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  1. #21
    Scarab Lord Atrea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    If you are running only LFR + 5 mans this far into the expansion, it is very likely that you simply do not care that much about PvE. In which case overcomplicating it is not worth it and having an all round setup, whilst not being optimal for the character, can still be the optimal choice for that player.

    Just saying, this thread is not theorycrafting for people that are pushing heroic raids server first. Its topic was 5 mans and LFR.
    You need to adapt your tips and tricks accordingly.
    Teaching people to be lazy is never good advice. Nor is it helpful pass along your own lazy way of doing things, with the assumption that just because you're comfortable being mediocre, this fellow will be.

    If you give a person a good fundamental understanding of what to use and when, without complicating things (and let's be fair, "Use X when you are tanking lots of adds or something that hits fast, and Y when you are not" is not complicated), then you are giving more valuable advice, something that a person can use to further their understanding.

    Give them good, solid advice -- and if they ask you to dumb it down a notch, then do so. Don't automatically assume he's too dumb/unmotivated/whatever to get it. Your assumptions are just that; assumptions. He could be a returning player, or perhaps using a Paladin as his alt -- you don't know, and you shouldn't just assume that he doesn't care.

    There are two ways of doing things, and if you are going to spend the time doing it, then you might as well choose the right way.
    I'm teaching him to fish, and you're giving him frozen supermarket fish sticks. If that's all you have to offer, then you should not give advice in these threads.
    Last edited by Atrea; 2013-02-04 at 11:30 PM.

  2. #22
    Fluffy Kitten Rivin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atrea View Post
    That's only if you have such an attack on a 5s repetition cycle, which is not the case for any encounter I'm aware of.
    Huh?

    Quote Originally Posted by Atrea View Post
    And even if it were the case, it still negates the majority of the value of haste, as its defensive ability lies in the uptime of SoR, and not in the HoPo generation.
    You shouldn't be losing any uptime as long as you're not sitting on it for very long (which you shouldn't be in order to avoid overcapping HP).

    Quote Originally Posted by Atrea View Post
    With high haste, your uptime of SoR is ~50-60%, whereas with a 0 haste build, you're looking at ~15-20%
    Under Bloodlust, you mean? The general consensus based on logs is that ShoR has around 40-50% uptime over the course of a standard fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Atrea View Post
    Without the mastery you would ordinarily have, you will block less, take more damage even with SoR up, and your WoG will not heal you for as much. If you don't use SoR on cooldown, you are doing a haste build wrong, and you are taking buttloads of damage you shouldn't be, with no way to compensate for it other than an increased auto-attack speed (which increases your SoI healing a bit.)
    As long as it's impossible to reach 100% uptime, and you're not overcapping HP, sitting on ShoR doesn't affect how haste works at all. The point of haste is to gain Holy Power quicker to increase ShoR's uptime. As long as you never overcap, you never impact your Holy Power generation and thus never affect the uptime of ShoR.

    The only difference between sitting on ShoR as haste versus sitting on it as mastery is that mastery gives you a slightly longer window to sit on it since it will take longer to overcap.

  3. #23
    Scarab Lord Atrea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivin View Post
    Huh?



    You shouldn't be losing any uptime as long as you're not sitting on it for very long (which you shouldn't be in order to avoid overcapping HP).



    Under Bloodlust, you mean? The general consensus based on logs is that ShoR has around 40-50% uptime over the course of a standard fight.



    As long as it's impossible to reach 100% uptime, and you're not overcapping HP, sitting on ShoR doesn't affect how haste works at all. The point of haste is to gain Holy Power quicker to increase ShoR's uptime. As long as you never overcap, you never impact your Holy Power generation and thus never affect the uptime of ShoR.

    The only difference between sitting on ShoR as haste versus sitting on it as mastery is that mastery gives you a slightly longer window to sit on it since it will take longer to overcap.
    No.

    You don't seem to understand how haste works as a defensive stat for Prot Paladins.

    Your SoR buff lasts 3 seconds, regardless of haste. Haste allows you to generate 3 HoPo faster, so you can have it up more often.
    Sitting on it defeats the purpose of being able to have it up more often.

    I don't see what is so hard about this to understand.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Atrea View Post
    There are two ways of doing things, and if you are going to spend the time doing it, then you might as well choose the right way.
    I'm teaching him to fish, and you're giving him frozen supermarket fish sticks. If that's all you have to offer, then you should not give advice in these threads.
    Rofl someone is telling Firefly that he shouldn't be giving advice in the Paladin forum.

    You must be new here.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-05 at 11:03 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Atrea View Post
    No.

    You don't seem to understand how haste works as a defensive stat for Prot Paladins.

    Your SoR buff lasts 3 seconds, regardless of haste. Haste allows you to generate 3 HoPo faster, so you can have it up more often.
    Sitting on it defeats the purpose of being able to have it up more often.

    I don't see what is so hard about this to understand.
    Probably all the other benefits of Haste you are either unaware of or have deliberately not included, including but not limited to:

    -Higher threat
    -Higher dps
    -Higher self heals through SoI
    -Higher self absorbs through SS

  5. #25
    Fluffy Kitten Rivin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atrea View Post
    No.

    You don't seem to understand how haste works as a defensive stat for Prot Paladins.

    Your SoR buff lasts 3 seconds, regardless of haste. Haste allows you to generate 3 HoPo faster, so you can have it up more often.
    Sitting on it defeats the purpose of being able to have it up more often.

    I don't see what is so hard about this to understand.
    And even if you sit on it for two GCDs you don't impact the uptime of it at all. You simply shift a period without ShoR forward two GCDs. Until you reach the point where delaying a ShoR for two GCDs would cause you to clip another ShoR (which can't happen anyway because the duration stacks), you won't impact its uptime by delaying it.

    The purpose of haste is to increase ShoR's uptime. Delaying ShoR doesn't impact its uptime. Therefore delaying ShoR doesn't affect the purpose of haste.

  6. #26
    Moderator Fhi's Avatar
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    Whether or not someone is a regular contributor here should not be a reason to discredit someone. Let's continue sticking to healthy debate and arguments.

    ~Fhi

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  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Fhi View Post
    Whether or not someone is a regular contributor here should not be a reason to discredit someone. Let's continue sticking to healthy debate and arguments.

    ~Fhi
    Sorry, was this directed at me?

    Apologies if it was inappropriate, I was more addressing the fact that he shouldn't be telling anyone "you should not post here", let alone a regular contributor who I've seen help dozens of players over the last few months.

    In no way was that me trying to discredit him or his confrontational position.

    Anyway back on topic, haste, uptime, delaying etc.

    Although I still have issues with the assumption that the entire purpose to stack haste is a higher uptime on SotR - although that is one of the more noticeable benefits.

  8. #28
    Fluffy Kitten Rivin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luciferiuz View Post
    Although I still have issues with the assumption that the entire purpose to stack haste is a higher uptime on SotR - although that is one of the more noticeable benefits.
    Not the entire purpose, of course, but probably the biggest one (and the only one that really matters for the discussion I'm having).

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Rivin View Post
    Not the entire purpose, of course, but probably the biggest one (and the only one that really matters for the discussion I'm having).
    I wasn't referring to your argument I was referring to this post:

    Quote Originally Posted by Atrea View Post
    You don't seem to understand how haste works as a defensive stat for Prot Paladins.

    Your SoR buff lasts 3 seconds, regardless of haste. Haste allows you to generate 3 HoPo faster, so you can have it up more often.
    Sitting on it defeats the purpose of being able to have it up more often.
    Which seems to imply that the entire reason you would be a haste paladin is to get SotR off as soon as possible in every situation and if you aren't doing so then you may as well not be haste. Which is what I took issue with.

    But since I seem to be getting in the middle of a discussion which was being carried out perfectly well without me, please continue

  10. #30
    Fluffy Kitten Rivin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luciferiuz View Post
    I wasn't referring to your argument I was referring to this post:

    Which seems to imply that the entire reason you would be a haste paladin is to get SotR off as soon as possible in every situation and if you aren't doing so then you may as well not be haste. Which is what I took issue with.

    But since I seem to be getting in the middle of a discussion which was being carried out perfectly well without me, please continue
    Specific quotes are so useful, aren't they? xP I mentioned uptime being haste's purpose a few times so I thought I should clarify when I saw your statement.

    And it's not like the discussion is closed. Feel free to jump in if you want. :P

  11. #31
    Moderator Fhi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivin View Post
    The purpose of haste is to increase ShoR's uptime. Delaying ShoR doesn't impact its uptime. Therefore delaying ShoR doesn't affect the purpose of haste.
    I think I need to reread the posts again, but I too am under the impression that a part of wanting haste is so we can hit Shield more often. If you delay Shield (normally you wouldn't hit Shield until you have 5 HoPo), then you risk going over 5 HoPo, -unless- such time occurs when both CS and judgement is on cooldown, in which case there is no risk of overcapping.

    In other words, shouldn't you want to hit Shield as often as possible as long as CS and Judgment is available - sitting on it would mean delaying CS/J and thus negate part of what haste is for?

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  12. #32
    Don't forget that you can hit ShoR a fraction of a second before CS, and thus not waste HoPo.

    You stack haste for higher HoPo regen, and a shorter time between possible ShoR casts. ShoR uptime is directly linked to your holy power generation.

    Without any haste:

    We generate 1 Holy Power with CS/HotR every 4.5 seconds. 1 / 4.5 = 0.22 HoPo/s
    We generate 1 Holy Power with J every 6.5 seconds (GCD causes it to get pushed back). 1 / 6.5 = 0.15 HoPo/s
    About every 20 seconds, Grand Crusader proccs from a CS hit, granting a HoPo from AS. 1 / 20 = 0.05 HoPo/sec

    This gives us a basic Holy Power gain of 0.42 per second. ShoR has a 3 sec duration, and is cast on average every 7.14 seconds (3 HoPo @ 0.42 HoPo/s => 3/0.42 = 7.14 s), giving us that (7.14 / 3)*100 = 42% uptime.

    As Haste directly increases our HoPo generation, it also increases the potential uptime of the ShoR buff and reduces the time between the casts. If I take my 18.8% haste, and add it in to the schematic above:;

    0.42*1.188 = 0.49896 holy power per second, which is equivalent to one ShoR cast every 6.01 seconds, or 49.896% uptime.

    Whether you choose to activate ShoR as soon as you can, or use it calculatingly (which is better btw), doesn't affect the uptime of the ability should there be any remaining duration left over. This is due to the new buff duration being added to the previous buff's remaining time. If you use ShoR once, and then cast it again 2 seconds later, you have a 4 second remaining ShoR buff.
    Last edited by Butler Log; 2013-02-05 at 12:54 AM.
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  13. #33
    Fluffy Kitten Rivin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fhi View Post
    I think I need to reread the posts again, but I too am under the impression that a part of wanting haste is so we can hit Shield more often. If you delay Shield (normally you wouldn't hit Shield until you have 5 HoPo), then you risk going over 5 HoPo, -unless- such time occurs when both CS and judgement is on cooldown, in which case there is no risk of overcapping.

    In other words, shouldn't you want to hit Shield as often as possible as long as CS and Judgment is available - sitting on it would mean delaying CS/J?
    My entire argument is operating under the caveat that you never waste Holy Power. Thus, you can sit on ShoR until 5 HP, instead of spending it as soon as you hit 3, without losing uptime. As soon as you start losing Holy Power due to overcapping, yes, you're losing uptime and devaluing haste.

    You have to think of ShoR uptime in chunks. Because it doesn't have 100% uptime, it will always have chunks of time where it is up and chunks of time where it is down. When you delay a ShoR, you move the chunks around, but as long as you don't waste any Holy Power the chunks themselves don't change, thus the actual uptime never changes.

    A visual may help, too.

    Using ShoR whenever available:

    {ShoR is up}--{ShoR is down}--{ShoR is up}--{ShoR is down}--(ShoR is up}--{ShoR is down}

    These are chunks of time. As long as you never waste Holy Power, the size of these chunks never changes. Now let's say you want to delay a ShoR briefly:

    {ShoR is up}--{ShoR is down}--{ShoR is down}--{ShoR is up}--{ShoR is up}--{ShoR is down}

    Notice that nothing changes in ShoR's actual uptime. You get a longer period without ShoR while you're delaying it, but the actual time ShoR is up never changes.

  14. #34
    Moderator Fhi's Avatar
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    Okay, that visual thing helps. And I think this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Rivin View Post
    My entire argument is operating under the caveat that you never waste Holy Power. Thus, you can sit on ShoR until 5 HP, instead of spending it as soon as you hit 3, without losing uptime. As soon as you start losing Holy Power due to overcapping, yes, you're losing uptime and devaluing haste.
    I almost never spend HP at 3 (I use Divine Protection until the first 5 HoPo), so I guess I didn't understand when you said "sit on". Since I am always sitting on until 5. Using it at 5 lets me time for big hits because, as you said, sitting. Only time I use at 3 is when I am anticipating a big hit very soon, like, say, Blade Lord stack.

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  15. #35
    Fluffy Kitten Rivin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fhi View Post
    I almost never spend HP at 3 (I use Divine Protection until the first 5 HoPo), so I guess I didn't understand when you said "sit on". Since I am always sitting on until 5. Using it at 5 lets me time for big hits because, as you said, sitting. Only time I use at 3 is when I am anticipating a big hit very soon, like, say, Blade Lord stack.
    Yeah, in that case you're always delaying it, so it's not going to have the same dynamic as with someone who's always using it ASAP.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Atrea View Post
    Teaching people to be lazy is never good advice. Nor is it helpful pass along your own lazy way of doing things, with the assumption that just because you're comfortable being mediocre, this fellow will be.

    If you give a person a good fundamental understanding of what to use and when, without complicating things (and let's be fair, "Use X when you are tanking lots of adds or something that hits fast, and Y when you are not" is not complicated), then you are giving more valuable advice, something that a person can use to further their understanding.

    Give them good, solid advice -- and if they ask you to dumb it down a notch, then do so. Don't automatically assume he's too dumb/unmotivated/whatever to get it. Your assumptions are just that; assumptions. He could be a returning player, or perhaps using a Paladin as his alt -- you don't know, and you shouldn't just assume that he doesn't care.

    There are two ways of doing things, and if you are going to spend the time doing it, then you might as well choose the right way.
    I'm teaching him to fish, and you're giving him frozen supermarket fish sticks. If that's all you have to offer, then you should not give advice in these threads.
    It is my opinion that someone that is doing 5hcs and LFR does not really have to care about swapping glyphs, since in the end, they won't matter.
    Basically, you are telling a college student to get those frozen supermarket fishsticks, or to go fish up his own food. I think he prefers the fish sticks. But hey, that is my opinion.

    That being said, I mentioned the pros and cons of the usual glyphs in my first post in this thread, so really don't understand what you are ranting about.

    and for someone doing solely 5 mans and LFR, alabaster shield will be one of the best glyphs.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-02-05 at 01:16 AM.
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  17. #37
    SoR = shield of the righteous?

    How can I have a 50-60% up-time when the buff only lasts 3 seconds?
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  18. #38
    50% uptime on a 3 sec buff means that 3 of 6 seconds it is present.

    ShotR requires 3 HoPo, which we get from CS, Judge, and GC AS.

    Using the "accepted" rotation of CS, J, X, CS, X, J, CS, X, X (which ignores/discounts any bonus HoPo from GC AS), you have 5 HoPo in that period (0-12.0 seconds). That means 1.66 ShotR casts in 12 seconds, or approx 40% uptime. Adding in haste means that your CD on these abilities is lower, and increases the amount of HoPo incoming, raising your ShotR uptime in the neighborhood of 45%. Factoring in GC AS, which is hard given its RNG nature, we can assume that further increases to ~50%.

    Additionally, using HA, you can chain cast ShotR to stack the buff for upwards of 20 seconds of godmode.
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  19. #39
    Okay, that makes sense

    I'll just change my glyph of consecration to Battle Healer and only use SoI.

    Most of it was a little over my head as I'm not a hardcore raider, etc...
    I just love to tank on my paladin and have fun doing it.

    Thanks for all the help!
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  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    50% uptime on a 3 sec buff means that 3 of 6 seconds it is present.

    ShotR requires 3 HoPo, which we get from CS, Judge, and GC AS.

    Using the "accepted" rotation of CS, J, X, CS, X, J, CS, X, X (which ignores/discounts any bonus HoPo from GC AS), you have 5 HoPo in that period (0-12.0 seconds). That means 1.66 ShotR casts in 12 seconds, or approx 40% uptime. Adding in haste means that your CD on these abilities is lower, and increases the amount of HoPo incoming, raising your ShotR uptime in the neighborhood of 45%. Factoring in GC AS, which is hard given its RNG nature, we can assume that further increases to ~50%.

    Additionally, using HA, you can chain cast ShotR to stack the buff for upwards of 20 seconds of godmode.
    Your holy power per second generation * 100 = theoretical uptime%

    so using your 5 HoPo in 12 seconds, you generate 0.4167 holy power per second, which is 41.67% uptime without Grand Crusader buggering it up.
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