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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    I don't think we'll go back to the days of sub ever using a slow mainhand- and honestly, I don't want to.

    For those that forgot, you had three playstyles:

    1)- If you just had a dagger, you would rely on backstab. You would only press hemo if energy capped, and you would have to use it sometimes. Hemo was MUCH weaker than today- check out hemo's different dagger and sword scaling . Now pretend it's just the sword scaling, because it was. Hemo with a dagger was goddamned useless.
    2)- If you just had a sword, you would rely on hemo. This was less effective than backstab, about by the order it would be today to just hemo and never backstab. So it wasn't perfect either. You also COULD NOT AMBUSH with the sword, so shadow dance wasn't something you would spec all the way down to.
    3)- If you had both, you could make a weapon swap macro for hemo, and one for backstab (and usually another for ambush). This way you would have a dagger out when you wanted to dance and you could ambush, and if your opponent was overly mobile you would press your hemo button, first switching in your slow mainhand and second hitting him with it.
    Uh I don't remember that being right at all. Hemo was not normalized for the longest time so if you had an extra slow weapon it hit insanely hard. Backstab was also considerably more energy. After that early vanilla normalization patch, slow hemo was better than dagger sub. That remained until probably wrath. Even in BC you could wreck with slow weapon hemo. I'm not sure if per swing hemo did more than backstab with equivalent weapons, but it was far cheaper and they give the same amount of cp.

    For the swords thing, I really don't get why shaman can't use them. They can transmog their mace into a sword... might as well let them use swords.

    I don't see the whole 'daggers are the iconic weapon of the class.' Daggers were crap for the entirety of the BC expansion. They were also not really kings in vanilla either thanks to some potentially OP weapons that you could possibly end up with. I have no problem with daggers thematically for the sneaky type rogue, but I don't think daggers make sense for anything that favors a frontal approach which is essentially what combat is.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    Uh I don't remember that being right at all. Hemo was not normalized for the longest time so if you had an extra slow weapon it hit insanely hard.
    Hells yeah it did. I remember one shotting a fresh lvl 70 mage on QD back in BC. Ah Shs Hemo was so much fun.

  3. #23
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    Combat is nearly the same as Mut this tier, so your title is off leading.

    The answer to your huge weps question is to reroll Combat if you aint yet, and transmog your fist weapons to http://www.wowhead.com/item=37631 which I currently do in Combat.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Anium View Post
    fist weaps say hi... seriously though has anyone ever used one since bc? I highly suspect no. They could have so much potential...
    been using agi Fists on my Enh Sham for a long time, transmog'd into the fiery fist off Al'ar. Those+T5, soooo sick

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    Uh I don't remember that being right at all. Hemo was not normalized for the longest time so if you had an extra slow weapon it hit insanely hard.
    It never hit "insanely hard". For instance, it never hit harder than a comperable backstab. The "slow weapon" trick did continue to work- but remember that other moves had multipliers on them. For instance, hemo would hit like exactly as hard as a white hit (aka, not normalized), but SS would be normalized and with a constant added in and like a 1.25x multiplier.

    You would OF COURSE want a slower weapon with hemo. Because it was not normalized until much later than the other moves. However, that distinction didn't allow it to hit "insanely hard". It just hit harder than hemo WITHOUT that trick.

    Backstab was also considerably more energy.
    But for most patches was still better dpe. Again, this is because of that +crit chance backstab packs. Don't forget that one of the advantages of hemo was that it only cost one talent point for hemo to be good, but backstab cost several more (at which point it was better). A hemo rogue could buy some utility with those points, but you just didn't hit as hard as backstab.

    After that early vanilla normalization patch, slow hemo was better than dagger sub.
    Oh, you definitely used hemo preferentially at that point, yes. If you could pve as sub (and mostly you could not) I'm not so sure it would work out like that though.

    That remained until probably wrath. Even in BC you could wreck with slow weapon hemo. I'm not sure if per swing hemo did more than backstab with equivalent weapons, but it was far cheaper and they give the same amount of cp.
    And you got to use your talent points for other stuff, like cheat death. The only interest in sub was pve until HAT was launched at the tail end of BC.

    A lot of what I wrote- like when you wanted the weapon swap stuff- was for later. If you go back long enough, you didn't want to mess with +%backstab in combat and +crit backstab in assassination when you could be buying much better stuff.

    For the swords thing, I really don't get why shaman can't use them. They can transmog their mace into a sword... might as well let them use swords.
    They can't on live, and I doubt they'll be able to in the patch. The idea is that the shamans come from cultures that didn't have swords until recently. At this point I want them to, though, so we can actually see them itemized.

    I don't see the whole 'daggers are the iconic weapon of the class.' Daggers were crap for the entirety of the BC expansion.
    That's because assassination was crap, and at that point combat daggers was no longer a thing. Daggers ARE iconic- Blizzard just took a long time to support a playstyle that used them. If you could have reached mutilate and prep in BC, that would have been THE spec, for instance. If hemo used different math for daggers back then, you would have used them then too.


    They were also not really kings in vanilla either thanks to some potentially OP weapons that you could possibly end up with.
    Blizzard neglecting rogues back then was seriously in style, so you are saying "they weren't iconic because Blizzard didn't make a really good one". Mostly, that is true.

    I have no problem with daggers thematically for the sneaky type rogue, but I don't think daggers make sense for anything that favors a frontal approach which is essentially what combat is.
    I generally agree, but now even assassination is nondirectional (it's the ONLY nondirectional spec- don't forget killing spree). I wouldn't mind combat using daggers just to put us on par with the other pures who don't need to get so collect so many weapons. Live is still a huge advantage over BC, when I felt like some kind of crazy weapon collector ("theshe mashes SHTUN and thish schword SWINGTH TWICETH SOMETIMETH! It's SEW KEWL to have a bag of weaponsh!")

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    Well there's '1 best spec, 1 best weapon type" for mages as well, and they have no problems. Plus, combat has use, and sub is not bad- rogue specs in pve are much more diverse than hunters, and are on par with locks.

    I don't think that's the issue.



    So, I've said this before but broadly- the rogue class needs to be stronger. I don't mean in raids, and I'm not even talking about the type of pvp that they are fixing in 5.2. I just mean, when I level my paladin, she has a spell that literally one shots equal level mobs when it crits- from range (exorcism). When nothing crits she stands for a few seconds, each hit more than decimating the life bar, and win in a couple globals.

    On my lowbie rogue, fights are much slower, even if I start with a full energy bar.

    If I attack an enemy player, my lowbie paladin can holy flame or word of glory to max health every 10 seconds or so. My lowbie rogue can vanish once the enemy casts power word: shield, because it's over but for the rogue screaming. While I'm sure you all remember twink rogues one-shotting your alts at level 30 BGs (I certainly do), remember that even this one trick stunt required some nonsense and stacking to work- and it got fixed.

    These experiences, though brief for me, are actually a big part of why players pick classes. Many of the lowbie classes are wildly overpowered- and those moves continue to be defining and powerful through level 90. A mainstay of our pvp is actually shuriken throw, a level 90 ability.


    Now, lets forget about lowbies levelling in the world- lets take something ubiquitous to pve up to level 90- dungeons. Dungeons ARE pve in this game outside of the folks that LFR or raid. While numerous, is that even a majority? Leveling, it is obvious which job does the most damage- the tank. This is even true at level 90. For all of the Pandaren dungeons, the tank is the most damage until your item level is well past the 463 that the dungeons SHOULD be relevant up to (you will often still run dungeons even in 510+ gear, for valor, but that's just Blizzard putting something for you in obsolete content so you'll run it with new players). There's even a raid boss that offers sustained aoe (a mutilate trick, with survival now boss- but really, it's the tank). If you could simply spawn mundane 5 man elite adds on command, that would be a dps boost on some fights, because the tank could take them.

    In order for a pure to top a meter in any content that is current for him, he has to be super dedicated- he has to be raid geared in current raid gear. At any point before that, tanks blow him away in damage dealt (and even after, depending). Unlike the other three pures, the rogue is wasting a melee spot doing terrible dps. Unlike the healing hybrids, he can't heal. He has to be in melee, and he's the worst guy for that job- until you level him to 90 and raid for months. Then and ONLY then do you have a character that is anything but a burden to the rest of the wow populace.

    Almost all our time is spent discussing that narrow section of the class- people like us who pvp each season, who raid at decent intensity, who math out stuff with spreadsheets and play their best. But WoW is more than just us, and if you want to ask why rogues are underpopulated, it's because the class is objectively terrible at all content that a casual player sees.
    Well said.

    My rational is Rogues are the only class that can put Agility daggers to good use. Everyone else is better off with non daggers. Rogues are therefore defaulted to having daggers be their best weapons because no one else wants them. I really wish they would give us a ranged DPS spec centered around throwing shit, the only pure melee dps spec deserves a 4th spec and it shouldn't be another melee spec. I really am tired of sitting in melee range.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    Well there's '1 best spec, 1 best weapon type" for mages as well, and they have no problems. Plus, combat has use, and sub is not bad- rogue specs in pve are much more diverse than hunters, and are on par with locks.

    I don't think that's the issue.
    Mages and lock are casters, weapons are just stats for em...

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Phurox View Post
    As topic says, will we ever be good with other weapons again like swords, maces and fists, or is this just a ended chapter?

    Rogues were pretty nasty in BC with sub, but AFAIK only way to run with swords or maces are in combat, which is a boring as hell spec.
    A lot of what made weapon type a factor was its native bonus - all maces had a chance to stun -, and the effort needed to be able to wield it. The first proved impossible to balance, and the second became an irrelevant annoyance factor as people who just acquired new weapons needed to hit lvl 13s in The Barrens for hours before they could use it. (The players tanking Kael'thas will probably nod in agreement here).

    Today, the only gameplay relevance of weapons is that some rogue specs/abilities require daggers. If I understand correctly, you're saying that just as assassination needs dual daggers to mutilate, it would be cool if combat needed (for example) dual swords to use certain abilities. Personally I don't see that this will improve gameplay - limiting progression paths by something that's strictly flavor won't help us. But the upcoming transmog changes are certainly a nod in the right direction of letting us feel like swashbucklers, thieves and assassins again.

  9. #29
    Bloodsail Admiral Anium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vantricular View Post
    been using agi Fists on my Enh Sham for a long time, transmog'd into the fiery fist off Al'ar. Those+T5, soooo sick
    rogue forum buddy

  10. #30
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    Only reasonable explaination for people wanting it back, our good old friend Nostalgia.
    It doesn't REALLY matter what weapons you use, unless you like to sit around Org / SW all day touching your sword while watching your swords (couldn't resist, hurr durr etc).
    Although I think that sooner or later they will allow cross-weapon-type-transmog, it's just a question about how many people want it loud enough.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by D3athsting View Post
    Mages and lock are casters, weapons are just stats for em...
    Sort of true, but that bonus spellpower is the same thing as our dps. More importantly, the point I was making is that the fact that there's only one best spec and one best weapon type is probably not a determining factor for the lack of rogue popularity.

    Honestly, it was pleasing for combat to care about weapon types, but as said, it was impossible to balance for everyone.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    In order for a pure to top a meter in any content that is current for him, he has to be super dedicated- he has to be raid geared in current raid gear. At any point before that, tanks blow him away in damage dealt (and even after, depending). Unlike the other three pures, the rogue is wasting a melee spot doing terrible dps. Unlike the healing hybrids, he can't heal. He has to be in melee, and he's the worst guy for that job- until you level him to 90 and raid for months. Then and ONLY then do you have a character that is anything but a burden to the rest of the wow populace.
    ........huh?

    As for the OP, I agree with many on this thread that swords/maces/axes/fists are going to continue only bieng good for combat. If you insist on using larger weapons and you don't like combat spec then I'm afraid you are correct in your assumption that you will have to switch to your DK. Seems like allowing dagger transmogging to different weapon types would be a big fix to this. However, if you've ever used a skymirror or potion to resemble someone else and then played assas, you'll see that the animations don't really sync up. I don't expect them to allow for dagger to other than dagger transmogs anytime soon.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    It never hit "insanely hard". For instance, it never hit harder than a comperable backstab. The "slow weapon" trick did continue to work- but remember that other moves had multipliers on them. For instance, hemo would hit like exactly as hard as a white hit (aka, not normalized), but SS would be normalized and with a constant added in and like a 1.25x multiplier.
    Ok, I should have said insanely hard for a 35 energy attack. Also I am pretty sure when everyone started using HARP for pvp that was after a buff to hemo that made it 120%.

    You would OF COURSE want a slower weapon with hemo. Because it was not normalized until much later than the other moves. However, that distinction didn't allow it to hit "insanely hard". It just hit harder than hemo WITHOUT that trick.
    Yeah again, should have said for the cost. Compared to many moves in the game, it wasn't that much.

    But for most patches was still better dpe. Again, this is because of that +crit chance backstab packs. Don't forget that one of the advantages of hemo was that it only cost one talent point for hemo to be good, but backstab cost several more (at which point it was better). A hemo rogue could buy some utility with those points, but you just didn't hit as hard as backstab.
    The actual attack no, but it wasn't far behind. The main thing setting it way ahead was 35 energy for 1 combo point versus 60 for 1 combo point. You hardly got any finishers with backstab builds back then due the cost and there not being any extra cp or energy regen talents except RS which everyone took and seal fate if you were assassination.

    Oh, you definitely used hemo preferentially at that point, yes. If you could pve as sub (and mostly you could not) I'm not so sure it would work out like that though.

    And you got to use your talent points for other stuff, like cheat death. The only interest in sub was pve until HAT was launched at the tail end of BC.
    HARP was competitive in PvE. I don't think it quite edged out the standard spec but it was really close and did allow for more burst with the extra ARs. As for a pure sub spec, there was nothing until at least WotLK worth trying to take cheat death for.

    A lot of what I wrote- like when you wanted the weapon swap stuff- was for later. If you go back long enough, you didn't want to mess with +%backstab in combat and +crit backstab in assassination when you could be buying much better stuff.
    I honestly can't remember the vanilla trees that well, but you did get the backstab stuff for combat daggers I'm pretty sure.

    They can't on live, and I doubt they'll be able to in the patch. The idea is that the shamans come from cultures that didn't have swords until recently. At this point I want them to, though, so we can actually see them itemized.
    Well on live you can only transmog to the same weapon type so obviously they can't. Pretty sure it works on the ptr though.

    That's because assassination was crap, and at that point combat daggers was no longer a thing. Daggers ARE iconic- Blizzard just took a long time to support a playstyle that used them. If you could have reached mutilate and prep in BC, that would have been THE spec, for instance. If hemo used different math for daggers back then, you would have used them then too.
    Why are they iconic if from the get go they weren't any more useful than the other stuff? Because of backstab type abilities requiring them? I mean they are obviously an important aspect of being a rogue in general, but as far as the origins of our class in this game, I'm not seeing it. As for mut/prep in BC, I doubt it. Prep wasn't a dps increase back then so it would have not been close in pve. For the majority of BC, mace stuns were where it. We also had HARP and I don't think mut/prep would have been as good as HARP (assuming the didn't nerf it which I think is fair since you are talking about mut/prep). And specifically, if you happened to have them, warglaive HARP with your 2.8 speed non normalized hemo (again pre nerf).

    If hemo had the bonus for daggers back then sure, but it didn't. It wasn't intended to be a dagger spec. They just decided later on that they wanted daggers to be more useful. I mean that makes sense. You have an entire weapon type which is only really usable by 1 class and yet (in BC) that 1 class wanted nothing to do with it. From a design standpoint, thats dumb. It makes no sense to keep a weapon type no one uses, yet daggers are a staple of rpgs so removing them entirely seems dumb too.


    Blizzard neglecting rogues back then was seriously in style, so you are saying "they weren't iconic because Blizzard didn't make a really good one". Mostly, that is true.

    I generally agree, but now even assassination is nondirectional (it's the ONLY nondirectional spec- don't forget killing spree). I wouldn't mind combat using daggers just to put us on par with the other pures who don't need to get so collect so many weapons. Live is still a huge advantage over BC, when I felt like some kind of crazy weapon collector ("theshe mashes SHTUN and thish schword SWINGTH TWICETH SOMETIMETH! It's SEW KEWL to have a bag of weaponsh!")
    Yeah actually I think that works fine. The icon of something should be what you think of. When I think of vanilla/BC rogues I think of thunderfury, chrom swords, servo arms, OP sword/mace spec, glaives, etc.

    KS isn't really a directional attack. You can just kill yourself with it. They could make it instead randomly teleport you anywhere in melee range instead of behind the target and it would have the exact same downside. I do agree that it currently sucks to have to have different weapons for combat, but I dont remember being a weapons collector in BC. At most you might have had a set of pvp maces to pvp with in addition to your pve weapons. You always needed at least 1 additional weapon for pvp for the weapon chain.

  14. #34
    I will disagree with HARP being competitive in pve. It was USED in pve, but the damage delta was like 25%. That was probably considered ok in the day, but like... you wouldn't bring HARP to a raid. The issue is all the talent points you were leaving on the table to reach that second AR every five minutes- and of course, you also missed the passive boost from surprise attacks, and didn't have the spare talent points for the A tree to get extra poison damage and other trickery as a real pve build would get. You could walk it into pve, but not to progressy things.

    s for mut/prep in BC, I doubt it. Prep wasn't a dps increase back then so it would have not been close in pve.
    I was referring to pvp. In pve, you could run assassination- it was a pve spec- but it didn't normally compare to combat. Both were miles ahead of pve sub in BC era though. Because mutilate hit so damned hard back then (and remember it was positional, just like backstab) it actually did have immense burst potential. Classic hemo had cold blood, remember. There WERE a few high ranked mutilate rogues back then- mostly based on dealing uncounterable burst with full energy pools (the most famous used the renataki trinket for an extra dose of energy). With prep, many more rogues would have tried it, was my point- daggers always narrowly missed being desired. Blizzard, I'm pretty sure, intended for daggers to be good, and always fell short until later.

    KS isn't really a directional attack. You can just kill yourself with it.
    It makes you care where the ass of the boss is.

    They could make it instead randomly teleport you anywhere in melee range instead of behind the target and it would have the exact same downside.
    Well, yea, but that doesn't make it not positional. If the direction you had to backstab from changed randomly each time, would you argue it's not positional?

    Actually be careful, or we'll get that built into backstab. Every time, the name changes. Backstab -> Rightbuttstab -> Leftjawstab -> Facestab!

    I dont remember being a weapons collector in BC. At most you might have had a set of pvp maces to pvp with in addition to your pve weapons. You always needed at least 1 additional weapon for pvp for the weapon chain.
    If you wanted to run mutilate, you needed daggers. If you wanted to run HARP (later SHARP in LK) you wanted maces. If you wanted to run pve combat, you wanted swords. To be a good rogue able to play all your specs you needed:

    Slow mainhand dagger (pve+pvp)
    Slow offhand dagger + weapon chain. (pvp)
    Fast offhand dagger (pve)
    Slow mainhand mace (pvp)
    Fast offhand mace (pvp)
    Slow mainhand sword (pve)
    Fast offhand sword (pve)

    That's plenty, thanks! By comparison, a mage needed:
    Any weapon with the most spellpower (pve+pvp)
    An offhand with the most spellpower (pve+pvp), if the top one wasn't as staff


    You can say "OH, but you didn't NEED daggers". Which shuts down a whole tree and several tricks you could do. No, you don't NEED all three of your trees... if you are a rogue...

  15. #35

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Incineration View Post
    On another note, what's your problem with daggers anyway? Look at Hunters. They only have bows/crossbows. I'd say it'd only make perfect sense for rogues to only use daggers as well. I don't see why you specifically demand swords and maces be viable. Daggers are the iconic weapons of the class.

    If it were up to me, I'd want daggers used in all 3 specs. Furthermore, they should come in sets. One dagger (the item) should give two daggers (equipped). That would finally address the problem of having to hunt and enchant two separate weapons - while others can make do with one.

    If you want to "use massive 2 handers"... Then I suggest you roll Warrior. I frankly don't understand why you'd seek that kinda content in the rogue class. This isn't Final Fantasy... :P


    I wouldn't want just daggers. The rogue type classes were not only limited to daggers in D&D, and that tabletop game is sort of the father to a lot of this stuff.

  17. #37
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    Well I got another suggestion aswell, though its banable - wont link any sites or direct names of program, but you can use a 3rd program to "transmog" your gear to what ever you want, I run around with two daggers and all that - but on my screen it shows Warglaives. Heck, I could run around with two Hand of Sulfuras if I wanted.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Brianjosel View Post
    I wouldn't want just daggers. The rogue type classes were not only limited to daggers in D&D, and that tabletop game is sort of the father to a lot of this stuff.
    Well, why not? It'd be a huge quality of life improvement over having to collect 2 separate daggers for one spec, 2 heavier weapons for another, and potentially 1 additional dagger for optimal itemization. That's a total of 5 weapons we have to collect and enchant just to have all our specs available to us. Which, to me, seems very unnecessary, seeing as out of the 6 weapons we use across all our specs, only 1 weapon definitely has to be a slower weapon(namely Combat's main hand).

    Aesthetics aside, there's no reason NOT to make all specs "dagger-only" specs, just to make life easier and to improve spec-compatibility. And as suggested, combing daggers into one item would further remove the collection-penalty that's forced upon us by design(at least a Frost DK can go either way...).

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    For the swords thing, I really don't get why shaman can't use them. They can transmog their mace into a sword... might as well let them use swords.
    Nope. One of the major rules of transmog is you need to be able to equip the item you're transmogging to. Shaman can't equip swords, ergo shaman can't transmog swords.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-16 at 02:41 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Nonslid View Post
    Well I got another suggestion aswell, though its banable - wont link any sites or direct names of program, but you can use a 3rd program to "transmog" your gear to what ever you want, I run around with two daggers and all that - but on my screen it shows Warglaives. Heck, I could run around with two Hand of Sulfuras if I wanted.
    And that can get you banned. In order to do that requires modification of the game's files, which is against the ToS. If you want to risk a ban, go ahead and do that.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    If you wanted to run mutilate, you needed daggers. If you wanted to run HARP (later SHARP in LK) you wanted maces. If you wanted to run pve combat, you wanted swords. To be a good rogue able to play all your specs you needed:

    Slow mainhand dagger (pve+pvp)
    Slow offhand dagger + weapon chain. (pvp)
    Fast offhand dagger (pve)
    Slow mainhand mace (pvp)
    Fast offhand mace (pvp)
    Slow mainhand sword (pve)
    Fast offhand sword (pve)

    You can say "OH, but you didn't NEED daggers". Which shuts down a whole tree and several tricks you could do. No, you don't NEED all three of your trees... if you are a rogue...
    Its only shutting down options if those options are good. Yeah, before they nerfed rentaki's, that was solid in pvp... if you actually had one. And yeah some people like Neilyo played mut in pvp, but I don't consider it mandatory to collect weapons for a spec only a few extremely exceptional pvp rogues had success with that was also behind the entire expansion in pve.

    And really, if you were going to play mut in pvp, you don't need maces. Its not like you could switch specs after seeing their comp or something. You also had absolutely no need for a fast pve dagger for anything.

    My memory on HARP is different from yours in pve apparently, I remember it being more like 5% behind but you had more on demand burst for something like Shade of Akama's burn phase, at least after they buffed sub (before that with the non damage bonus hemo it was probably 25% behind). Either way, it was still ahead of mut pve.

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