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  1. #281
    Gotta keep working ourselves to the bone, executives and corporations are relying on our hard work to fill their pockets with cash.


  2. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by Shon237 View Post
    So yeah did Bill Gates or Warren Buffet work hard? Sure, but I think they could retire now or a long time ago and have the money they made and live off just that.
    Kinda off topic, kinda not. But funny you mention them as both of them were wealthy but neither of them were truly self made men by any stretch of the imagination. Sure, they managed to turn the silver spoons in their mouths that they were born with into platinum, but they weren't self made men.

    Bill Gates's father was a successful lawyer and his mother was on the board of directors for both First Interstate BancSystem and the United Way. His grandfather was a national bank president. Literally a millionaire from birth.

    Warren Buffer's father was a US State Representative for four terms.

    Both men had a better start in life than 95% of us will ever have at the end of our lives even if we busted our asses night and day, working ourselves to the bone.

    Neither of them were examples of self made men but of the Money begets Money situation we currently have and counter examples of the American dream and the current regressive tax structure that is ripe with cheats at the upper brackets.

  3. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by larrakeyah View Post
    "Hard times", no such thing. There's work for everyone but it takes some effort. The "poor" realise it's much better to resort to extortion. The poor are poor because they want to, expect no pity from me, i evade as much as i can.
    Always the victims fault, I know lots of people that are poor due to no choice of there own just getting hit with the curve balls in life that will screw you for life. Explain to me how it is the victims fault for getting a chronic disease that treatments for cost a fortune and those treatments will drive you straight to the poor house. Explain how that is the victims fault or how they wanted to be severely disabled by diseases such as ALS, MS or other horrible diseases that have no cure and can strike ANYONE.

    This me first and screw everyone else mentality that goes hand in hand with the fascism that is starting to regain strongholds in Europe again is shocking. And Europe is in many places repeating the disasters of the 1930s just replace jews with muslims and it is the same thing going on right now as took place in the 1st half of the 1930s in Europe.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-05 at 07:19 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinykong View Post
    Gotta keep working ourselves to the bone, executives and corporations are relying on our hard work to fill their pockets with cash.


    productivity is up a LOT in the last 30 years but wages for the bottom 99% have flatlined or declined in the same time.

  4. #284
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    Kinda off topic, kinda not. But funny you mention them as both of them were wealthy but neither of them were truly self made men by any stretch of the imagination. Sure, they managed to turn the silver spoons in their mouths that they were born with into platinum, but they weren't self made men.

    Bill Gates's father was a successful lawyer and his mother was on the board of directors for both First Interstate BancSystem and the United Way. His grandfather was a national bank president. Literally a millionaire from birth.

    Warren Buffer's father was a US State Representative for four terms.

    Both men had a better start in life than 95% of us will ever have at the end of our lives even if we busted our asses night and day, working ourselves to the bone.

    Neither of them were examples of self made men but of the Money begets Money situation we currently have and counter examples of the American dream and the current regressive tax structure that is ripe with cheats at the upper brackets.
    Yes, you are exactly right. Just like when Paul Ryan at the Republican Convention was boasting how he worked at fast foods his high school years and became successul. His grandpa and uncles I believe are very successful and had alot oppurtunites afforded to him that many do no living in poor conditions. Like the saying goes "another well to do person born on 2nd base thinking he hit a double".

  5. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shon237 View Post
    Yes, you are exactly right. Just like when Paul Ryan at the Republican Convention was boasting how he worked at fast foods his high school years and became successul. His grandpa and uncles I believe are very successful and had alot oppurtunites afforded to him that many do no living in poor conditions. Like the saying goes "another well to do person born on 2nd base thinking he hit a double".
    Or when they get help and are successful yet deny getting said help.

    Case in point, Craig T Nelson declaring on national televisions "I've been on foodstamps and welfare, did anyone help me out? No."

    It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning.

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  6. #286
    Merely a Setback Reeve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twotonsteak View Post
    1. All military basis on foreign soil should be closed. The US Military was designed to secure and protect our borders, not the borders of another nation half-way around the world.
    2. Getting rid of this ponzi scheme called Social Security would also be nice. (I actually checked. The way Social Security is currently handled is almost exactly how a Ponzi Scheme is run.)
    3. Secure our boarders. (I'd rather close them until we get "our house" in order, but I'm not unwilling to compromise.)
    4. Fully investigate our welfare system for fraud. (Again I'd rather ditch the system totally, but I'll compromise.)
    5. Shut down FEMA. It's underfunded and has been bailed out several times already.
    6. Remove all Federal influence from the Post Office and Amtrak.
    7. Stop giving aid to other countries until we, you know, can actually sustain our own spending.

    Every one of the above is a waste of money. In some cases (FEMA, Amtrak) the system is poorly run and totally insolvent and has been for a long time. In others (foreign military bases) the purpose is not served. Still others (Social Security) are out-right illegal based on our laws.

    Every one of those suggestions would save a LOT of money.
    Only your first two suggestions would save a lot of money.

    The military bases one I disagree with. There's a very good reason for the US to have military presence around the world that is good for the US, and for the world.

    The social security one I also disagree with, but it doesn't matter because Congress will NEVER vote to get rid of Social Security, unless we're about to default on loans without it. Reforming social security by raising the retirement age, or with means testing is a bit more reasonable and far more likely.

    Having immigrants in the US to do the types of labor intensive jobs most Americans don't want to do is a net positive on our economy, not a net drain, especially when many of the illegals are paying taxes.

    Sure you can investigate welfare for fraud. You might find a couple million in there. Chump change.

    FEMA serves an important purpose in our government. If you don't believe that, look at how much people cry out for FEMA aid after any disaster.

    The Postal Service has been operating just fine with federal supervision, except for the one stupid decision under Bush Jr. to force them to accrue pension liabilities for all their employees immediately. They'll be fine again when that's done. AmTrak does appear to be pretty messed up to me, but I don't think the solution to that is to defederalize it. It's to install new management, do a comprehensive study to determine where lines would be most used, and improve the way it's run.

    The aid to other countries is a pretty small part of our budget and helps secure our interests abroad. Foreign policy needs both carrots and a a stick. The military is the stick, foreign aid is the carrot.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-05 at 07:26 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Twotonsteak View Post
    I'd just like to point out that the Middle-Class (or wealthy, according to Obama's odd sense of math) also pay those taxes. They also pay more in Federal Income Taxes.

    I can assure you that no matter how you twist and turn it. The answer will ALWAYS be that the more money you make the more taxes you pay.
    I never suggested that the wealthy didn't pay those taxes. Those taxes are just a much higher portion of a poor person's disposable income than they are for a wealthy person.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-05 at 07:27 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinykong View Post
    Just finished preparing my taxes last night, and I owed (no joke) $.43 of tax. Rounded that down to zero, and for the first time in my adult life, I won the game. I didn't give the government an interest free loan for a year, and they wound up picking up my tab, however small it may be.
    That's kinda awesome. Best possible result. I'm probably going to owe them around $80 as usual.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-05 at 07:32 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    Kinda off topic, kinda not. But funny you mention them as both of them were wealthy but neither of them were truly self made men by any stretch of the imagination. Sure, they managed to turn the silver spoons in their mouths that they were born with into platinum, but they weren't self made men.

    Bill Gates's father was a successful lawyer and his mother was on the board of directors for both First Interstate BancSystem and the United Way. His grandfather was a national bank president. Literally a millionaire from birth.

    Warren Buffer's father was a US State Representative for four terms.

    Both men had a better start in life than 95% of us will ever have at the end of our lives even if we busted our asses night and day, working ourselves to the bone.

    Neither of them were examples of self made men but of the Money begets Money situation we currently have and counter examples of the American dream and the current regressive tax structure that is ripe with cheats at the upper brackets.
    My grandfather is a self-made man. He was born to a poor family in a poor neighborhood with 5 siblings, an absentee father, and a drunkard mother. He went on to graduate high school, which was not that common in his neighborhood, joined the Navy, fought in the Korean War, and went to college on the GI Bill. Got himself a job in chemical sales, eventually opened up his own chemical company and retired with a few million dollars, which he was able to invest well.

    He worked his ass off to get where he did, but even he will tell you that he didn't get there without a lot of luck.

    I consider myself extremely lucky to have been brought up by good parents who themselves had a middle class/upper middle class upbringing. I've benefited in my own knowledge/education from their knowledge/education. I think it was a lot easier to learn when I had a college educated father who wasn't afraid to answer any of my questions and help me work through the answers. I've also benefited by having a mother who knows business and has taught me how to present myself in the business community. She continues to advise me well to this day.
    Last edited by Reeve; 2013-02-05 at 07:36 PM.
    'Twas a cutlass swipe or an ounce of lead
    Or a yawing hole in a battered head
    And the scuppers clogged with rotting red
    And there they lay I damn me eyes
    All lookouts clapped on Paradise
    All souls bound just contrarywise, yo ho ho and a bottle of rum!

  7. #287
    Whenever I think of the "self made" Donald Trump I get a good chuckle...

  8. #288
    The Undying Wildtree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vuljatar View Post
    This, basically.

    The government is an endlessly hungry black hole of money. They steal from everyone, every single one of your dollars is taxed when you earn it, when you save it, when you spend it, when you give it away, and even when you die. They steal a higher percentage from more successful people because they know that idiots will say things like "Nobody needs as much money as those people make!", without a thought for the concept that they earned it, so it is theirs or the fact that the government doesn't need that money either. And in spite of all of that, the government STILL has to print more fiat currency every single year (further devaluing the money in our pockets) to keep up with it's appalling spending.

    The level of waste is truly unbelievable, between rampant military spending in wars that don't benefit U.S. citizens in any way, bailouts to keep failed companies alive and prevent new ones from rising, subsidies to select businesses (the ones that own enough of the politicians) without any possible justification, and free money for people too lazy to work. And yet the space program--something of critical importance to the future of the entire human race--is woefully underfunded.

    We could cut the national budget in half and nothing of value would be lost.
    1. Taxes aren't stolen from you. They are your contribution to the infrastructure of the country. The USA is, against it's citizen's belief even rather a tax paradise, compared to other countries. And good luck finding a country that gives you all things you benefit from for free.. be prepared to crawl through dirt piles the moment you leave the house. Because all the roads, all the sidewalks are built with what? Oh yeah... Tax money... Just to start somewhere..

    2. military spending is insane... on that I agree..

    3. bailouts.. No, they were just fine... These bailouts have not been given to provide those companies, but to protect US the people from the crash of the effected companies. All bailouts have been bound to companies where there would have been a huge loss of jobs, or direct loss of money the people had sitting in those companies. The government saved our ass with bailing them out.

    4. The countries unemployment rate is at right around 8%... That is nowhere near any number that would indicate that there's a waste of money on people who don't want to work. That statement is a bullshit statement which originates from right wing radicals like Limbaugh and consorts. The sort of people that do more harm and damage to the country than anyone else. Following their hate speeches is rather incredibly stupid, because even most republican politicians (who usually have a problem with grasping the principle of the term society stems from social) won't agree with them.

  9. #289
    Quote Originally Posted by Wildtree View Post
    Taxes aren't stolen from you.
    Depending on your interpretation of the Constitution, some people believe wages were never intended to be taxed.

  10. #290
    Merely a Setback Reeve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinykong View Post
    Depending on your interpretation of the Constitution, some people believe wages were never intended to be taxed.
    Until we amended the constitution to make sure they were. 16th!
    'Twas a cutlass swipe or an ounce of lead
    Or a yawing hole in a battered head
    And the scuppers clogged with rotting red
    And there they lay I damn me eyes
    All lookouts clapped on Paradise
    All souls bound just contrarywise, yo ho ho and a bottle of rum!

  11. #291
    The Undying Wildtree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reeve View Post
    The military bases one I disagree with. There's a very good reason for the US to have military presence around the world that is good for the US, and for the world
    Reeve, I would leave that decision more to the countries in question tho.
    I know that the US Military presence around the globe is a huge part of the rather bad reputation. There are bases that don't make no sense anymore, on any aspect.
    Germany does not need multiple US Air Bases, nor is there a need to have a permanent troop size of 74.000 US Troops stationed there. I mean, picture the expenses to maintain those. All the people and equipment aren't exactly cheap.
    5000 would do the job just fine, and one air base for Nato purposes is sufficient. The European countries, including Germany itself do have enough military strength and facilities to protect their borders just fine, and in case of any conflict, troops can easily be moved to Germany. The USA has it's dedicated area at Germany's biggest Airport, for their military use, \and the entire Airport is set to be turned into a military airbase within hours. Arrangements are long in place ever since the cold war.

  12. #292
    Merely a Setback Reeve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildtree View Post
    Reeve, I would leave that decision more to the countries in question tho.
    I know that the US Military presence around the globe is a huge part of the rather bad reputation. There are bases that don't make no sense anymore, on any aspect.
    Germany does not need multiple US Air Bases, nor is there a need to have a permanent troop size of 74.000 US Troops stationed there. I mean, picture the expenses to maintain those. All the people and equipment aren't exactly cheap.
    5000 would do the job just fine, and one air base for Nato purposes is sufficient. The European countries, including Germany itself do have enough military strength and facilities to protect their borders just fine, and in case of any conflict, troops can easily be moved to Germany. The USA has it's dedicated area at Germany's biggest Airport, for their military use, \and the entire Airport is set to be turned into a military airbase within hours. Arrangements are long in place ever since the cold war.
    Absolutely the countries involved should have a say, and they do. We aren't in military bases in those countries against the will of the people in those countries, with the exception of those places we recently invaded. As for Germany, I think we're there simply as a jumping off point for other conflicts. I'm pretty sure we aren't there strategically in case the Russians decide to invade again. Either way, I'd rather leave the decisions on where to keep our bases to the Pentagon, who has a much better grasp of the strategic landscape than I do.
    'Twas a cutlass swipe or an ounce of lead
    Or a yawing hole in a battered head
    And the scuppers clogged with rotting red
    And there they lay I damn me eyes
    All lookouts clapped on Paradise
    All souls bound just contrarywise, yo ho ho and a bottle of rum!

  13. #293
    Quote Originally Posted by Reeve View Post
    Until we amended the constitution to make sure they were. 16th!
    I was referring to the 16th amendment. Income and wages haven't always been the same thing, and (this is borderline conspiracy theory, so tread lightly) some people feel that the IRS doesn't have the authority to tax wages (money earned while in the employ of another person) but only income (money earned as a profit from a business.)

  14. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinykong View Post
    Depending on your interpretation of the Constitution, some people believe wages were never intended to be taxed.
    I am sorry, those are dreamers.. The constitution doesn't provide any way how a country can function without taxes?
    The people with such believe need to look at the times applicable for the constitution.. At that time "taxes" meant, that everyone had to surrender a percentage of their harvest etc. to the crown. And there was usually little return, other than being allowed to live on the Kings land. Land owners been the aristocrats. Not the common man. That's why some things are in the constitution.
    The need to use wealth from all citizen accordingly to create a country, and to build an infrastructure still exists in free countries as well.
    No one would give away any money at all, if it was based on free will. A country cannot be built from donations. Not gonna happen.

  15. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinykong View Post
    I was referring to the 16th amendment. Income and wages haven't always been the same thing, and (this is borderline conspiracy theory, so tread lightly) some people feel that the IRS doesn't have the authority to tax wages (money earned while in the employ of another person) but only income (money earned as a profit from a business.)
    Well that's not one I'd heard before. Has it been challenged and taken to the Supreme Court before? That would clarify it pretty simply I'd think. BRB, checking.

    Edit: On first blush, Bowers v. Kerbaugh Empire Co. says:

    After full consideration, this court declared that income may be defined as gain derived from capital, from labor, or from both combined, including profit gained through sale or conversion of capital.
    Also:

    In Commissioner v. Glenshaw Glass Co., 348 U.S. 426 (1955), the Supreme Court laid out what has become the modern understanding of what constitutes 'gross income' to which the Sixteenth Amendment applies, declaring that income taxes could be levied on "accessions to wealth, clearly realized, and over which the taxpayers have complete dominion." Under this definition, any increase in wealth — whether through wages, benefits, bonuses, sale of stock or other property at a profit, bets won, lucky finds, awards of punitive damages in a lawsuit, qui tam actions — are all within the definition of income, unless the Congress makes a specific exemption, as it has for items such as life insurance proceeds received by reason of the death of the insured party,[31] gifts, bequests, devises and inheritances,[32] and certain scholarships.[33]
    Last edited by Reeve; 2013-02-05 at 07:59 PM.
    'Twas a cutlass swipe or an ounce of lead
    Or a yawing hole in a battered head
    And the scuppers clogged with rotting red
    And there they lay I damn me eyes
    All lookouts clapped on Paradise
    All souls bound just contrarywise, yo ho ho and a bottle of rum!

  16. #296
    Quote Originally Posted by Wildtree View Post
    I am sorry, those are dreamers.. The constitution doesn't provide any way how a country can function without taxes?
    The people with such believe need to look at the times applicable for the constitution.. At that time "taxes" meant, that everyone had to surrender a percentage of their harvest etc. to the crown. And there was usually little return, other than being allowed to live on the Kings land. Land owners been the aristocrats. Not the common man. That's why some things are in the constitution.
    The need to use wealth from all citizen accordingly to create a country, and to build an infrastructure still exists in free countries as well.
    No one would give away any money at all, if it was based on free will. A country cannot be built from donations. Not gonna happen.
    I never said the government was supposed to function without taxes, I said that some people feel wages were not intended to be taxed, but only business profits and commerce (sales tax, etc.)

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-05 at 07:59 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeve View Post
    Well that's not one I'd heard before. Has it been challenged and taken to the Supreme Court before? That would clarify it pretty simply I'd think. BRB, checking.
    I seriously doubt it has been. I recall hearing the opinion on a documentary/TV show about taxes, whether or not it has any real validity I don't know.

  17. #297
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinykong View Post
    I never said the government was supposed to function without taxes, I said that some people feel wages were not intended to be taxed, but only business profits and commerce (sales tax, etc.)

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-05 at 07:59 PM ----------



    I seriously doubt it has been. I recall hearing the opinion on a documentary/TV show about taxes, whether or not it has any real validity I don't know.
    Yeah, check above. That's only 2 cases, but it's very firmly established in those and more cases that incomes applies to wages and salaries as well.
    'Twas a cutlass swipe or an ounce of lead
    Or a yawing hole in a battered head
    And the scuppers clogged with rotting red
    And there they lay I damn me eyes
    All lookouts clapped on Paradise
    All souls bound just contrarywise, yo ho ho and a bottle of rum!

  18. #298
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinykong View Post
    Depending on your interpretation of the Constitution, some people believe wages were never intended to be taxed.
    The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

    The 16th Amendment's pretty darned clear. It's not dependent on "interpretation"; it explicitly states that Congress can tax incomes.

    As for the legitimacy of Amendments to begin with, Article 5 of the Constitution is what explicitly allows for it.

    The only people arguing that the Constitution doesn't allow for income taxes are grossly ignorant as to what the Constitution actually says, and are attacking that document, not defending it.


  19. #299
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

    The 16th Amendment's pretty darned clear. It's not dependent on "interpretation"; it explicitly states that Congress can tax incomes.

    As for the legitimacy of Amendments to begin with, Article 5 of the Constitution is what explicitly allows for it.

    The only people arguing that the Constitution doesn't allow for income taxes are grossly ignorant as to what the Constitution actually says, and are attacking that document, not defending it.
    His issue with it is the definition of income (or rather the issue of the detractors he's referring to), but that has been clarified many times by federal courts and the Supreme Court.
    'Twas a cutlass swipe or an ounce of lead
    Or a yawing hole in a battered head
    And the scuppers clogged with rotting red
    And there they lay I damn me eyes
    All lookouts clapped on Paradise
    All souls bound just contrarywise, yo ho ho and a bottle of rum!

  20. #300
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinykong View Post
    I was referring to the 16th amendment. Income and wages haven't always been the same thing, and (this is borderline conspiracy theory, so tread lightly) some people feel that the IRS doesn't have the authority to tax wages (money earned while in the employ of another person) but only income (money earned as a profit from a business.)
    "From whatever source derived".

    Wages are clearly defined as "income" under tax law. Those people simply do not understand the basic terminology they're arguing about. And it doesn't matter anyway, since the only people who get to decide what the Constitution really means is the Supreme Court, and they've been clear about the 16th.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-05 at 03:04 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeve View Post
    His issue with it is the definition of income (or rather the issue of the detractors he's referring to), but that has been clarified many times by federal courts and the Supreme Court.
    Yeah, that got posted as I was writing my response, hence this addendum


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