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  1. #1

    Changes that need to happen to make MM Playable

    I decided to try out playing Marksman to really see what is wrong with the spec and possibly offer some input to Blizzard about what sort of changes need to happen to make it better.

    First off, It's DPS isn't as bad as people make it out to be. It is lower than BM and SV but it certainly isn't unplayable. Being mainly Physical damage it also has the benefit of scaling better with weapon damage. Towards the end of my testing I started noticing that you do have to pay close attention to your Trinket ICDs, Scope and Synapse Springs in order to time it with AmoC, Rapid Fire and Stampede. I was seeing quite a significant damage increase when I manged to do this well.

    If you want to see logs from any of the fights (LFR Full Clear) as Marksman check the WoL Rank section of my WoW-Heroes. Do not expect flawless gameplay. This was my first time playing Marksman since 4.2 and I'm not even 100% sure if I was doing everything correctly.

    My Findings:

    We have a pool of 100 Focus, Aimed shot costs 50 Focus. This made perfect sense back in Cataclysm where the opening rotation was Aimed > Steady > Steady with nothing else. Now during our 100-80% burn phase you WILL focus cap a lot, there is no way around it with all our new abilities like AmoC costing 60 Focus, Glaive Toss/Barrage costing 15/30 Focus and Dire Beast/Fervor restoring Focus. with Serpent Sting damage also receiving a buff not long ago we now have to keep that up during the opening which costs 45 Focus from Chimera Shot.

    All these odd numbers and needing to double cast Steady Shot and Aimed Shot casting 50% of our Focus Pool will inevitably lead to a lot of Focus Capping. To Fix this Aimed Shot cost should be lowered to 40 (from 50), Chimera shot cost should be lowered to 40 (from 45) and the spec should be given a Passive that makes our maximum focus 120 (like BM has).

    The opening part was really the only part where the rotation was uncomfortable and I felt needed a change. While the lower Focus costs and increased Focus pool will help our damage slightly it still won't quite be enough to make it competitive again. An easy was to increase MM Damage without making burst over the top through Aimed/Chimera shot or effecting other specs would be to increase Steady Shot damage. Not sure on a number and it would likely be something that would need proper testing on Blizzard's side to find out a good number to increase it by.

  2. #2
    Hello,
    We almost feel the same way but here are my thoughts
    • Reduce focus cost for chimera shot by 10 or increase its damage output.
    • Aimed Shot to have a 100% crit chance during CA phase.
    • Add a multi-shot proc. - whenever your multi-shot crits, you'll receive an MS proc which increases multi-shot crit rate by 100% for 8sec.

  3. #3
    I clicked on this topic expecting some random person asking for outrageous buffs, a glyph that provides godmode and a button that instantly kills all targets within 70 yards of the Hunter. I was very wrong, very constructive topic that addresses my number one complaint about Marksmanship as well.

    The high focus cost especially on Aimed Shot makes it very difficult to pull off the rotation correctly during the careful aim phase without capping on focus. This becomes a much bigger problem with Rapid Fire and other focus increasing effects or abilities active. This alone would be more of a pet peeve if it wasn't for Murder of Crows costing (a ridiculous) 60 focus along with us having other smaller shots or abilities we need to fire off. The careful aim phase, the phase where we are supposed to shine and where a large part of the spec's flavor comes from is one awkward mess that's hard to deal with. And this is just gameplay, but our damage isn't in line yet either.

    In terms of damage I think Aimed Shot, Chimera Shot and other abilities are dealing the proper numbers. A very, very minor Aimed Shot buff would be welcome but I don't think it's really needed (don't underestimate piercing shots!). A more elegant solution would be to just decrease the focus cost on Aimed Shot, Chimera Shot and Murder of Crows a little. I'm all for a 120 base focus pool but that's not going to add much. It's just convenient.

    And I will complain about the following until it's changed. Kill Shot resetting it's cooldown is clunky. A flat out double damage on Kill Shot without it resetting would possibly be too overpowered in PvP. How about it dealing about 60% more damage and having an 8 second cooldown?
    Last edited by Bovan; 2013-02-05 at 11:47 AM.

  4. #4
    I registered just so I could answer this thread.

    I play MM. I know it's underpowered right now, but I love the idea of Marskmanship, it appeals to me.

    If I were to "fix" the spec, I'd consider some (but not all at once) of the following suggestions:

    - Like said before by others in this thread: reduce Focus cost of Aimed Shot and Chimera Shot. Make them both cost 40 focus.

    - Change Kill Shot like Bovan suggested: no Cooldown reseting if enemy survives anymore (it often fails to reset anyway); 60% increased damage.

    - Make Master Marksman Proc more often; Maybe give it 70% chance (up from 50%), so we can throw instant Aimed Shots more frequently.

    - Give back some of its lost signature abilities, or create a new one. A lot of former Marksmanship-only abilities have been made baseline: Readiness; Marked for Death (became a Glyph, will turn into baseline next patch); Silencing Shot (became talent); (We also lost 2% heal from baseline Chimera Shot, now needing a Glyph to get it back). Such small improvements lost could make MM more appealing.

  5. #5
    The Patient Kluddesu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post

    And I will complain about the following until it's changed. Kill Shot resetting it's cooldown is clunky. A flat out double damage on Kill Shot without it resetting would possibly be too overpowered in PvP. How about it dealing about 60% more damage and having an 8 second cooldown?
    Or make this ability subject simillar to the Colossus smash PvP/PvE change, Dealing less damage on players/can't crit on players/etc
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  6. #6
    Kill shot is another huge problem around all specs. There is obviously the issue with every class where it doesn't active the ability for a second after hitting 20% because of some issue with the game's engine. But there's also the issue with Kill Shot where it doesn't reset if the boss is under 3-4%. It's also a stupid mechanic and you can rarely do double Kill Shots because it takes a second to reset.

    The reason I feel 120 Focus could help is because it would make it easier to avoid focus capping. However extra reductions on high costing abilities would essentially do the same thing and not require a new spell be put in the game.

    @erbs101: I don't feel a huge AoE buff is needed for Marksman, with the high amounts of Haste Marksman has with Steady Focus and Multi-Shot only costing 20 Focus the AoE has around the same capability as BM. I do feel it needs a minor increase though.

    Here's a revised list of changes I would consider mandatory in 1 form or another.
    - Aimed Shot cost reduced to 40 Focus
    - Chimera Shot cost reduced to 30 Focus
    - AMoC cost reduced to 40 Focus (for every spec)
    - Piercing Shots now also causes critical Multi-Shots to make the target bleed for 15% of damage dealt over 8 sec.
    - Chimera shot critical hits also deal 80% of it's damage to a 2nd target within 10 yards.
    - Kill Shot deals 60% more damage and has an 8 second cooldown. No longer resets.
    Last edited by Glurp; 2013-02-05 at 12:40 PM.

  7. #7
    Mechagnome
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    Oh, focus is interesting point.
    I also think it would be fine to transfer extra 20 max focus from BM to MM. BM is the spec that has it easiest with focus, yet has biggest pool. Even though I play BM myself, I think it would suit MM better.
    Not so sure about cost of shots though, I think -5 would be fine instead of -10.
    Old Gods made me do it.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Thiron View Post
    Oh, focus is interesting point.
    I also think it would be fine to transfer extra 20 max focus from BM to MM. BM is the spec that has it easiest with focus, yet has biggest pool. Even though I play BM myself, I think it would suit MM better.
    Not so sure about cost of shots though, I think -5 would be fine instead of -10.
    Lowering Focus costs and keeping 100 max Focus does essentially the same thing as keeping the same/minor lowing of Focus costs and giving 120 max Focus. Either way works but the end goal is the same.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Kluddesu View Post
    Or make this ability subject simillar to the Colossus smash PvP/PvE change, Dealing less damage on players/can't crit on players/etc
    That's an idea, but Blizzard doesn't want to separate too many abilities like that because it would very quickly become a confusing mess they said in the past. To be completely honest I don't disagree with them. Another idea is making Kill Shot do it's normal damage but leaving a DoT behind to do the remainder of the damage. This wouldn't really make much of an impact in PvE aside from slightly less burst damage on adds, and wouldn't just instantly do unhealable damage in PvP.

    Regardless all my posts and suggestions are from a PvE perspective unless I specifically mention it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glurp View Post
    @erbs101: I don't feel a huge AoE buff is needed for Marksman, with the high amounts of Haste Marksman has with Steady Focus and Multi-Shot only costing 20 Focus the AoE has around the same capability as BM. I do feel it needs a minor increase though.
    An AoE buff would certainly be welcome, but it really isn't something I think needs to be addressed. If we require heavy AoE somewhere we have a perfectly good Survival spec to use. Yes it's annoying classes like Frost Death Knights got the single target damage as well as ridiculous AoE but I for one don't want a jack-of-all-trades spec. I'm a big fan of mastering different specs and playstyles. But this isn't exactly a professional opinion or anything, it's a personal opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glurp View Post
    Here's a revised list of changes I would consider mandatory in 1 form or another.
    - Aimed Shot cost reduced to 40 Focus
    - Chimera Shot cost reduced to 30 Focus
    - AMoC cost reduced to 40 Focus (for every spec)
    - Piercing Shots now also causes critical Multi-Shots to make the target bleed for 15% of damage dealt over 8 sec.
    - Chimera shot critical hits also deal 80% of it's damage to a 2nd target within 10 yards.
    - Kill Shot deals 60% more damage and has an 8 second cooldown. No longer resets.
    I wouldn't set the focus costs in stone just yet. If those focus costs got implemented straight away just like that, I think Marksmanship would be overbuffed just a little bit. Do like the interaction of Piercing Shots on Multi-Shot crits but I posted my opinion on Marksmanship AoE a little bit above this part.

    With all respect, why the Chimera Shot suggestion? Not saying it's not nice and it would quite fit the name but... what is that really going to add?

  10. #10
    Mechagnome
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glurp View Post
    Lowering Focus costs and keeping 100 max Focus does essentially the same thing as keeping the same/minor lowing of Focus costs and giving 120 max Focus. Either way works but the end goal is the same.
    Lowering focus cost gives you more damage per focus, raising focus cap makes you not waste focus. I think it's different, if you lower focus cost you will fire more focus shots per SS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    With all respect, why the Chimera Shot suggestion? Not saying it's not nice and it would quite fit the name but... what is that really going to add?
    This is actually curious idea, make MM a cleave spec. Maybe even on non-crits, able to Chimera 2 targets, also refreshing SrS on 2 targets. Fits the name of shot too.
    Last edited by Thiron; 2013-02-05 at 01:14 PM.
    Old Gods made me do it.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Thiron View Post
    This is actually curious idea, make MM a cleave spec. Maybe even on non-crits, able to Chimera 2 targets, also refreshing SrS on 2 targets. Fits the name of shot too.
    It sure would be interesting, but that means we are going to suffer from the same problem Combat Rogues did. We would have to be balanced around cleaving and Marksmanship would become to spec you are forced to play on cleave fights and can't play anywhere else. If done properly this could work but this is one of the few reasons why I quit my Rogue. If it's not done properly we will end up with one giant mess where we have to use Beast Mastery for single target, Survival for AoE and Marksmanship for cleave fights. Like I said before I'm a big fan of mastering different specs with different niches, but not if we are forced to use 3 different specs while only have dual specs. Hearthing back to a reforger every fight in Dragon Soul was one of the most infuriating and expensive things I ever had to deal with in this game.

  12. #12
    @OP I think the word you're looking for is "Focus starved" not capped.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Zuchi View Post
    @OP I think the word you're looking for is "Focus starved" not capped.
    I don't think so. With abilities like Rapid Fire active and being forced to pool such high amounts before we can channel say, an Aimed Shot, you very easily focus cap and lose focus as a result. This is one of the problems Marksmanship has at the moment. Even with perfect play you are going to lose bits of focus here and there. The better you are the more you can minimize the focus loss but it's still something that makes the spec rather unpleasant to deal with.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Zuchi View Post
    @OP I think the word you're looking for is "Focus starved" not capped.
    If you go out and play the spec you will see from the huge amount of haste along with rapid fire and dire beast which both regen extra focus, that a shot costing 50% of our Focus pool with a long cast doesn't really fit and you will constantly be capping your focus. If it went down to a 30-35% cost of our Focus pool it would help avoid Focus capping.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    With all respect, why the Chimera Shot suggestion? Not saying it's not nice and it would quite fit the name but... what is that really going to add?
    As you said it fits the name, Chimeras have 2 heads so if the shot hits 2 targets then it makes sense. It gives a small amount of cleave damage but not enough to turn it into "only a cleave spec". As it is currently Hunter's don't really have much in terms of cleave fights. It's either really all AoE or all single target. This gives Marksman the possiblity to have a niche setting for a Hunter.

    As you said it doesn't really help the class on it's flaws, so it's not really required but it could be something nice.
    Last edited by Glurp; 2013-02-05 at 01:54 PM.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    It sure would be interesting, but that means we are going to suffer from the same problem Combat Rogues did. We would have to be balanced around cleaving and Marksmanship would become to spec you are forced to play on cleave fights and can't play anywhere else.
    I get your point, but that would at least give MM a niche. Now it arguably has no place in the game: BM is better for both single target and arena while SV is better for AoE, RBGs and cleave fights. MM just hasn't got its spot and I would complain less if I saw it becoming the "cleave" spec - I'd rather see it at BM's spot, but that's me.

  16. #16
    If you go out and play the spec you will see from the huge amount of haste along with rapid fire and dire beast which both regen extra focus, that a shot costing 50% of our Focus pool with a long cast doesn't really fit and you will constantly be capping your focus. If it went down to a 30-35% cost of our Focus pool it would help avoid Focus capping.
    I quit WoW so can't go and test. But from what I'm reading, it's all a little bit jumbled up (refferring to OP): How's reducing focus cost on abilities going to help in dealing with focus capping?

  17. #17
    it means we have to pool less focus in order to use Aimed/Chimera shot.

  18. #18
    Herald of the Titans SL1200's Avatar
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    Marks had it's day in the sun for 2 expansions i hope they don't buff it too much. It's had it's time.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Spinachsandwich View Post
    Marks had it's day in the sun for 2 expansions i hope they don't buff it too much. It's had it's time.

    It's not about giving MM another "day in the sun", it's about balancing the specs so that we have a choice. We don't have a choice - we play BM unless mechanics require something different(AoE, dmg buffs that pet doesn't get, etc), assuming we want to push the highest numbers. Even MM having a similar relationship to whatever is the top spec that BM and SV have - some kind of niche - would be preferable to current times. Currently, there is literally no reason to play MM(except Marks-specific ranks for lulz).


    -edit-
    It seems Spittialo beat me to it! Sorry for redundant post.

  20. #20
    Just have piercing wounds tick for 45-50k/90-100k a hit/crit like improved SS does and have aimed shot deal 500% weapon damage, problem solved.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spinachsandwich View Post
    Marks had it's day in the sun for 2 expansions i hope they don't buff it too much. It's had it's time.
    What are you talking about? SV has been the spec of choice for the average hunter since wrath and has topped meters with relatively easy play compared to MM. Even GC himself said MM is equal to SV but only if you play it flawlessly. SV doesn't have much to it, it's easy and deals buckets of damage so everyone goes with it and apparently Blizz wishes this to be their hunter design philosophy...

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