could ambush, and if your opponent was overly mobile you would press your hemo button, first switching in your slow mainhand and second hitting him with it.

All of these just to use the buttons the class had? Screw that! Today is MUCH better off.


Now, I would like to see combat viable. Here's some suggestions for that:

> Bandit's Guile should offer either proof against some CC or defensive benefits, or both. Much as shadow dance isn't just damage for subt, red insight should be more than just dps. Perhaps it could offer root and snare immunity.
> A spell deflection ability would be an excellent combat short term cooldown.
> Riposte brought back in a meaningful and fun way could help combat in pvp.
> A hindering debuff could also be useful and in kit for combat.

Any or some of these could help combat have a bigger role in pvp.

[Canderous1]

i actually like combat, but i roll with assassination spec because i cannot stand fist weapons. gimme swords or axes please. they keep saying they are trying to figure out why the rogue population is low. the answer is staring them in the face. there is 1 best spec, and 1 weapon type.

[Verain]

Well there's '1 best spec, 1 best weapon type" for mages as well, and they have no problems. Plus, combat has use, and sub is not bad- rogue specs in pve are much more diverse than hunters, and are on par with locks.

I don't think that's the issue.



So, I've said this before but broadly- the rogue class needs to be stronger. I don't mean in raids, and I'm not even talking about the type of pvp that they are fixing in 5.2. I just mean, when I level my paladin, she has a spell that literally one shots equal level mobs when it crits- from range (exorcism). When nothing crits she stands for a few seconds, each hit more than decimating the life bar, and win in a couple globals.

On my lowbie rogue, fights are much slower, even if I start with a full energy bar.

If I attack an enemy player, my lowbie paladin can holy flame or word of glory to max health every 10 seconds or so. My lowbie rogue can vanish once the enemy casts power word: shield, because it's over but for the rogue screaming. While I'm sure you all remember twink rogues one-shotting your alts at level 30 BGs (I certainly do), remember that even this one trick stunt required some nonsense and stacking to work- and it got fixed.

These experiences, though brief for me, are actually a big part of why players pick classes. Many of the lowbie classes are wildly overpowered- and those moves continue to be defining and powerful through level 90. A mainstay of our pvp is actually shuriken throw, a level 90 ability.


Now, lets forget about lowbies levelling in the world- lets take something ubiquitous to pve up to level 90- dungeons. Dungeons ARE pve in this game outside of the folks that LFR or raid. While numerous, is that even a majority? Leveling, it is obvious which job does the most damage- the tank. This is even true at level 90. For all of the Pandaren dungeons, the tank is the most damage until your item level is well past the 463 that the dungeons SHOULD be relevant up to (you will often still run dungeons even in 510+ gear, for valor, but that's just Blizzard putting something for you in obsolete content so you'll run it with new players). There's even a raid boss that offers sustained aoe (a mutilate trick, with survival now boss- but really, it's the tank). If you could simply spawn mundane 5 man elite adds on command, that would be a dps boost on some fights, because the tank could take them.

In order for a pure to top a meter in any content that is current for him, he has to be super dedicated- he has to be raid geared in current raid gear. At any point before that, tanks blow him away in damage dealt (and even after, depending). Unlike the other three pures, the rogue is wasting a melee spot doing terrible dps. Unlike the healing hybrids, he can't heal. He has to be in melee, and he's the worst guy for that job- until you level him to 90 and raid for months. Then and ONLY then do you have a character that is anything but a burden to the rest of the wow populace.

Almost all our time is spent discussing that narrow section of the class- people like us who pvp each season, who raid at decent intensity, who math out stuff with spreadsheets and play their best. But WoW is more than just us, and if you want to ask why rogues are underpopulated, it's because the class is objectively terrible at all content that a casual player sees.