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  1. #1
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    Help Please: Protection Spec Paladin DPS

    Hi Community,

    I am seeking some help and assistance and I am hoping you can offer both to me. My post is specifically regarding Protection Spec Paladin and the amount of DPS compared with other tanks that I have tanked alongside. I have only ever tanked alongside a Feral, A Death Knight and a Monk. I figure that I must be doing something wrong or I am missing something fundamentally wrong with the priority system as I find that on the majority of encounters I am a good 20-30% behind in damage.

    I want to focus on some of the generic fights like “Emperor’s Heroic” and “Blade Lord Heroic” as both tanks are doing the relatively the same job for the same amount of time – so in my opinion they are excellent fights to compare with.
    Unfortunately our guilds World of Logs are private so instead I will link some of the results from there and also link my priority system in a hope that you guys could help me obtain more comparable DPS.

    My Character on Armoury: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...s%20Edge/Prid/

    Priority: Hit (To Cap) - Expertise (Soft Cap) - Haste/Mastery – Dodge/Parry – Stamina – Crit

    DPS Priority: HotR (To keep debuff up) > CS > Judgement > AS > Cons > HW – SotR used when damage is incoming (i.e. During the Melee Swings on Emperors) or if no specific use time just use on cooldown.

    The majority of time I am using Seal of Truth however some encounters I am switching to Seal of Insight (However, we’re focusing on when I am using Seal of Truth – As I don’t expect my damage output to be anywhere near the same if I am doing 50K HPS).

    Emperors Heroic: - Fight was completed and lasted a total of 9mins 38seconds.

    Me: 76415.3 DPS (Total Damage 41,922,260) – Active Time – 548.6s

    Monk: 106818.0 DPS (Total Damage 54,422,402) – Active Time – 509.5s

    Looking at my damage for this encounter I have the following:

    Spell Damage done Hits
    # Avg Total
    Opportunistic Strike
    9040000 21.60% 9 1004444 9040000
    Judgment
    7297836 17.40% 68 92880.6 6315880
    Melee
    6405181 15.30% 159 26610.7 4231108
    Shield of the Righteous
    5230169 12.50% 35 126124.4 4414354
    Consecration
    3816044 9.10% 239 14924.7 3567011
    Avenger's Shield
    2995283 7.10% 17 176193.1 2995283
    Crusader Strike
    2951601 7.00% 80 34289.8 2743187
    Censure
    1627393 3.90% -
    Holy Prism
    1238703 3.00% 7 139794.6 978562
    Seal of Truth
    487933 1.20% 410 1030.7 422601
    Hammer of Wrath
    347790 0.80% 2 173895 347790
    Holy Wrath
    189047 0.50% 1 189047 189047
    Stormlash
    188367 0.40% 7 26909.6 188367
    Hammer of the Righteous
    82631 0.20% 7 11804.4 82631
    Hammer of the Righteous
    24282 0.10% 5 4856.4 24282
    41922260 100% 1046 33977.2 35540103





    The other tank (Monk) has:
    Spell Damage done Hits
    # Avg Total
    Melee
    13657085 25.60% 101 35361.7 3571528
    Keg Smash
    9832370 18.40% 34 149963.6 5098763
    Opportunistic Strike
    9120000 17.10% 9 1013333 9120000
    Blackout Kick
    6484755 12.10% 34 95227.9 3237749
    Stagger
    3934388 7.40% 25 18149.4 453735
    Chi Wave
    3005874 5.60% 60 43647 2618820
    Swift Reflexes
    2048492 3.80% 15 65153.3 977300
    Jab
    2034663 3.80% 52 19976.2 1038761
    Tiger Palm
    1845015 3.50% 27 44635.9 1205169
    Expel Harm
    670798 1.30% 17 39458.7 670798
    Spinning Crane Kick
    294145 0.60% 8 14291.9 114335
    Breath of Fire
    229687 0.40% 5 45937.4 229687
    Stormlash
    159240 0.30% 7 22748.6 159240
    Breath of Fire
    69218 0.10% -
    53385730 100% 394 72324.6 28495885

    I appreciate your thoughts and suggestions if there are things I can improve on. Am I doing anything drastically wrong or is it just the mechanics don’t allow me to spam the buttons unlike a Monk (If that’s even possible). Is it were just not balanced DPS wise since the SoT change? Appriciate your time.

    Kind Regards
    Prid


    ---------- Post added 2013-02-05 at 12:07 PM ----------

    Sorry I forgot to link the other fight - If those results from the other fight would be helpful then please let me know and I can add them to the post - Although the wall of text appears big enough at the moment

  2. #2
    Get haste gear, you'll blow away the other tanks on DPS, also I'd swap your weapon enchant for Dancing Steel once you've done that, its about the same as Riversong but you get the added dps (unless your parry DR is much further into DR than dodge) also consider swapping your stam trinkets to something else, for Haste pallies Lei Shen's Final Orders is amazing, you can also grab a ghost iron dragonling to help you with the exp/hit cap to allow you to stack more haste, then you can swap in the stam trinkets for fights that need them, you'll have to judge for yourself which fights the extra few 1000 health is actually going to save your life

    With a haste gearset you'll find that opportunistic strike will fall dramatically down that list
    Last edited by Xs; 2013-02-05 at 12:46 PM.

  3. #3
    Stat priority is 7.5% hit, 15% expertise (!), haste, mastery, stamina, the rest.

    Rotation goes CS-J-X CS-X-J CS-X-X then repeat, X stands for AS, HW, Cons, HoW, SS.
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    Tanking with the Blessing of Kings - The TankSpot Guide to the Protection Paladin - Updated for Patch 5.4!

  4. #4
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    Interesting, thanks for the feedback - so in essence I should just stack DPS gear that has Haste as its primary stat even though it may not have any of the traditional tanking stats?

    + Hard Cap Exp!

  5. #5
    get your exp to 15% and reforge/gem/enchant towards haste. You should also spec into ES instead of HP.

    Honestly I think you would be better off using SoI instead of SoT, the damage from SoT is just so piss poor it hardly worth it

    ......................Protection Paladin PoV.....................

  6. #6
    You have pretty much the same item level as me.

    As others have said, get more gear with haste on it.

    You should get the ghost iron dragonling with haste/hit/exp sockets.
    I would swap out those gems for haste gems aswell.

    Mastery is slightly better for survivability, however the difference is not huge and tank damage is not really issue so getting haste is just better since it adds so much dps.

    I do not know if your glyphs and talents are what you used for Will.
    But I would say, swap out alabaster shield for focused shield.
    Swap out battle healer for, hmm... final wrath maybe, not really so many great choices left. The boss dies quickly the last 20% since dps generally switch to burn boss mode. Though I guess FW is still the best choice.

    You should pretty much never use Holy Prism, use execution sentence or ligths hammer instead.

    I haven't yet got a kill on HC will of the emp, but I did 110k dps on normal will of the emp last week. I would think that around 120-130k is quite reasonable as a tank on heroic. You should for sure aim for 110k+
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-02-05 at 01:13 PM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  7. #7
    What some seriously bad advice. Your a tank, you shouldn't go for maxing dps, but rather make it easier for the healers so they don't have to spend all their time on you.

    Sure haste stacking is viable... ONCE YOU GET HEROIC GEAR!!!
    Before that, it's not viable. And anyone who claims so, are wrong.

    Haste becomes viable once you are able to maintain a 19-20% parry and a 20%+ mastery rate.
    Until then, stacking mastery is better and will get you and your group further and make it easier for everybody.

    Also, the playstyle between haste stacking / avoidance stacking is very different.
    And with haste stacking you SHOULD be using seal of Insight or you'll be a nightmare to heal on a lot of fights.

    And before you all go "but extra damage is easier for progress" that's bullshit.
    The fights were built up around tanks tanking and damage dealers doing their thing. If your groups dps is low, you might think about having the dps tweak their game towards getting a better output, because they are doing something wrong. Our paladin did 50-60k dps on hc emperor, and we managed just fine to kill him and has been doing so on farm status for quite a while.

    Also, I don't get why tanks all of a sudden want to compete so bad on damage done. You chose your role as tank to take damage, not to pull big numbers on the dmg done in a fight. If you wanted that, you might as well have rolled retribution.
    Last edited by DPA; 2013-02-05 at 01:21 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by vep View Post
    Are you really looking for logic in a game that sends you dragons via the mail service?...

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by DPA View Post
    What some seriously bad advice. Your a tank, you shouldn't go for maxing dps, but rather make it easier for the healers so they don't have to spend all their time on you.

    Sure haste stacking is viable... ONCE YOU GET HEROIC GEAR!!!
    Before that, it's not viable. And anyone who claims so, are wrong.

    Haste becomes viable once you are able to maintain a 19-20% parry and a 20%+ mastery rate.
    Until then, stacking mastery is better and will get you and your group further and make it easier for everybody.

    Also, the playstyle between haste stacking / avoidance stacking is very different.
    And with haste stacking you SHOULD be using seal of Insight or you'll be a nightmare to heal on a lot of fights.
    SHIT! I gotta tell my guild I have been doing wrong since MoP beta!

    Jokes aside. Tanks should be going for max dps as it helps healers out. Shorter figths = less healing. Going for max dps also gives us near max survivability so it is barely a trade-off.

    I have been stacking haste with blue and green gear, using haste gems, and I can say it is extremely viable. So I guess that you call me a liar aswell.
    I am currently sitting on a 14% parry and 10% mastery.

    Stacking mastery will not get your group further, rather the opposite.

    Funny that you do not even mention hit and expertise. Like parry and mastery is the most important stats.

    Haste stacking / avoidance stacking playstyle is exactly the same. Only difference is that the haste rotation is sligthly faster, but the playstyle is exactly the same.

    I use SoT on alot of figths and I am not a nightmare to heal.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    SHIT! I gotta tell my guild I have been doing wrong since MoP beta!

    Jokes aside. Tanks should be going for max dps as it helps healers out. Shorter figths = less healing. Going for max dps also gives us near max survivability so it is barely a trade-off.

    I have been stacking haste with blue and green gear, using haste gems, and I can say it is extremely viable. So I guess that you call me a liar aswell.
    I am currently sitting on a 14% parry and 10% mastery.

    Stacking mastery will not get your group further, rather the opposite.

    Funny that you do not even mention hit and expertise. Like parry and mastery is the most important stats.

    Haste stacking / avoidance stacking playstyle is exactly the same. Only difference is that the haste rotation is sligthly faster, but the playstyle is exactly the same.

    I use SoT on alot of figths and I am not a nightmare to heal.
    I don't mention hit/exp because that's standard stats to maintain...
    Also you're ignoring the fact that he gains the survivability stats with hc gear and therefore is able to begin to stack haste, when it becomes viable at those ilvls.

    It really seems like you totally ignore all the number crushers out there, and just want to be a cool guy placed high on the dps meter.
    And yes, you are a nightmare to heal compared to survivability/mitgation stat stacking paladins. Just because you've done something for a long time doesn't make it right.
    You're suggesting the "cookie-cutter" for prot paladins, to a guy going on hc modes.
    I agree that for a fight like hc emperor, haste stacking might very likely be viable to go for, but thats 1 single fight to set your gear up for.
    Majority of the fights you'll be better off stacking avoidance stats and mastery.
    Last edited by DPA; 2013-02-05 at 01:39 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by vep View Post
    Are you really looking for logic in a game that sends you dragons via the mail service?...

  10. #10
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    Also, I don't get why tanks all of a sudden want to compete so bad on damage done. You chose your role as tank to take damage, not to pull big numbers on the dmg done in a fight. If you wanted that, you might as well have rolled retribution.
    I think you misunderstood me. I am not trying to compete with damage classes. I am trying to complete in damage with the other tank. i.e. If both tanks finish bottom of damage good thats fine - as long as they are close to finishing bottom - been 20-30% of the other tank is rather annoying. I am not trying to compete with the DPSers at DPSing.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-05 at 01:46 PM ----------

    Disagreements are always cool. It means there is a difference of opinion and that its not quiet as clear as some make out. I would love to speak to someone who is doing heroic modes at the moment and see what they were doing at around my gear level - I think I am hitting a little above my weight at the moment (Sup-Par gear for heroics). Hopefully that will change soon

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by DPA View Post
    I don't mention hit/exp because that's standard stats to maintain...
    Also you're ignoring the fact that he gains the survivability stats with hc gear and therefore is able to begin to stack haste, when it becomes viable at those ilvls.

    It really seems like you totally ignore all the number crushers out there, and just want to be a cool placed high on the dps meter.
    And yes, you are a nightmare to heal compared to survivability/mitgation stat stacking paladins. Just because you've done something for a long time doesn't make it right.
    You're suggesting the "cookie-cutter" for prot paladins, to a guy going on hc modes.
    I agree that for a fight like hc emperor, haste stacking might very likely be viable to go for, but thats 1 single fight to set your gear up for.
    Majority of the fights you'll be better off stacking avoidance stats and mastery.
    Funny, I think hc emperor is one of the figths where haste ( in terms of pure tank survivability ) performs at its worst.

    But hey! Lets bring up figths and which stat is better on each figth!
    (talking hc modes here)

    Dogs - Haste hands down
    Feng - Haste hands down
    Gara'Jal - Mastery/avoidance if your healers are having issues. If they are not having issue, haste.
    Spirit Kings - Haste
    Elegon - Haste
    Will - Argueably mastery if you are having issues to survive. However haste shortens the figth alot making it probably stronger in more cases.

    Vizier - Same as before. Master will help you survive slightly better, however haste is probably stronger anyway.
    Bladelord - If you can survive the strikes, haste, nvm, scratch that, if you can't survive the strikes, use cds better, so haste wins either way.
    Garalon - Haste
    Windlord - Haaaste. This is getting old
    Amber Shaper - Haste
    Empress - I haven't done this personally on heroic, but I have heard both sides from tank that have done it. Mastery will be slightly better on the P2 add tanking. If you however can handle the add tanking, then the rest of the figth benefit haste.

    Protectors - Haste
    Tsulong - Haste
    Lei-Shi - Haste
    Sha of fear - I heard both ways here, mastery is better for surviving thrashes ( duh ), but if you can survive them, as before, haste is better.


    Seems like you do not understand that haste is also a survivability stat. I fail to understand why haste is not viable at lower ilvls.
    I would love you to educate me why haste is not viable in lets say, 463 and 489 gear. And also why avoidance + mastery is.

    you are a nightmare to heal compared to survivability/mitgation stat stacking paladins.
    You do realise that haste gearing is mitigation and survivability gearing. You are suggestion to go avoidance over haste, which is the complete opposite.
    The fact that you even suggest parry or dodge on a paladin show how little you know about tanking this expansion.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  12. #12
    Well if you look at the logs from 10-man heroic and 25-man heroic Paladin tanks is behind both DKs, druids and monks so you should be doing lower dps then them if you are about equally geared and skilled.

    Don't take the numbers below as exact facts, they just give a hint that paladin tanks and warriors are in the lower end when it comes to tank dps.

    Average tank dps 10-man heroic:
    1. Monk - 68300 dps
    2. Druid - 60637 dps
    3. DK - 59843 dps
    4. Paladin - 56780 dps
    5. Warrior - 52625 dps

    Source: http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_D...00011111000000

    Average tank dps 25-man heroic:
    1. Monk - 80642 dps
    2. Druid - 73799 dps
    3. DK - 70402 dps
    4. Paladin - 69255 dps
    5. Warrior - 66856 dps

    Source: http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_D...00011111000000

    But as other said, stacking haste is good for your dps and for your tanking.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Pridelock View Post
    I think you misunderstood me. I am not trying to compete with damage classes. I am trying to complete in damage with the other tank. i.e. If both tanks finish bottom of damage good thats fine - as long as they are close to finishing bottom - been 20-30% of the other tank is rather annoying. I am not trying to compete with the DPSers at DPSing.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-05 at 01:46 PM ----------

    Disagreements are always cool. It means there is a difference of opinion and that its not quiet as clear as some make out. I would love to speak to someone who is doing heroic modes at the moment and see what they were doing at around my gear level - I think I am hitting a little above my weight at the moment (Sup-Par gear for heroics). Hopefully that will change soon
    You are correct to ask questions about your dps. I do not understand people who says like "tanks shouldnt focus on damage".

    If a tank can do 40k more dps on a figth, well, then that boss is gonna die faster.
    Tank dps is extremely valuable. It is kinda in the same boat as healer dps.
    We had healers doing between 3-8M damage on a figth making or breaking the figth
    Everything helps. Our healers always dish out damage when they can, since it really helps progression. The same way tanks should put out more damage if they can.

    I was helping out the second raid group in my guild to help them get some heroic progress in MSV. On their first kill on Elegon HC, I actually finished top on damage done. I see no reason why not to utilize tanks dps?
    ( aswell as being top on dogs, feng, kings and will HC )
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  14. #14
    Please point out where I specifically suggested going for dodge/parry? Although these stats help avoiding damage they are not the best stats for paladins, where mastery comes in as their mitigation stat (blocks). Their damage taken is less spiky making them easier to heal.

    Besides when all comes to all it's a matter of playstyle. The difference of stacking haste and mastery on damage done is minor and can be counted in as low as 0.1-0.5% difference. Which is why he can help out on damage done on fights where they are close to enrage, but as I also pointed out, that reason might come from his guilds dps classes not pulling enough damage.

    With that said, it is up to OP if he can manage to play the faster playstyle from haste stacking where it is required to use cs/judgement on cd.
    Quote Originally Posted by vep View Post
    Are you really looking for logic in a game that sends you dragons via the mail service?...

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by DPA View Post
    I don't mention hit/exp because that's standard stats to maintain...
    Also you're ignoring the fact that he gains the survivability stats with hc gear and therefore is able to begin to stack haste, when it becomes viable at those ilvls.

    It really seems like you totally ignore all the number crushers out there, and just want to be a cool guy placed high on the dps meter.
    And yes, you are a nightmare to heal compared to survivability/mitgation stat stacking paladins. Just because you've done something for a long time doesn't make it right.
    You're suggesting the "cookie-cutter" for prot paladins, to a guy going on hc modes.
    I agree that for a fight like hc emperor, haste stacking might very likely be viable to go for, but thats 1 single fight to set your gear up for.
    Majority of the fights you'll be better off stacking avoidance stats and mastery.
    God I feel like someone's trying to troll us right now. I can't say I've gone haste as long as Firefly but i'll tell you, I found out about the haste build after our guilds first raid night. We'd killed Stone Guards and Feng normal and were working on Gara'jal before we called it. That night I found Theck's post about haste and started swapping my gear over (this is standard 463 H gear while pushing normals mind you) and lo and behold, we came back to Gara'jal and me being sceptic about the haste build I asked my healers if I was easier or harder to heal than before. It was a unanimous "you're way easier to heal now".

    The haste build works, start to finish from just dinged 90 to H BiS and it's the best build to run with due to damage smoothing, damage done and healing output. The only exceptions would be certain fights like say H Will, H Empress and H Sha where a mastery build can pull ahead if you're haste set isn't fully fleshed out, otherwise every single encounter can still be done with a lot more ease using a haste set.

    PS: Firefly here's the last H Will kill our guild did to backup dps potential (kill was almost a month ago now, guilds fallen from raiding a bit lately.) WoL Linky

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    You are correct to ask questions about your dps. I do not understand people who says like "tanks shouldnt focus on damage".

    If a tank can do 40k more dps on a figth, well, then that boss is gonna die faster.
    Tank dps is extremely valuable. It is kinda in the same boat as healer dps.
    We had healers doing between 3-8M damage on a figth making or breaking the figth
    Everything helps. Our healers always dish out damage when they can, since it really helps progression. The same way tanks should put out more damage if they can.

    I was helping out the second raid group in my guild to help them get some heroic progress in MSV. On their first kill on Elegon HC, I actually finished top on damage done. I see no reason why not to utilize tanks dps?
    ( aswell as being top on dogs, feng, kings and will HC )
    Now you suggest for guilds only rolling for healers that can dps too? What about druids or shamans, holy priests, holy paladins? They should just ignore these to get dps heal classes?
    Last edited by DPA; 2013-02-05 at 02:02 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by vep View Post
    Are you really looking for logic in a game that sends you dragons via the mail service?...

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Ater View Post
    Well if you look at the logs from 10-man heroic and 25-man heroic Paladin tanks is behind both DKs, druids and monks so you should be doing lower dps then them if you are about equally geared and skilled.

    Don't take the numbers below as exact facts, they just give a hint that paladin tanks and warriors are in the lower end when it comes to tank dps.

    Average tank dps 10-man heroic:
    1. Monk - 68300 dps
    2. Druid - 60637 dps
    3. DK - 59843 dps
    4. Paladin - 56780 dps
    5. Warrior - 52625 dps

    Source: http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_D...00011111000000

    Average tank dps 25-man heroic:
    1. Monk - 80642 dps
    2. Druid - 73799 dps
    3. DK - 70402 dps
    4. Paladin - 69255 dps
    5. Warrior - 66856 dps

    Source: http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_D...00011111000000

    But as other said, stacking haste is good for your dps and for your tanking.
    Those numbers are being off-set by so many tanks not going haste.
    If you check the top100 instead of all logs, you will see that paladins are actually rank 1 on 25hc, and just slightly behind druids in 10hc.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-05 at 03:06 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by DPA View Post
    Now you suggest for guilds only rolling for healers that can dps too? What about druids or shamans, holy priests, holy paladins? They should just ignore these to get dps heal classes?
    Ehr, our druid use heart of the wild talent for DPS purposes. Whenever there is a downtime in healing he communicates with the other healer "Okay you are solo now, I'm gonna dps". Holy paladins can also dish out quite alot of damage. Monks aswell. Fistweaver ftw.

    The arguably worst healing class for dpsing is shamans, but all healing classes dishes out a lot of damage.
    Shamans do however got that thing that gives them mana from lightning bolt or something.

    So, it is your opinion that healers should not dps during figths when they can?
    Say you got 3 healers, each doing 3M damage, that is 9M damage over the entire figth. How often have you wiped below 9M on a figth? Very often.

    The only reason we managed to kill pre-nerf gara in normal was because our healers did so much damage.

    I was not talking about healers like smite priests that do damage + healing, was saying that healers should do damage when they got nothing to heal. If they are just standing their wanking off when there is no damage to heal, why not do 1M damage when you can? Maybe adding up to a couple of M's during the figth.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-02-05 at 02:08 PM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by DPA View Post
    Now you suggest for guilds only rolling for healers that can dps too? What about druids or shamans, holy priests, holy paladins? They should just ignore these to get dps heal classes?
    Druids can use Wrath, shamans can use lightning bolt and paladins can use denounce.

    Besides when all comes to all it's a matter of playstyle. The difference of stacking haste and mastery on damage done is minor and can be counted in as low as 0.1-0.5% difference. Which is why he can help out on damage done on fights where they are close to enrage, but as I also pointed out, that reason might come from his guilds dps classes not pulling enough damage.
    When Mastery and Haste are almost equal in the mitigation they provide, and Haste provides a significant damage and healing boost on top of that and Mastery does not, why would you even consider Mastery?

    It is also irrelevant where the damage is missing for the berserk timer. If you can provide the DPS that will kill the boss, regardless of your role, without compromising survivability or your primary role then of course you should definitely do so.
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by DPA View Post
    Please point out where I specifically suggested going for dodge/parry?
    Here

    Quote Originally Posted by DPA View Post
    Haste becomes viable once you are able to maintain a 19-20% parry and a 20%+ mastery rate.
    Here ( well, not specifically suggesting it, however you suggest avoidance stacking as a viable option )

    Quote Originally Posted by DPA View Post
    Also, the playstyle between haste stacking / avoidance stacking is very different.



    Quote Originally Posted by DPA View Post
    dodge/parry? Although these stats help avoiding damage they are not the best stats for paladins, where mastery comes in as their mitigation stat (blocks). Their damage taken is less spiky making them easier to heal.

    Besides when all comes to all it's a matter of playstyle. The difference of stacking haste and mastery on damage done is minor and can be counted in as low as 0.1-0.5% difference. Which is why he can help out on damage done on fights where they are close to enrage, but as I also pointed out, that reason might come from his guilds dps classes not pulling enough damage.

    With that said, it is up to OP if he can manage to play the faster playstyle from haste stacking where it is required to use cs/judgement on cd.
    The block from mastery is horrible this expansion. The main part is the increased SotR damage reduction.
    Haste is pretty much the definition of mitigation this expansion since it adds passive healing scaling linearly and linearly scaling HoPo generation increase.

    Also, 0.1-0.5% difference? Really? <3 If I would swap all my haste to mastery, I would lose more than 30% dps. Yes, THIRTY percent.

    Also, "guilds dps not pulling enough damage", worst argument ever. Even if we can kill a boss before enrage, if we can kill it 2 min before enrage is even better. You can NEVER have to much dps. More dps is always helpful and will make you kill bosses faster.

    Say X boss requires you to have 500k raid dps to beat the enrage. One raid group is pulling 550k raid dps and the other is pulling 700k raid dps. Which group wil likely kill the boss first?

    cs/judgement is required to use on CD in every playstyle ^^

    Either you are the biggest troll in long while on the paladin forums, or you have no idea how tanking actually works rigth now.

    Still waiting for you reason behind haste not being viable until heroic mode gear.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-02-05 at 02:24 PM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  20. #20
    Haste becomes viable once you are able to maintain a 19-20% parry and a 20%+ mastery rate.
    I have 19% parry and 17 mastery when raid buffed with only one "traditional" tanking item equipped (granted, it is a pair of 517 ilvl shoulders, but still). All of my parry chance comes from my Strength.

    With that said, it is up to OP if he can manage to play the faster playstyle from haste stacking where it is required to use cs/judgement on cd.
    If you don't do that, you are DOING IT WRONG.
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    Tanking with the Blessing of Kings - The TankSpot Guide to the Protection Paladin - Updated for Patch 5.4!

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