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  1. #21
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nagassh View Post
    You didn't but for the same reason it would be a terrible idea to remove demonology for a tank spec, I imagine it would be dangerous ground to remove a rogue spec and tell the section of the rogue community that like playing it to deal with it, now it's a ranged spec, would rub plenty the wrong way... If people see other people getting something they'll clamor for "fairness". If Warlocks cease to be a pure and get given a second role, it's not far fetched to assume the other pures might want similar treatment. After that, you've got around half the classes in the game with a 4th spec, that's enough ground for some people to be demanding the same fair treatment for their own. God knows there are enough people asking for a 4th spec before druids even got theirs, all adding more 4th specs does is give them some ground to stand on.
    1) I still am not totally convinced getting rid of one of the warlock specs for a tank spec is that terrible of an idea, despite a lot of people's possible outcries. Not an idea I'd be pushing for though. But that's because I feel the three specs are already enough of a burden. To put it another (succinct) way, the list I have of what I think needs to be fixed for warlock DPS is (a lot) longer than similar lists for other classes I play. Fixing two specs is much easier than three, and having to make sure they all keep each other mediocre.

    2) As you put it yourself, a problem with rogues isn't even the fact that there's no non-melee-DPS role, it's the fact that there are three melee DPS roles and not enough differentiation. Nuking one of the specs, and having to work two, distinct, melee specs and a ranged spec might be the way to go (I don't play a rogue to know if this example is actually good, it might be terrible, but for sure this change would sure interest me).

    Will people bitch? Yes, but people are quitting the rogue class in droves right now regardless - only coming back if the class is OP which to be frank is shit design.

    3) Same argument for your "slippery slope 4th spec" as I just gave above. People can deal with it, just like they dealt with 4 druid specs. People won't quit the game because other classes have more roles/specs, people will quit the game if their class sucks or doesn't have enough options rather.

    ---

    Fact of the matter is, you can't look at slippery slopes and use that as an excuse to not change things that are clearly broken, or not implement things that would be awesome. If "others will complain" or "inch gives way to a mile" was used for everything that was done in WoW, we'd never fucking have nice things.

    Just look at two things: Are things better before? Or will they be better after the proposed changes?

  2. #22
    mfw I can tank heroic dungeons, just need a plate friend with me to queue as tank, but he goes dps.

    Most healers yell at me and telling my friend to tank, we votekick them and get a healer whos up for something new for a change.

  3. #23
    warlocks should never be tanks, our pets however...

  4. #24
    The Lightbringer Kouki's Avatar
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    They keep overloading the class with tank skills, that the tank classes qq and bitch about so they end up nerfed.

    So im sitting here on my lock with 3 action bars 2 almost all tank skills and all useless.
    -Scrapbot stole my sig-

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Kouki View Post
    They keep overloading the class with tank skills, that the tank classes qq and bitch about so they end up nerfed.

    So im sitting here on my lock with 3 action bars 2 almost all tank skills and all useless.
    Interesting. Let's see:

    Twilight Ward, Dark Bargain, Unending Resolve, Healthstone, Dark Regeneration, Mortal Coil, Drain Life, Curse of Weakness (8 tanking skills)
    Unstable Affliction, Corruption, Agony, Haunt, Malefic Grasp / Drain Soul, Dark Soul, Curse of the Elements (7 dps skills)

    O.O

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by maldias View Post
    warlocks should never be tanks, our pets however...
    my warlock tanked LFR sha of fear last monday because the "real tank" was derping and trying to stand behind the boss instead of inside the circle. it was easy and awesome. DA on, keep fury ward up, use healthstones from time to time, death coils as well, profit. warlocks should be tanks
    Last edited by checking facts; 2013-02-06 at 11:49 AM.
    Warlorcs of Draenorc made me quit. You can't have my stuff.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by deviantcultist View Post
    I don't care if its a tank but I want to play a fully operational Warlock Demon Hunter melee themed spec.
    This is another reason why not to have a Warlock tank spec - it will lead to the demand of a 5th 'melee DPS' spec. At this point you're 2/3 of the way to a new class. Just make it a new class, and you wont have another 9 classes crying about being left out from having 4 or 5 specs.

    Quote Originally Posted by checking facts View Post
    my warlock tanked LFR sha of fear last monday because the "real tank" was derping and trying to stand behind the boss instead of inside the circle. it was easy and awesome. DA on, keep fury ward up, use healthstones from time to time, death coils as well, profit. warlocks should be tanks
    LFR isn't a barometer of anything.

  8. #28
    If Warlocks can tank, I can only see woes in the future for other utility. Not to mention I rolled this class as a pure because that's what I wanted.

    I do not want tanking to be an option for my warlock. It would literally make me want to quit the game.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    LFR isn't a barometer of anything.
    no, but it's a pretty good funometer
    Warlorcs of Draenorc made me quit. You can't have my stuff.

  10. #30
    Speaking as someone who used to tank Vek'lor and Leo (demon phase) back in the day, Lock tanking in MoP would be nice for a gimmick fight but nothing more than that. Although I thought that the general trend was to move away from these types of things.

  11. #31
    IF this were to be usuable, I would suggest something similar to the Guardian conversion passive, where Intellect converts to SP, parry and dodge, with something akin to the old Glyph of Dark Apotheosis as a stance. It would utilize the Demo tree, but each Demon would give you a different tanking CD, for example:

    Imp: Causes all your spells to give Spell Vulnerability;
    Voidwalker: Each time you heal, you gain an absorb for 20% of the damage;
    Succubus: your spells apply a melee damage debuff;
    Felguard: each time you damage another target, your Felguard has a chance to strike with both hands for 30% of their weapon damage;
    Felhunter: Your spells cause Aura Rupture, dealing 30% of the damage done over the next 6 seconds as a magical bleed effect.

    In addition, I would probably expect this to be done as a stance that you can switch on or off, [i]but only as a Demonology Lock.

  12. #32
    i'd like to split demonology in two different specialization likewise druid guardian/feral: demonology for caster/demon spell abilities, and demon "dark aphoteosis" tank melee/caster with conversion passive of SP.

    This make happy who want to tank really in demon form at high level, and who want to cast spell in caster and demon form

  13. #33
    Stood in the Fire Queen Ultima's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tenangrychickens View Post
    Imp: Causes all your spells to give Spell Vulnerability;
    Voidwalker: Each time you heal, you gain an absorb for 20% of the damage;
    Succubus: your spells apply a melee damage debuff;
    Felguard: each time you damage another target, your Felguard has a chance to strike with both hands for 30% of their weapon damage;
    Felhunter: Your spells cause Aura Rupture, dealing 30% of the damage done over the next 6 seconds as a magical bleed effect.

    In addition, I would probably expect this to be done as a stance that you can switch on or off, [i]but only as a Demonology Lock.
    Only the voidwalker is a relevant tanking CD, the rest are DPS CDs (sans Succubus, which provides a debuff that tanks currently apply in rotation) which could be an interesting addition to current warlocks (similar to old Demon Soul) but is a different discussion. And no, DPS and threat are not a concern for current tanks, resources and mitigation are. Not to mention that the fact that the guardian/feral split was specifically designed so that one spec would not have access to two fully-functional roles.

    I agree with Jessicka, there's more room to make a new class than to fit this into an existing class, and like I said earlier, Demon Hunters are a valid and interesting idea for a new class (especially when the Legion still exists as antagonists).

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Just make it a new class, and you wont have another 9 classes crying about being left out from having 4 or 5 specs.
    That would be a funny sight. Having a new Demon Hunter class that will drop Warlock popularity below 5%. Back to square one a.k.a. Cataclysm expansion.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by deviantcultist View Post
    That would be a funny sight. Having a new Demon Hunter class that will drop Warlock popularity below 5%. Back to square one a.k.a. Cataclysm expansion.
    What makes you think people playing a ranged caster class would suddenly want to shift to melee? And if they did, hadn't they already moved over to Death Knights?

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    What makes you think people playing a ranged caster class would suddenly want to shift to melee? And if they did, hadn't they already moved over to Death Knights?
    well, I'm a warlock solely for the demonic motif. if I were one of those "gameplay is all that matters" players, I'd probably be a death knight
    Warlorcs of Draenorc made me quit. You can't have my stuff.

  17. #37
    The Lightbringer Raugnaut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seezer View Post
    I'll be a millionaire before locks can be fully functional raid tanks. And I'm not going to be a millionaire anytime soon.
    Warlocks WERE fully functional raid tanks on the beta. Some warlock was posting actual logs of him tanking with multiple other tanks in the beta raids, and the damage taken numbers were the same between the 2, except when he paired up with a guardian which took significantly less damage then all other tanks and was also nerfed a bit before the end. The only reason why Warlocks ARENT tanking now was because A) They removed the warlock's crit-proofing, B) They nerfed the amount of damage reduced via mastery by a good 80%, and C) they prevented the warlock's taunt from working on bosses. Had they have NOT nerfed warlocks from that point in the beta to now, Warlcoks would be fully functional raid tanks.

    As for OP, on the late beta, Warlocks WERE fully fleged functional tanks, with a rotation and active mitigation playstyle, where they converted resources into damage reduction. Warlocks were essentially the soak tank that Druids used to be.
    Anyone ever notice how the sun seems to shine silverish now? Didn't it used to shine goldish? PM me if you've noticed this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moounter View Post
    I think your problem is a lack of intellect.

  18. #38
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    This is another reason why not to have a Warlock tank spec - it will lead to the demand of a 5th 'melee DPS' spec. At this point you're 2/3 of the way to a new class. Just make it a new class, and you wont have another 9 classes crying about being left out from having 4 or 5 specs.
    Why would it? If anything, there is a lack of classes that can switch between ranged and tanking - right now, you are sitting at one. There's no lack (5) of classes that can shift between melee and tanking. Just like healers are not required to have a ranged DPS spec, so tanks are not required to have a melee DPS spec.

    (fun fact - all but one spec of healer have a melee DPS spec, but 2 healers lack caster DPS specs)

    And I'd say class overload is a bigger problem than spec overload.
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-02-07 at 12:34 AM.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Why would it? If anything, there is a lack of classes that can switch between ranged and tanking - right now, you are sitting at one. There's no lack (5) of classes that can shift between melee and tanking. Just like healers are not required to have a ranged DPS spec, so tanks are not required to have a melee DPS spec.

    (fun fact - all but one spec of healer have a melee DPS spec, but 2 healers lack caster DPS specs)

    And I'd say class overload is a bigger problem than spec overload.
    I disagree, I think that classes are defined in fewer specs. If you saturate them with the specs, they risk loosing definition entirely.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    Just look at two things: Are things better before? Or will they be better after the proposed changes?
    That seems like an impossible question to answer.

    Did the change carry the heaps of gear and balance ramifications I'd expect? If so, then they're better now - everything works, more or less.
    Did the changes manage to pass without any nasty ramifications and work in a tank spec with little to no problems? Then I'm pretty neutral, I have no idea how the hypothetical tanking spec would play, but I don't relish the idea of being asked to tank, which WOULD eventually come about, and I'd have a hard time saying no to my guild, because I love them.

    All in all, better the known evil than the unknown. Warlocks certainly have some problems, possibly more than other classes - but surely you can agree they're very functional in pve right now, considering a lot of the problems are a direct result of this "revamp", I don't think adding such a hugely experimental spec is going to fix any of that.


    Quote Originally Posted by deviantcultist View Post
    That would be a funny sight. Having a new Demon Hunter class that will drop Warlock popularity below 5%. Back to square one a.k.a. Cataclysm expansion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    What makes you think people playing a ranged caster class would suddenly want to shift to melee? And if they did, hadn't they already moved over to Death Knights?
    I never get this argument. If people are going to re-roll from a warlock, let them - they're obviously not playing what they want. It's the same argument as not letting 10mans be a viable option, because otherwise people who WANT to do 10mans won't be forced to do 25man because 10man isn't "real" raiding. How is that the better solution? Isn't it better to let the people who, apparently, want to play a melee / tank class play that (though I doubt that many exist, it baffles the mind to imagine someone has stuck with a dps caster when they want to play a melee dps / tank)?

    If you don't want to play a warlock, fine - that's no excuse for restricting new content, otherwise DKs should never have been added because some people rolled a Warlock since it was the closest thing to a necromancer, Monks shouldn't have been added since some people rolled a rogue because it was the most ninja-esque of classes at the time, and blood elves shouldn't have been added because some people rolled Nelf since it was the only elf available at the time.

    Not adding something for the sole reason it will give people what they want instead of making them settle for second best, is a stupid argument.

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