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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Migraine View Post
    That's the bit I am on about, perhaps it is just how I am reading it. The main point I am trying to make is whatever spirit works for you may not work for another healer and telling them that they need a certain amount is a mistake. I raid with 8k and would suggest to people that it is worth a try at that but if they prefer the cushion of more that is fine.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-12 at 11:46 PM ----------



    I would at least change the JC gem for an int gem 160int > 160spi, at least I cannot see you weighting spirit one for one against int. How much mana are you finishing fights with?
    have u killed the last couple boss's yet? like empress, protectors etc? Im not saying healing them with 8k spirit isnt possible, as it obviously is... Im just saying personally i felt a lot more comfortable being at 10k+... but my raid doesnt have a shaman giving me mana totem, where as maybe u have a shaman and preist in ur raid providing hymm+totem.

    Like i said, it was jsut a guideline of wot i personally use... the point was more that the end couple boss's require a lot more healing than the 1st 5 and the 2nd lot of 5... I noticed a big jump in mana usage hence the increase in spirit

    Ive even droped down to 9.2k spirit for our empress farm kills now, but thats because as a raid we are more efficient at killing it, so less damage, better mana management, etc etc

  2. #42
    Herald of the Titans Aqua's Avatar
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    Druids don't need nearly as much spirit as holy paladin. My team quite frequently runs with me (HP) and a Druid healer. And comparing us he doesn't need nearly as much as I do to keep himself afloat. We're at fairly equal strength depending on fight mechanics.

    I have a resto druid alt and I've noticed being at 6k spirit (in blues) I can still plough through with no troubles.
    Something I found unthinkable at the start of MoP with my paladin.


    So I think they've a different scale to us and a different way of healing. When you reach all epics I think cutting some spirit for added haste, int or mastery is prudent.
    Quote Originally Posted by savutitus View Post
    Yeah, it's always WAR WAR WAR untill..BY ALL THAT IS HOLY DO YOU SEE THAT ENEMY OVER THERE?? GLORIOUS LOOT!!!!!

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by felis View Post
    Please please please stop telling people they have the wrong amount of spirit.
    For sure if they link logs tell them they have thier spell selection wrong.
    Tell them they have their other stats wrong.
    But you are not in their raid group
    Yuu don't know their healing partners.
    You don't know how much people stand in fire.
    You don't know how good their tanks are.
    The rule for spirit is (assuming you have good spell selection which is a big assumtion)
    If you never get close to oom you have too much.
    If you constantly run oom before the end of fights you have not enough.
    As you get better you will find u can cope with less spirit.
    As your raid get better you will need less spirit.
    When stuff goes wrong you might wish you had a bit more spirit.
    qft. It's quite easy to say: "lol I healed the big boss heroic with 5k spirit", and when you link logs you can see you had two shadowpriests hymning and two shaman heals tiding in a 10 player raid. It all depends.

    Additionally, 2k secondary stat is nothing. When people say: "I have 8k spirit" does it mean they calculated spirit proc/use trinkets in? If they use for example the darkmooncard and tsulong trinket, that's more than 10k spirit in the average, where another one who uses Qin-xi's doesn't get any additional spirit benefits.

    So if your healers go oom in the middle of a fight, you need to link logs. Then it might be possible to judge if there is too much raid damage, they use wrong casts or no cooldowns, or if they should increase their manapool by stacking more spirit.

  4. #44
    I think I'm raiding with sub 10k spirit (11/16hc) but I do use Tsulong and DMC.

    I generally heal with a holy paladin, 3 heal with either a disc or resto sham depending on what we need. Anyway, the thing I've found most important has been knowledge of the fight and awareness of when you should use your cooldowns. When your raid know how to avoid stupid damage, you too avoid having to waste mana. When you know when big damage is incoming, you can preemptively use your cooldowns to avoid overheal and overspend (eg treeform on hc Will when tanks are about to take massive damage, blanket raid with blooms and spam tanks with free regrowths).

    TLDR: I have spirit on all of my items, but gem pure throughput. Knowing how to use my heals ensures that they don't overheal massively, and I don't go oom. At the end of the day 2k more spirit isn't going to keep your mana up when you just mindlessly spam heals on the raid.

    ps. get ranged to stack when they can, helps massively on efflo.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathruler11 View Post
    have u killed the last couple boss's yet? like empress, protectors etc? Im not saying healing them with 8k spirit isnt possible, as it obviously is... Im just saying personally i felt a lot more comfortable being at 10k+... but my raid doesnt have a shaman giving me mana totem, where as maybe u have a shaman and preist in ur raid providing hymm+totem.

    Like i said, it was jsut a guideline of wot i personally use... the point was more that the end couple boss's require a lot more healing than the 1st 5 and the 2nd lot of 5... I noticed a big jump in mana usage hence the increase in spirit

    Ive even droped down to 9.2k spirit for our empress farm kills now, but thats because as a raid we are more efficient at killing it, so less damage, better mana management, etc etc
    We are working on Tsulong heroic at the moment after that we only have Sha left, Protectors HC I didn't find that intensive but in fairness I had a pretty heavy liquid lunch that day so perhaps I just didn't remember it being that bad, Empress I made it to the last phase on pretty much full mana then burnt that there. We do have a shaman in most raids but I don't regem if he is not about, likewise with priests.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Migraine View Post
    I would at least change the JC gem for an int gem 160int > 160spi, at least I cannot see you weighting spirit one for one against int. How much mana are you finishing fights with?
    In progress I barely finish fight with mana left.

  7. #47
    The Patient Drefan's Avatar
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    I play in a 10man Heroic raiding guild so this will be from a 10man PoV.

    I think a lot of people overastimates spirit and I'll try to explain why.

    If your raid is taking heavy damage and you feel like you don't have enough mana or globals to keep them up, people tend to turn towards a stat build that revolves around getting high spirit. This is exactly why you will be going OOM and see people dying, Druid healing is not about being able to have 10 rejus up on the raid without going oom. We are built around three key spells for AoE healing; Swiftmend, Wild Growth and Rejuvenation with two big AoE Healing CD; Tranq and ToL.

    Keeping Swiftmend on cooldown will give you more healing from it's ground effect, however healing with swiftmend is based upon having good knowledge where you can "put" it so the swiftmend so the ground effect will hit as many players (max 3, 4 in next patch with 2set Tier) as possible.

    Wild Growth our second spell is just about keeping on cd when raid is taking damage. Make sure not to use it when the raid are at 100%, since the WG will not jump at times when people are at 100%.

    And last Rejuvenation. A strong hot that for some players turn into this big "hot everyone button". This should be avoided at all costs, that is because it is the most mana expensive way to heal up the raid and should therefore be avoided. How I normally use Rejuvenation is to hot the players not affected by Wild Growth when all raid members are taking a lot of damage and ofcourse keeping it on players I KNOW will take damage for the duration of the hot.



    I've 7861 Spirit and I'm gemming and reforging according to this prio Int > Mastery > Spirit.
    With more Int and Mastery my healing spells will become stronger, and therefore I'm less likely being forced to spam Rejuvenation on the raid.
    With this being said having more Int and Mastery is more likely to solve your mana and healing issues rather then a pure Spirit build.

    Also note that using your Swiftmend and getting good swiftmend ground healing is a big part of what will make you do more hps.
    The same goes with the handeling of your two big raid cooldowns. Talking to your fellow healing partners is needed so you know who will be doing what and when.

    This is just my opinion, hope it helps!
    Last edited by Drefan; 2013-02-17 at 05:06 AM.
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  8. #48
    Think I proved it in a thread a while back when discussing with dendrek, but assuming that the extra healing you get from your spirit is "usefull", then more spirit is a better throughput increase than intellect. Discussion is here -
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...astery-gt-Int?

    Spirit on every piece or reforged, and only unlocking major bonuses with gems. Healed every 25 man hc encounter now except protectors and Sha on the character now. I'm a firm believer of "if you didn't run OOM, you don't drop spirit - you throw out more big heals/rejuvs".

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Think I proved it in a thread a while back when discussing with dendrek, but assuming that the extra healing you get from your spirit is "usefull", then more spirit is a better throughput increase than intellect. Discussion is here -
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...astery-gt-Int?

    Spirit on every piece or reforged, and only unlocking major bonuses with gems. Healed every 25 man hc encounter now except protectors and Sha on the character now. I'm a firm believer of "if you didn't run OOM, you don't drop spirit - you throw out more big heals/rejuvs".
    As far as I was aware you didn't prove anything in that thread. I feel that you fail to take into account is play style, you can make up for the removal of spirit by playing better ie. if I can cut back on wasting two rejuvenations in a three minute period by not putting them on someone that is going to get healed to full then I can drop a thousand spirit. Perhaps it is just the proficiency of the healing team that I run with and the fact that we rarely run with healing assignments (Garalon due to range, Tsulong night phase due to needing a tank healer) but I know that the spirit I run with is right for my group. Our healers will also use the available cool downs that our group has our most recent raid had two priests, a resto shammy and a couple of boomkins that's a significant chunk of external mana CDs that are available to the raid.

    I remember a while back in a thread where someone was complaining about a healer needing in an item that didn't have spirit on it, someone replied that spirit for healers was a lot like hit for dps, once you have enough you don't need to carry on stacking it; enough may not be a firm number like hit is for a dps.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Migraine View Post
    As far as I was aware you didn't prove anything in that thread. I feel that you fail to take into account is play style, you can make up for the removal of spirit by playing better ie. if I can cut back on wasting two rejuvenations in a three minute period by not putting them on someone that is going to get healed to full then I can drop a thousand spirit. Perhaps it is just the proficiency of the healing team that I run with and the fact that we rarely run with healing assignments (Garalon due to range, Tsulong night phase due to needing a tank healer) but I know that the spirit I run with is right for my group. Our healers will also use the available cool downs that our group has our most recent raid had two priests, a resto shammy and a couple of boomkins that's a significant chunk of external mana CDs that are available to the raid.

    I remember a while back in a thread where someone was complaining about a healer needing in an item that didn't have spirit on it, someone replied that spirit for healers was a lot like hit for dps, once you have enough you don't need to carry on stacking it; enough may not be a firm number like hit is for a dps.
    How did I not prove it? It's concrete numbers, really - if X amount of spirit allows you to cast one more Rejuv, and the same amount of Int raises your healing by Y%, then all there is to it, is compare the numbers - does the rejuv or the Y% amount of healing done increase give the bigger numbers boost? If Rejuv, then spirit is better, if Y%, then Int is better.

    You can argue playstyle all you want, but this is as close as you get to actual "numbers" telling you if Spirit or Int is better. Remember, if your rejuv is overhealing, then you have to assume that your bigger heals from more int would overheal, too.

    Also, forcing your dpsers to use cooldowns just because they have them is dumb on progress. If you NEED the cooldowns, obviously you make use of them. If you don't, let them worry about their job (beating the enrage) instead of your job (keeping the raid alive).
    Whatever works for you do not work for everyone else - I'm just providing insight as to why I personally keep stacking spirit. It's a matter of throughput, and spirit gives both better throughput, and a greater buffer for making mistakes.

  11. #51
    To confirm, your advice on progress is not to use available raids cooldowns?

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Migraine View Post
    To confirm, your advice on progress is not to use available raids cooldowns?
    Now you're just being dumb and twisting what I said, which won't work concidering what I said is not up for interpretation -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Also, forcing your dpsers to use cooldowns just because they have them is dumb on progress. If you NEED the cooldowns, obviously you make use of them. If you don't, let them worry about their job (beating the enrage) instead of your job (keeping the raid alive).
    Please, please, PLEASE tell me how what I just quoted in any way resembled "Don't use raid cooldowns on progress".

  13. #53
    The Patient Drefan's Avatar
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    Hes not saying that dpsers should never use defensive cooldowns.
    Hes saying that if they can avoid spending globals on defensive abilities they will have higher active time on the boss.
    If they will die from not using a defensive cooldown they will ofcourse use it but else they would prefer not to.
    FatSharkYes on Shattered Hand EU 14/14 HC
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  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Think I proved it in a thread a while back when discussing with dendrek, but assuming that the extra healing you get from your spirit is "usefull", then more spirit is a better throughput increase than intellect. Discussion is here -
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...astery-gt-Int?

    Spirit on every piece or reforged, and only unlocking major bonuses with gems. Healed every 25 man hc encounter now except protectors and Sha on the character now. I'm a firm believer of "if you didn't run OOM, you don't drop spirit - you throw out more big heals/rejuvs".
    One can cover a greater part of the raid by SM/WG/OoC+RG, that's why your argument doesn't work out all that well in 10's. You're simply not as reliant on rejuvenation as one is in 25's.

    How did I not prove it? It's concrete numbers, really - if X amount of spirit allows you to cast one more Rejuv, and the same amount of Int raises your healing by Y%, then all there is to it, is compare the numbers - does the rejuv or the Y% amount of healing done increase give the bigger numbers boost? If Rejuv, then spirit is better, if Y%, then Int is better.

    You can argue playstyle all you want, but this is as close as you get to actual "numbers" telling you if Spirit or Int is better. Remember, if your rejuv is overhealing, then you have to assume that your bigger heals from more int would overheal, too.
    The whole argument ignores probably the biggest factor in HoT healing: Time. It's far easier to predict incoming damage in the next 7 seconds, than it is to do so for the next 12 seconds. SM is smart, WG frontloaded, whereas a druid can only be assumed to be anticipating of at least the next z seconds.

    Also the only reasonable assumption on rejuvenations overhealing is: If you're rejuvenation is overhealing, the bigger heals from int on other spells will just increase overheal on rejuvenation. Though that probably doesn't hold for 25's, but anyway, you concluded from 25's to 10's first, so I may do the other way round just as well.

  15. #55
    You said forcing dpsers to use cooldowns was dumb, I fail to see how a boomkin using a global to innervate a healer, which might I add is quite often our pally healer, is dumb; there is also opportune moments for a spriest to hymn on certain fights.

    I have tried running with higher levels of spirit and made the decision that I would rather have the availability of higher throughput when it is needed, Tsulong day phase, Empress etc. Now I am sure you could give me a list of fights to counter my point but that is fine, but in the current tier I am happy with where my mana regen is and I don't think it is a bad thing for others to try the same and see how they feel about it.

    Why did you feel the need to call me dumb, your posting style is often aggressive to those that don't agree with you, these forums are meant to be discussion forums and you make statements that what you have said is not up for interpretation, I am not sure how that encourages healthy discussion.

    With regards to personal defensive cooldowns, which I don't think either of us was talking about, in our raid they will often be called to be used raid wide simultaneously when a large damage spike is incoming. On progress I don't see how people would be concerned about using defensive cooldowns with the exception of those that take you out of the fight for a significant, but brief, period of time such as deterance, ice block etc.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by stormgust View Post
    One can cover a greater part of the raid by SM/WG/OoC+RG, that's why your argument doesn't work out all that well in 10's. You're simply not as reliant on rejuvenation as one is in 25's.


    The whole argument ignores probably the biggest factor in HoT healing: Time. It's far easier to predict incoming damage in the next 7 seconds, than it is to do so for the next 12 seconds. SM is smart, WG frontloaded, whereas a druid can only be assumed to be anticipating of at least the next z seconds.

    Also the only reasonable assumption on rejuvenations overhealing is: If you're rejuvenation is overhealing, the bigger heals from int on other spells will just increase overheal on rejuvenation. Though that probably doesn't hold for 25's, but anyway, you concluded from 25's to 10's first, so I may do the other way round just as well.
    7 seconds is not alot, by any means. Any good healer should be able to predict incomming raid damage atleast 15 seconds ahead of time - timers make that very easy, and if you couldn't, disc priests wouldn't be nearly as powerfull as they are.
    I'm also not sure where I said anything about 10 man vs 25 man, apart from the fact that I've healed alot of the encounters in 25 man on the druid. I do 10 man alt runs with my disc priest instead, I am quite well aware of how healing works in a 10 man enviroment, and find it quite a bit easier. I actually played the druid in the 10 man untill we had to start using it for main raids due to lack of offspecs for shekzeer.

    But what I'm trying to explain is, that overhealing hurts both int and spirit, but of the two, spirit is the better choise - simply because more+smaller heals gives less overhealing than less+bigger heals. If you've got the choise between healing 10X 90K damage through 10 spells that heals for 100K per, or 110K per, then the first choise is the best one - and the one that'll provide even MORE heals, as it's the "high spirit" scenario. Likewise, considering that the difference between 500 int (because thats what my vision gives, cba popping a flask to test) is:

    With:
    18110 per rejuv tick.
    Without:
    17850 per rejuv tick.

    So per rejuvenation you throw out, 500 int will provide you with 1.3K more healing done. On the other hand, it provide me with 282 combat regen, or one rejuvenation every 153 seconds.
    One rejuv heals for a total of ~90k. As you can see, you'd need like, 70 rejuvenations thrown out every less than 3 minutes to make up for the throughput difference.

    People vastly overvalue how good intellect is - with the HUGE heals and healthpools we have now, getting 20-30K overheals on spells are less the exception than the rule, and adding another 1.5K healing on top of that won't provide any benefit, while being able to cast an extra heal might. 1.5K is what a stray tick of wild growth, healing rain, holy fire DOT, everything basicly, heals up in one tick - if 1.5K more healing on your spells was the question between a wipe or a kill, then you were incredibly lucky. Being able to cast spells for longer? More than likely a bigger benefit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Migraine View Post
    You said forcing dpsers to use cooldowns was dumb, I fail to see how a boomkin using a global to innervate a healer, which might I add is quite often our pally healer, is dumb; there is also opportune moments for a spriest to hymn on certain fights.
    I did because it is. You don't just use raid cooldowns from DPS'ers because they're there, just like DPS'ers don't just stand in fire because the healers will heal them up. I'm not counting things such as Innervate, which can be cast on the move when the alternative is refreshing a moon/sunfire dot that's already full duration, but things like Tranq and hymn that takes a while is a whole other beast. You make use of things like AG, rallying, devo aura etc first, because they don't hurt the dps.


    I have tried running with higher levels of spirit and made the decision that I would rather have the availability of higher throughput when it is needed, Tsulong day phase, Empress etc. Now I am sure you could give me a list of fights to counter my point but that is fine, but in the current tier I am happy with where my mana regen is and I don't think it is a bad thing for others to try the same and see how they feel about it.
    And I'm not trying to change your mind. but why are you allowed to tell people that "your mana is fine, try it", and I'm not allowed to say "theoretically, more spirit should provide a bigger benefit than int"?

    Why did you feel the need to call me dumb, your posting style is often aggressive to those that don't agree with you, these forums are meant to be discussion forums and you make statements that what you have said is not up for interpretation, I am not sure how that encourages healthy discussion.
    Do you really need to ask why I called you dumb? Fine, I'll make it crystal clear:
    You took something I said (using DPS defensive-cooldowns unless neccessary for progress = dumb if the healers can actually manage just fine), and turned it into something completly else. There was no room for misinterpretation like you did, because it is a personal opinion of mine that does not need to be interpretated in another way. There's no "discussion" here - if you don't NEED to use cooldowns, using them for the sake of using them is dumb. Keep them as a backup in case you need them when something goes wrong.
    You doing that, and completly disregarding half of my post, is both disrespectful and ignorant - you picked out half of my statement to try and make me sound like an idiot, instead of the whole thing, which makes perfect sense.

    With regards to personal defensive cooldowns, which I don't think either of us was talking about, in our raid they will often be called to be used raid wide simultaneously when a large damage spike is incoming. On progress I don't see how people would be concerned about using defensive cooldowns with the exception of those that take you out of the fight for a significant, but brief, period of time such as deterance, ice block etc.
    Correct, I wasn't talking about personal cooldowns. I was talking mainly about things that ties you up for a while or costs a person a major personal benefit, such as tranq/hymn. I'd also, however, have to say that you have the most disciplined raid in the history of WoW if you can use personals as a "raid cooldown", if everyone without fault reacts to use theirs when called for. It also means that your raiders are probably more prone to dying from shit that they could have survived if they didn't save their personal, though :<.

  17. #57
    @ Draco - After you have explained about Int, not sure should i gem everything to Spirit...hmmmmmm....



    @Migraine - If i heal with your "playstyle", i'll probably get kick from my guild...

  18. #58
    Ok so you ascertained how much the int increases your rejuvenation, how much does it increase the other spells that you cast in the same 3 minute window? While I still believe that int is the throughput stat of choice currentley what I have been thinking about going into 5.2 and further is that both mastery and spirit should get stronger I'm not sure we will reach the spell power threshold this expansion where the % gain from mastery over int makes 1 int worth less than 2 mastery; I am not sure where the same happens with spirit, because where spirit will always allow you to cast the same amount more per point int as a percentage gain against the amount of spell power you have will get worse the more we get.

    With regards to having the most disciplined raid in the history of wow, clearly not, otherwise we would have reached Sha quicker than what we have, we are a relatively casual guild insofar as we raid three nights a week for three hours each night we don't play ptr and we don't have raid ready alts to class stack. I just didn't think that it was unusual for a raid leader to call for the raid to pop a cd or even use a health stone; mana CDs we always use our spriests last as that does hurt his dps but we would normally get him to use it at a time that hurts him the least, boomkins innervate doesn't really hurt them and as for offtranqs unless you have a set cd rotation with them in things have generally gone to pot if you are calling for them.

    Irzerg, the only way to find out is to try it, but if I remember previous posts from yourself you are finishing fights on high mana as it is before you look toincrease the amount of mana that you finish a fight with it might be an idea to look to spend that first.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Migraine View Post
    Ok so you ascertained how much the int increases your rejuvenation, how much does it increase the other spells that you cast in the same 3 minute window? While I still believe that int is the throughput stat of choice currentley what I have been thinking about going into 5.2 and further is that both mastery and spirit should get stronger I'm not sure we will reach the spell power threshold this expansion where the % gain from mastery over int makes 1 int worth less than 2 mastery; I am not sure where the same happens with spirit, because where spirit will always allow you to cast the same amount more per point int as a percentage gain against the amount of spell power you have will get worse the more we get.

    With regards to having the most disciplined raid in the history of wow, clearly not, otherwise we would have reached Sha quicker than what we have, we are a relatively casual guild insofar as we raid three nights a week for three hours each night we don't play ptr and we don't have raid ready alts to class stack. I just didn't think that it was unusual for a raid leader to call for the raid to pop a cd or even use a health stone; mana CDs we always use our spriests last as that does hurt his dps but we would normally get him to use it at a time that hurts him the least, boomkins innervate doesn't really hurt them and as for offtranqs unless you have a set cd rotation with them in things have generally gone to pot if you are calling for them.
    There's a margin for error in "direct"-heals. You get a quite wide spread from them, my healing touch has up to a 3K spread for example (yes, I was removing jade spirit and other possible int sources through switching weapons to put it on ICD, never got the buff). Hots always seem to be the same, though, but relying on the formulas - 1 Int = 1.1 spellpower to me.

    Healing touch:
    20,130 + 186% of Spell Power
    550*1.86=1023 more per.

    Regrowth:
    Heals a friendly target for [ 10,384 + 95.8% of Spell Power ] and another [ 2,361 + 7.3% of Spell Power ] over 6 sec.
    550*0.958 = 527 + 550*0.073=40, total of 567.
    Nourish:
    Heals a friendly target for [ 6,650 + 61.4% of Spell Power ].
    550*0.614=337.7

    Swiftmend:
    Instantly heals a friendly target that has an active Rejuvenation or Regrowth effect for [ 13,966 + 129% of Spell Power ].
    550*1.29= 709.5

    So essentially, the "best" scaling one of these heals is Rejuvenation, with Healing Touch closesely following (to illustrate, rejuv is 39.2% spellpower scaling, with 5 ticks that's ~1.1K, I'm guessing I had mastery on in game when tested that made it tick for slightly more).
    You must still cast approx 70-75 of these spells in a 2.5 minute window in order to gain the same benefit of 500 int, as you do of 500 spirit. With the 5% haste buff and 3043 haste, you can squeeze about 80 healing touches out over 3 minutes (but you'd run OOM way before).

    Essentially, int should be behind in any scenario you can think of, and far less versatile than spirit. The only scenario it becomes stronger than spirit, is in situations where:
    A- You have to do burst healing, with no regards to mana consumption within a set amount of time (Tsulong).
    B- A gimmick gives you near-infinite mana if played right (Stone guards, Garajal, Sha of Fear P1, Tsulong).

    As for Int vs Spirit/Mastery, Dendrek did a post on it in this topic:
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...Mastery-gt-Int

    If his numbers are sound (and I have no reason to believe otherwise), mastery should already provide more throughput than Int does at current gear levels. Depending on if mastery is an exponentially scaling stat or not, it'll get further and further ahead of Int (someone know if mastery scales off of itself? Say you heal for 10K base, get 1% mastery, heal for 10.1K. If you get another 1% mastery, does it heal for 10.2K, or 10.21K?).
    Int is a clear linear scale, so if Mastery is exponential, then there's no way it can stay the "go-to" stat.
    Likewise, Spirit scales with BOTH int and mastery, because casting another spell takes advantage of both, meaning that spirit will (in part) take advantage of the exponential scaling of mastery, and become stronger than int, if it isn't already.

    EDIT: One thing I just realised. All the above calculations have been based off of a 1:1 Int/Spirit scenario. This is not the case. In fact, when you gain 500 int, you gain 1K spirit. Which means that essentially, all the numbers for spirit should be *doubled* (EG, 2 rejuvenations in a 150 second window instead of 1).
    Considering that, there's really not even any doubt anymore, I'd say.

    As for using personals as raidewide CD, I wouldn't think so. Usually, personal CD's are just that - personal. People use them when they themselves notice that they are in danger, or will take excessive amounts of damage (parasite on ambershaper, etc). Saving them up for a call from the leader to use them just means the raid will take more damage overall, in order to ensure their CD's are ready - and if not everyone uses a CD, then you have to use a raid CD anyway, to ensure that the one's who DON'T actually survive.
    But I guess we may have misunderstood each other - what I read you say was basicly "we have raid cooldowns that we always make sure to use, so I don't have to get more spirit because the healing is made easier due to CD usage". And in that case, whenever a CD was missing, you'd be having a hard time adjusting.


    Irzerg, the only way to find out is to try it, but if I remember previous posts from yourself you are finishing fights on high mana as it is before you look toincrease the amount of mana that you finish a fight with it might be an idea to look to spend that first.
    Pretty much this. With how the mana system and druids works now, you can ALWAYS throw out more expensive heals to take advantage of your spirit, more rejuvs, etc.
    Last edited by Dracodraco; 2013-02-18 at 12:09 PM.

  20. #60
    Draco you still ignoring probably the most important factor in favor of int vs. spirit: Time. It's not "2 rejuvenations in 150 seconds". It's "1 Rejuvenation after 75 seconds" and "1 rejuvenation another 75 seconds later". That is you're delaying the point of "no heal/no mana" by the duration of those rejuvenations. You have the benefit only after 90% of the fight are over anyway.

    So we have: For burst you already agreed that int is superior.
    For non burst/periodic damage you have time. You can accumulate the extra healing(by the int) to get a significant difference in terms of HP, i.e. not merely 1000 HP/Target. For this matter, you should also calcule the values for SM AoE heal, as well as WG (or SotF+WG), not merely the single target gains. If you want you may also accumulate the int benefits over your entire healing team and compare them to the relative gain in terms of spirit.

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