View Poll Results: Will you be switching to 25 Man in 5.2?

Voters
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  • Yes, our guild will be making the jump

    9 17.31%
  • No, our guild will not be making the jump

    37 71.15%
  • Other (explain, if not in a 25 man currently)

    6 11.54%
  1. #1

    How Many Guilds Would Like to Switch to 25 Man?

    With a few talks about how 5.2 will work with loot, I'm wondering how many 10 mans will try to make a switch to 25:
    Why or why wouldn't you consider this?
    Last edited by Beebeey; 2013-02-06 at 08:23 AM. Reason: Added a poll to this


  2. #2
    I think bigger raids are better, because there's more of a chance you'll go get to actually do something.

    It sucks when you're just allowed into a guild because you make them gold and rep and 10 buddies are allowed to Raid.

  3. #3
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    I'd love to do 25s but I dont think these changes are remotely close enough to cause 25mans to make a comeback. My guild runs 3 10 man groups and wouldn't merge for 25's simply because there is no reason to. /sadface. Split the lockouts blizzard !

  4. #4

  5. #5
    since we were really happy that we didn't have to raid 25s in order to get the best loot anymore in Cata, we won't switch back. Even if we wanted to, we're from a really small server where you'd have a lot of slackers in a 25 group since there simply are not enough *good* players left here.

    10 person raids are just so much less stressful. You don't have to recruit and manage the attendance of so many people. The raids themselves are less crowded and produce less lags/fps problems on older systems. And each player has to contribute so much more. In a 25 man group as a DD, you can more than often get away with simply doing shitloads of damage and avoid dying. In a 10 man group, chances are high that you'll HAVE to kite/coordinate something/do CC/do the "special encounter trick pony" and therefore show a much broader gaming and awareness skill. And on top of that, you can bond more easily with 9 other people than with 24.

    Let's say that even as a DD myself, I'm not very fond of people who think they are superspecialawesome if all they can do is standing there and nuking the hell out of a boss while all the healers crush the intended mechanics of the fight with massive overheal (hello Hagara HM *cough*). And 25 player raids tend to attract those players...

  6. #6
    Our guild was a server first 25 man before I quit (I was GM for 7 years). After that our guild downsized to 10 man. A lot of drama ensued when I left due to real life. Hence the downsize. My officer team couldn't fill the gap that I left to maintain control. Which is understandable if you had seen the work I did. Perhaps if I had delegated more, things would have turned out differently. But then again, the officerteam I had, was either not skilled in the things I did or didn't have the time. Hence when I was there as GM things worked so perfectly. Everyone had his own set of skills and tasks to meet those skills. I picked my officers as such aswell.

    Then they picked up on the 10 man. It was less of a hassle to maintain and most of the remaining raiders had been raiders in my guild for a long long time = less of a job to keep them happy. Most of them are adults with jobs and/or families.

    Everyone of them would love to go back to a 25 man setting. But it is just not doable right now. Especially if you are no longer serverfirst, recruitment is a bitch. Ofcourse you can fill your slots with everyone that makes an apply, but ultimately that would destroy more then create. Longstanding members would see the quality of our raids decrease to a point when they would not be happy anymore.

    So while it is a dream to raid 25 man raids for us, it would never happen.

    Just to clarify, I don't raid anymore and am no longer a GM or officer.

  7. #7
    I joined 2 guilds that tried to go 25 man in Cataclysm and 1 in Mists. All 3 of them failed due to the harder management.

    This time the situation is better but it all depends on the drop rates. If the chance to get better loot from 25 man is 3-4 times bigger then in 10 man it could work.

  8. #8
    Our guild wouldn't, as 25-men are just fps-fest + it would leave a lot of people in grief as we run 3 10-men in our guild: you need 1.5 tanks in 10-men and you need 1.5 tanks in 25-men, so 3 tanks would have to pass, similar situation with healers. Oh and dps will have to be used to benching, which is a side result of running 25-men, and benching means that person on bench just trashed 3.5$ sub-wise. And needless to remind that bench drama is one of the reasons for entropy in 25-men roster, which puts even more emphasis on constant recruitment as it is just a vicious circle.

    Oh and don't forget that raids are not what they were used to be before. Raids are no longer some place where you are having fun killing big fat monsters with friends, without much emphasis on "skills" (which are currently translated into dexterity skills and reaction times). 25-men are easy than 10-men in that kind that they have more room for mistake, but as some designer found it fun to put quite tangible enrage timer on each raid boss - you can't carry as much people as you could before. Thus demands to recruiters are quite high, recruitment pool became very small, as people aren't interested in raiding as it is now - it has it's effect even on 10-men, nevermind 25-men.

    People are looking on 25-men through prism of utopia. But we don't have 25-men problem only, the whole raiding got a lot of problems with Cata+. MSV is far farm from being equal to, e.g., Karazhan. I don't have problems with raid progression on main character, but helping one friend's guild (who are quite more casual) on alt - we have lots of problems killing the 1st boss in MSV normal and killing Garajal in alt's guild is like some impossible dream. Compare it with KZ, where even the very bad pug could clear half of it, not even mentioning laid-back guilds.

    Developers murdered all raiding as it used to be, it became a very niche activity, as people don't really like to wipe in "introductionary" raid's 1st room whole evening, and whole next evening wipe in 2nd room hopefully. And as older people don't have fast reaction times (which are all current raids are based on) and are not used to abuse of arcade mechanics in RPG game, they can forget about any raiding (except LFR) altogether. But I guess it is too late to yell Blizzard "wake up". The best they can do to save situation - it is to not start playing "10-men vs 25-men" as it is like playing with fire now and can kill whatever is left of raiding altogether.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferocity View Post
    Our guild wouldn't, as 25-men are just fps-fest
    Alright let us put the question to you in this way: Would you go 25 man-style if you had a computer that could easily handle the 25man-raidformat?

    Because saying that you won't change due to the FPS-fest it would turn into only tells me you aren't willing to upgrade your computer to that standard. So in other words, you don't find 25man appealing enough. Else you would gladly upgrade/invest in your computer.

    And I am not saying you're too poor or whatever. That isn't the issue really. It is about willing to invest. Again, you don't want to invest in it cause you don't like it. Blaming it on fps is a bad argument.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaelorian View Post
    Alright let us put the question to you in this way: Would you go 25 man-style if you had a computer that could easily handle the 25man-raidformat?
    I named it as one of the reasons (which is quite popular, and that's why I was proposing light-weight version of client before). Currently, there are too many obstacles for successful 25-men. I simply accented on this issue because we have quite a number of such people (including me) in our guild, for whom fps would be big obstacle, and upgrading PC just for 1 game is luxury in many European countries.

    But if to ignore 1 obstacle, there are still many other obstacles which make 25-men unwanted (and I described most of them) and situation is such, that developers can't repair situation with 25-men anymore no matter how hard they would try as it would bring more harm than good. So for developers it is better to leave all as is, and for 10-men raiders, who think they want to raid 25-men, it is better to simply accept that 25-men is relic of past or they can try to join few of still existing 25-men.

  11. #11
    Warchief Voyager's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaelorian View Post
    only tells me you aren't willing to upgrade your computer to that standard. So in other words, you don't find 25man appealing enough. Else you would gladly upgrade/invest in your computer.
    There's a MASSIVE difference between "they aren't willing to" and "they aren't able to". Not everyone of them can shit coins, ya know.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
    There's a MASSIVE difference between "they aren't willing to" and "they aren't able to". Not everyone of them can shit coins, ya know.
    Well you're right - perhaps I worded it a bit badly. I meant it more in the way of: You want to raid 25 man, but can't cause you cannot invest in a proper pc. Which is a fine answer by any standards.

    I just didn't gather it like that from the former post. As his post had a lot of other points that would suggest it is better (for them) to keep raiding 10.

  13. #13
    I got our raid group together with the Gm and the other officers. We put it to a vote. Thunder forged items were not enough to make people want to go 25 man. (i really, really want to go 25 man regardless, but i wont because i am not willing to lose my current raiders/friends over it.) The raiders liked how well we flow and work together and it is starting to come along a lot nicer now and they do not want to jeopardize it.

  14. #14
    Epic! Nyxxi's Avatar
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    I think the only way guilds on many servers would be able to transition back to 25 man (and in most cases slow down their progression in the process) would be by way of guild merges. Trying to recruit that many people at once will be almost impossible while still trying to keep the current raiders happy.

    Imagine you start progressing on ToT with a 10 man, getting relatively good progress. You then decide to transition back to a 25 man (I think most 10 man guilds were 25 man at the start of Cata). You have a raid team size of say 13-14 people to account for attendance in a 10 man team, you now need a team of roughly 30-32 people so you need to recruit an extra 15-17 more people.

    If you slowly recruit 1 person at a time (which is pretty much the only way it will happen without a guild merge), you will still be progressing in a 10 man raid size with an ever increasing team. Even if you manage to recruit an extra 10 people 23 is still obviously not enough for a 25 man raid and the rotations will be insane for a 10 man team. This would cause irritation among a lot of the new recruits and some of the old team members, difficulty in managing trialists (if you get lucky enough to get that amount of applicants) for the officers and eventually the team falls apart before you reach your 25 man goal.

    With a guild merge you have different problems which could break both guilds.


    My guild was a 40 man raid guild in Vanilla, 25 man in TBC, seperate 25 man and 10 man team in Wotlk, our 25 man team collapsed into a 10 man team at Al'akir/Nefarian 25 due to lesser players abandoning the raid format, two 10 man teams throughout the rest of Cata, two 10 man teams so far in MoP.

    All of us realise that going back to a 25 man team would more likely than not destroy the guild due to the above reasoning, even if most of us would love for it to be possible.
    Last edited by Nyxxi; 2013-02-06 at 03:04 PM.
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  15. #15
    Elemental Lord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barberry View Post
    With a few talks about how 5.2 will work with loot, I'm wondering how many 10 mans will try to make a switch to 25:
    Why or why wouldn't you consider this?
    One? It is difficult to see this system having any major impact.

    What it MAY do is discourage players from leaving simply for progression but unless it's an experiment or toe-in-the-water type deal, this won't affect 25s much

    EJL

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    One? It is difficult to see this system having any major impact.
    What it MAY do is discourage players from leaving simply for progression but unless it's an experiment or toe-in-the-water type deal, this won't affect 25s much
    EJL
    Interesting. I have seen people talk about it -- just wondering how many guilds would go through with it right now.
    Last edited by Beebeey; 2013-02-06 at 07:40 PM.

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