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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Deleth View Post
    That's great, but I am not. I don't want to have to look for a group just so I can do molten core rep farm solo. The problem is that the numbers directly influence our performance in relation to old raids and mobs. I really, really, really don't want to have to fight a mob from classic for several "rounds" before it drops dead. I liked being able to one shot them when doing my loremaster.
    If everything is squished in equal proportions, you would still be able to solo MC as you do now.
    If you currently do 40k DPS, and the boss has 1.5M HP It takes 37.5 Seconds to kill him.
    If we reducing every by the same factor say 100.
    You now do 400 DPS, and the boss now has 15000 HP, it still takes you 37.5 seconds to kill the boss. So nothing changes.

    I think most people could live with a change like this. You aren't losing any power, you not any weaker than you were, stuff you could do before you can still do. You can still powerhouse your way through old tiers just as you do now.

    Unfortunately, that is not what blizzard proposed when first discussing the item squish. They proposed to lower the item levels on the earlier tiers (4-6) by a smaller amount, and the later tiers (11-13) by a much, much larger amount. What this does is severely affects your power. What you can currently do now, you might not be able to do in the same capacity. If you are a Fury warrior for example you might have to now DPS in your tank gear, as you do not have the HP to live long enough to kill the boss, where as currently you can kill him in your DPS gear, or and hopefully it doesn't come to this, you now have to bring additional people as you now lack both the DPS and HP to kill the boss before they kill you.
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  2. #42
    The Lightbringer SL1200's Avatar
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    I'm against the squish; when they do it i'm leaving the game. I was really surprised at how much support they got from the community on this awful idea.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Augh View Post
    Remember pretty clearly GC explaining how the unexpected addition of hardmodes in Ulduar led to their ilvl plans for the whole expansion getting completely fucked up. Makes me wonder why do they go and do the same thing now with Thunderforged stuff.

    Which makes me think back further to the original introduction of combat ratings over flat percentages, blah blah. Some kind of squish is inevitable, it's just a matter of when, and they've been staving it off for years and years. Exponential scaling ain't a great basis for future expansion, they found that out a loooong time ago.

    Edit: Seems there's a few posts in the thread which presume people are either scared of, or unable to count numbers with superfluous strings of 0 added to the end. These seem to be posted by people unable to actually work out what the eventual problem is. That's kinda interesting. Or amusing, idk.
    I suppose they don't care about it now, as they have plans to actually introduce item squish in the future.

  4. #44
    I look forward to an item squish. What I don't get is why people think they won't be able to solo old content anymore.
    If the stats of every entity in the game were lowered by 90%, you would still be just strong compared to baby rag.
    Just calm down.
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  5. #45
    Humans adjust so quickly to things. Within the first week every single person will have adjusted to it and it will feel normal. After each expansion, all the big dps, hp changes etc.. you think "wow, hows it gonna be with that hp, or dps" 1 week after it feels like it has always been like that lol.

  6. #46
    I'm fine with the squish as long it its a blanket nerf to every entity in the game, and doesn't effect my ability to do stupid shit like 2 man cata raids.

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  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Redmage View Post
    I'm fine with the squish as long it its a blanket nerf to every entity in the game, and doesn't effect my ability to do stupid shit like 2 man cata raids.
    If it is a flat % nerf to everything at the same ratio, yes. I could stomach that very easily. I don't want to have to start bringing 1-2 extra people to something I have been able to do solo for the passed 4 years.
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  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Cernunnos View Post
    They should have done the squish long before now.
    Or made the increase in item level both during and between expansions not as severe as they currently are.

    Tier 1 (Molten Core) Item level is 66.
    Tier 2 (BWL) Item level is 76
    Tier 3 (Naxxramas) is 88
    20 item levels between tiers.

    Tier 4 is 120 (32 item levels above the last expansion)
    Tier 5 is 130
    Tier 6 (hyjal/BT) is 146/154
    Tier 6 (Sunwell) is 150/160
    30 item levels to BT gear/40 item level to sunwell gear

    Tier 7 is 200/213/219(KT/Maly)/226(KT/Maly) (40 item levels above the last expansion)
    Tier 8 is 219/226
    Tier 9 232/245/258
    Tier 10 251/258(LK)/264/277/284(LK)
    77 item levels to heroic LK

    Tier 11 is 359/372/379(sinestra) (75 item levels above the last expansion)
    Tier 12 is 378/384/397(Ragnaros)
    Tier 13 is 384/397/410/416(DW)
    51 item levels to Heroic DW

    Tier 14 is /476/483/496//503(elite)/509/516(heroic elite) (60 item levels above the last expansion)
    Tier 15 is 502/522/528(thunderforged)/535/541(thunderforged elite)
    58 item levels between tiers
    With at least 1 more tier to go.

    With the exception of one or two gaps, the gap between the last tier of the previous expansion and the first tier of the next expansion is increasing, as is the amount between tiers. We are looking at some seriously inflated stats. If they had controlled it better earlier on maybe before wrath hit, we might not be seeing such a discrepancy.

    If the jumps had been smaller each step tier 14 might have had an item level closer to than of tier 13 or even 12 397 or so instead of starting at 476 for MSV LFR.
    Don't look blindly on the numbers itself because that way you ignore the higher requirements that come with higher player level.

    Look at the percentages of increments.

    Classic T1-T3 33.3%
    T3-T4 36.4%
    BC T4-T6 33.3%
    T6-T7 25%
    WotLK T7-T10 42%
    T10-T11 26.4%
    Cataclysm T11-T13 15.9%
    T11-T14 14,4%
    MoP T14-T15 13.7%

    Looks like we're more or less on track with the itemlevels. The new thunderforged items fuck up the number a little bit as did the additional tier and hard modes back in WotLK. With that in mind we'll see itemlevels of 580 or 593 in the last tier.

    The increments are as big as always but with these huge numbers more people realize that we need a change. But the question is how exactly would the item squish work? With a flat reduction of numbers it would work for high level characters but with low level characters that only have items with like +10 or so we'll get a problem. Characters in classic would wear one and the same items from level 20 or when they acquire their first item with stats up to level 58 because the increments of itemlevel are so small that they wouldn't gain any extra stats.

    Another approach would be to alter the progression every time a new expansion is released so that we have a liniear progression with levels in old content and only an exponential progression in the new end content.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Combooticus View Post
    I look forward to the day when i can crit for over a million
    roll a warrior and you already can on fights like Elegon.

    The counter argument is why should they appease your boner for large numbers if all that really matters is your relative power to the mob itself?
    So an empty argument about number crunching (as if computers don't use scientific notation for anything) vs. wanting to brow beat players for wanting to have fun and have your character continue to grow in power?

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-06 at 05:49 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Maggibesti View Post
    you think "wow, hows it gonna be with that hp, or dps" 1 week after it feels like it has always been like that lol.
    speak for yourself. 100k dps was never how it has always been. Starting in wrath 4k dps was good output for ~213 ilvl...

  10. #50
    i look fondly to the day my death knight can walk up icecrown and one shot the lich king only to have him one shot me back and then i one shot him again. FOR SCIENCE! @_@
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  11. #51
    Herald of the Titans Theodon's Avatar
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    I was wondering if the item level upgrades from one tier to another, in combination with the disparity between the potential upgrade to playing your spec between those tiers of items, is an issue. You end up with huge upgrades on your character between tiers, and that trinket, or weapon, or off-hand, or whatever item that won't drop signifies a huge loss until you get it. If this is how it works out then the disparity between numbers is going to get really, really high.

  12. #52
    The item squish has little to do with your crits or people's phobia for computation. The item squish is far more about the game's ability to produce results. As the numbers get larger, the game either slows down or has less content per capita. There isn't much way around that. Personally, if I were still playing the game in any substantial manner, I would prefer smaller numbers then a bunch of micro functions you call an 'mmorpg'.

    Besides, the only effect this would have in notable fashion are old content being difficult to solo (unless retooling was done to offset that). And honestly, if you haven't cleared these places out for your items by now, I would be surprised.

    Just my thoughts though.

  13. #53
    Don't care either way. Obviously damage output vs boss health isn't going to change, so it doesn't really matter.
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  14. #54
    Scarab Lord Raugnaut's Avatar
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    Eh.. The main thing with an Item squish is, the reduction in power between lvls. A lvl 80 player will be stronger compared to lvl 90 player AFTER a squish, then before the squish. It would really change lower lvl pvp- a skilled player could possibly beat a mediocre player an expansion higher then them.

    There is also the fact that blizz would need to go back and change EVERY single mob in the game to compensate for the reduced ilvl. During the Cata old world revamp, blizz actually messed a few mobs up- there was lvl 30ish scorpids in Desolace that had 30k hp. Regular lvl 30 mobs, that you had to kill about 20 for thier stingers, that had 30k hp. For classes that had no healing ability, this quest was undoable if you weren't in full hierlooms. For classes that had to use mana to heal, they would run oom far before killing a single scorpid. It took until 4.3 for this to be fixed, meaning that you had a bunch of broken mobs in desolace for the longest time.

    IMO, all the reasons FOR a stat squish can be used by the same crowd going AGAINST the stat squish. Too big numbers? Use an addon. Like the big numbers? Use an addon. Also, think of ALL the developer time that is spent squishing ilvls when there is no point to squish them, computer wise, until we reach the billions in auto-attacks.

    So, most likely NOT next expansion. Maybe the one after that, but then again, maybe not.
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  15. #55
    I am all for the item squish. I was really hoping for it when MoP hit but I guess they went the other route.

  16. #56
    I am sick of hearing about how this is a "nerf" (unless they do not scale all dungeons down correctly, for example, if Molten Core becomes un-soloable then it would be a nerf, but in theory that shouldn't even happen).

    Its basically like this: imagine a scenario where people only use cm for measurement, and I am 170cm tall. But then one day they invent the metre. And I become 1.7m tall. The number is smaller, does that mean I shrunk?

    Ridiculous.

  17. #57
    Immortal Evil Inside's Avatar
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    I love big numbers. Also Blizzard actually said that they'll only do it IF people want it, also numbers can go much much higher than they currently are. Plus it would be a HUGE waste of development time, considering how much work it would take to execute properly, thus people will then complain that blizz could've used that time to make extra raids or whatever.
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  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by dingobongo View Post
    I am sick of hearing about how this is a "nerf" (unless they do not scale all dungeons down correctly, for example, if Molten Core becomes un-soloable then it would be a nerf, but in theory that shouldn't even happen).

    Its basically like this: imagine a scenario where people only use cm for measurement, and I am 170cm tall. But then one day they invent the metre. And I become 1.7m tall. The number is smaller, does that mean I shrunk?

    Ridiculous.
    That is a flat % decrease. That isn't what was put forward by blizzard.



    Is what they were talking about doing.

    Vanilla content was barely changed. maybe dropping 5-10 item levels from what it was, TBC gets reduced by 75 item levels to almost half of what it was, Wrath gears drops almost 200 item levels for what they were, and cata gear drops 250 item levels. Such changes most definitely impact your ability to perform as you do now. This isnt just changing 170 cm to 1.7 m, this is on par with changing 170 cm to 70 cm.

    This isn't a flat, constant and linear reduction they are talking about. This is changing the higher end of the spectrum by much, much larger amounts than the lower end of the spectrum.

    What you are suggesting is this

    Same amount, just displayed differently. 1000000 is the same as 1M
    Last edited by Cernunnos; 2013-02-06 at 06:13 AM.
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  19. #59
    Brewmaster Otaka's Avatar
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    high numbers are bad. Whats fun in playing the game when you cant see anything because of these millions of damages rolling out?

    I remember the times when we saw every damage we did, because it was so small.

    The thing that needs adjustment the most is health pools.

    Vanilla: 1.5k-5k, tbc: 8k-15k, wotlk: 25k-40k, cata: 100k-150k, mop: 300k-400k.
    WAY too much increase after wotlk. It wasnt needed.

    Ideal would have been:
    wotlk: 25k-40k, cata: 60-80k, mop: 100k-120k

    Would just give better world pvp competition, like in the old days. a cata player could still do significant damage to a 90.
    The curve is way too high for lowbies to be able to defend themselves anyway. There used to be 50/65/75 levels of deadzone that was kind of the area where you couldnt defend yourself even against the worst max level player.
    But now its like not even a level 89 can kill a bad 90 leveler. The damage and health difference is just too great.
    Last edited by Otaka; 2013-02-07 at 12:43 AM.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Combooticus View Post
    I love high numbers

    I look forward to the day when i can crit for over a million

    After all aint we suppose to be getting more powerful as we get to the magical 100

    Why should the numbers be squished cause some people are scared of a few extra zeros
    You can't do 1m crits, feel sorry for you =(

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