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  1. #1

    If Rogues are still bad post-5.2, your adding more visuals? Greaaaaat.....

    Rogues get a bit of love in 5.2,but what if history holds and their pop still doesnt grow.What will be your next step if any?
    Great question and we don't have an answer to share yet. We are looking at more exciting visuals. (Source)

    So pretty much if rogues are still bad after 5.2, we are just gunna make their bad moves look pretty?

    We are hurting so bad in 2's AND 3's right now, make the combo points OUR points, not on the target PLEASE!
    Last edited by Auberdeen; 2013-02-05 at 04:49 PM.

  2. #2
    Epic! GenaiTN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auberdeen View Post
    Rogues get a bit of love in 5.2,but what if history holds and their pop still doesnt grow.What will be your next step if any?
    Great question and we don't have an answer to share yet. We are looking at more exciting visuals. (Source)

    So pretty much if rogues are still bad after 5.2, we are just gunna make their bad moves look pretty?

    We are hurting so bad in 2's right now, make the combo points OUR points, not on the target PLEASE!
    2s isn't what they balanced pvp around. Look at 3s and RBG.

  3. #3
    That isn't what he said. He was talking about ROGUE POPULATION. That is not the same thing as arena or RBG viability.

    Now, just for the record, the specific buff you request probably WOULD up rogue population a bit- combo points are a very stifling mechanic to players who aren't used to them, it is unintuitive to be largely robbed of your resource when your target dies.

    5.2 contains a lot of rogue buffs. But rogues could be top shelf and still our global numbers would be low. I think this is because: in order for rogues to not be a burden, they need to have a mile and a half of raid gear (or pvp gear) and be 90. If you chop off the rated arena and the raid guilds, you see rogues doing really bad damage and no utility for 90 levels of leveling and dungeons- I think that hurts perception of the class among the people who don't DO those other things.

    But GC addresses a very good point- unlike the iconic and interesting spells cast by other classes, the only cool looking rogue moves are shadow step, shadow dance, and the cool little things that pop up when you cast blade flurry or glyph of detection. The mutilate animation is good, but was handed to other classes promptly, vendetta HAS a graphic, technically... GC is correct that addressing visuals a bit would probably improve class participation.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-05 at 05:00 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Felir View Post
    2s isn't what they balanced pvp around. Look at 3s and RBG.
    http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/stat...0-0-3-0-0.html

    Here's 3v3, with rogues and monks in sharp competition for last place, both around 1/5th the rep of the weakest Cata classes, and with warriors at 20% rep- double the expectation- far more than the 15% shaman had in the past season. The entire graph spans nearly TWICE the area that it used to- it's fair to say the game is "twice as unbalanced" as it was before. It's even more disturbing when you realize that in most seasons people complain about DPS classes that are highly repped, but it is always healers who have more rep- until this season, of course, where arms warriors occupy a historically unprecedented position (so do rogues and monks).

    http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/stat...0-0-9-0-0.html

    This is like the same graph, but not QUITE as bad. This is RBGs. Rogues are also terrible here.


    5.2 could honestly address these issues. Rogues are getting a couple new tricks, and several of the crippling, game destroying nerfs are being reverted, such as the frankly horrible idea to put prep on a tier with mobility. One of the new tricks, cloak and dagger, has the makings of a new avatar- a potentially overpowered burst phase for sub.

  4. #4
    A quick fix to rogues would be let their combo points stack the same way spriest get orbs... You add orbs to rogues which they earn using abilities that award orbs (combo points). That way that damage is transferable and doesn't drop off if the target dies. Set the orbs to have a timer on them so they will fade off.
    ...Made it through 9 years of wow...

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    That isn't what he said. He was talking about ROGUE POPULATION. That is not the same thing as arena or RBG viability.
    Exactly.

    Population and popularity is a very different beast than balance or viability, and both issues need to be addressed.

    This specific question was about the rogue population, not about how good/bad they are.

    The person asked if, even with the love they are getting in regards to balance and utility in 5.2, if they are still unpopular, what other steps will Blizzard take to make more people want to play the class.

    CG answered that spicing up rogue visuals to make the more exciting could be an answer to popularity problems, and he's completely right that rogues are by far the least visually interesting class right now.

    The conversation was not in any way about class balance or viability.

  6. #6
    The Insane peggleftw's Avatar
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    rogues are not bad in 5.2. but i would combo points to be on me and not the target, so much better.
    Too cool for a signature

  7. #7
    The Insane Slowpoke is a Gamer's Avatar
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    Rogues aren't underpowered in PvP, I find myself tearing my hair out when playing against them in BGs.

    IMO Rogues are too complicated. It's not that they aren't flashy. Combo points need to be examined, and something needs to be done to make them easier to transfer between targets without making it feel like Chi.
    "You should only install Warlords on your master hard drive. They will never be slaves." - @CM_Lore

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  8. #8
    People in general don't like energy classes on account of energy acts as a CD on all your abilities with variable duration, based on haste and energy refund. It's not something a button spammer can do well on, even at its easiest. That's why it doesn't appeal to a lot of players and low population as a result.

  9. #9
    Moderator Sj's Avatar
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    Rogues are a complicated class to play. It's easy to play a rogue, but it's extremely difficult to play one to its full potential, especially in PVP.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    The mutilate animation is good...
    But, let's be honest, it ain't good for female worgen.


  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by dokhidamo View Post
    Rogues aren't underpowered in PvP, I find myself tearing my hair out when playing against them in BGs.
    On live, they are objectively WILDLY underpowered. Along with monks, they occupy a position so bad that no class sucked this much in cata.

    I would suggest that you might be facing substantially more skilled or geared rogues in BGs that are frustrating you.

    IMO Rogues are too complicated. It's not that they aren't flashy. Combo points need to be examined, and something needs to be done to make them easier to transfer between targets without making it feel like Chi.
    This has been brought up a ton in this thread. Honestly, it COULD be a part of rogue popularity being so low. Combo points are unforgiving compared to other resources, ALL of which "feel like chi". Holy Power, Chi, shadow orbs, runes, runic power, and rage- all really actually "feel like rage", the only vanilla resource with these properties.

    I don't feel such a change is necessary, but I've been maining a rogue for so many years now that I consider combo points both very flowing compared to past designs, and reasonably easy to make use of, with both slice and recup often needing refreshment and with redirect available if you have like 4 or 5 of them. It's definitely a VERY common complaining point about the class, a rather opaque system.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    On live, they are objectively WILDLY underpowered. Along with monks, they occupy a position so bad that no class sucked this much in cata.
    They aren't underpowered so much as some classes were ridiculously overpowered to the point of being faceroll for even terrible players. Like Warriors pre-Avatar nerf.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by daetur View Post
    but, let's be honest, it ain't good for female worgen.

    AAAauuuuuuGUGHHHHHhhhhh

  14. #14
    Warchief Kilpi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daetur View Post
    But, let's be honest, it ain't good for female worgen.
    That's a pose, not an animation. Doesn't tell anything about the actual animation. Good try though.

  15. #15
    The population always swings to rogues when they either become
    1. Face roll PvE
    2. Get legendary weapons
    3. Have huge pvp buffs allowing them to almost 1v1 most people

    So yes I would support a more fancy animations or either tweaks they could bring that brings the population up without screwing over the other balances of pve and pvp
    ...Made it through 9 years of wow...

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    They aren't underpowered so much as some classes were ridiculously overpowered to the point of being faceroll for even terrible players. Like Warriors pre-Avatar nerf.
    Nope! I can safely say that you are totally uninformed. Well, not about warriors being ridiculously overpowered, but about rogues not being underpowered.

    http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/stat...0-0-3-0-0.html

    3v3 rep. Look to the left of the graph, and you'll see the overpowered legendary wielding rogue of 4.3, right underneath the top ranked class of the season- shaman. Obviously, while enhance and elemental weren't AWFUL, they weren't the reason shaman were well repped- resto was. You'd expect a healer to be in top spot, and this season you'd be wrong- arms is dominant, to a point never seen before.

    But look at the BOTTOM of the graph. The poor weak classes at the tail end of cataclysm were all hovering around 5% rep- that means that the devs failed to give them ways to win. But now check out the NEW bottom of the graph! With monks and rogues really effing terrible, at a representation lower than all those previously bad classes, by a factor of 2-5.

    Whoa. Looks like rogues really ARE that bad!

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Kilpi View Post
    That's a pose, not an animation. Doesn't tell anything about the actual animation. Good try though.
    It's what the female worgen contorts herself into halfway through the Mutilate animation, so I think it certainly says something. That's really not an argument for this thread, though.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by pimpeddakota View Post
    The population always swings to rogues when they either become
    1. Face roll PvE
    2. Get legendary weapons
    3. Have huge pvp buffs allowing them to almost 1v1 most people
    One census site did have rogues overtake locks for the first time since like... vanilla? But Blizzard quickly confirmed that rogues were still the lowest population class, in a giant QQ thread that warlocks made when worldofwhatever showed legendaries pushing rogue numbers higher than them.

    Obviously, MoP erased even those small gains.

    The truth of the matter is, legendaries didn't even temporarily change the rogue population in a meaningful way. They didn't even put rogues as second least popular class.

    I would also say, though I'll save my arguments for a different thread, that rogues really DO need to be strong enough to "1v1 people". The brief version, which I'm not going to get into, is that a rogue often gets "the perfect open", and if he can't expect to get a win from that with top play, a VERY fast conclusion is that he can't win at all. This isn't the same as "everyone should die in cheap shot".

  19. #19
    rogues right now are fine in pvp, more than a few rogues have made it over 2500 rating in 3's, in 5.2 they will be overpowered again if the patch was to hit today. and combo points not being on the target is the dumbest idea i have ever heard, that's what redirect is for. please stop complaining, you're about to become the biggest problem in pvp like you were for all of cata and you're already complaining.

  20. #20
    From a conceptual standpoint, Rogues are not interesting, the class has an image problem.

    When I think of a Rogue, all I imagine is someone who stabs things with daggers. Rogues don't do anything fancy. They have minor stealth/teleportation magic, but other than that they just stab things, and that's it. That's the extent of everything cool about the class.

    Every other class in the game seems more interesting than Rogues. Even Hunters, who almost have all the same problems, (Ranged attacker that just shoots stuff and is vaguely stealthy), has the added benefit of the animal companion, which drives up the interest factor by far.

    If upping visuals give the class/specs an actual identity, then I'm all for it. Right now they're just a yellow dot, and I will never play one until they get more interesting.

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