Changes to Doge/Parry Protection Spec

[Fhi]

I woulda thought before, being able to outheal the healers and outdps the dps, woulda been reason to do so already.

Well, I stopped raiding for a long time, which means I am still rusty (not that I was super to begin with), and my gear is worse than my other tank - only 481. And I have a ret spec. So I get relegated to offtanking.

This change makes it even worse to offtank, now that we completely lose GC procs.

[Ninotchka]

It would be nice to have a change that made us better AoE tanks if there were lots of AoE encounters in the raid tier, but I think the only one with tons of adds is Horridon. Looks like it's a bad idea to hold too many adds on Dark Animus, and you won't be keeping the council fight bunched up.

Though we haven't seen everything yet, and I probably forgot something.

[MerinPally]

Though we haven't seen everything yet, and I probably forgot something.

5mans where high vengeance isn't as easy to get. In raids AOE is pretty ok due to it but not in 5mans it isn't (well... not so much).

[Malthanis]

I'm not sure I buy the "better AoE tanks" angle. Maybe if we got an AoE finisher. It still feels weird to just spam ShotR all the time, when I know that I'd be surviving just fine without the buff up.

[Firefly33]

I am kinda bummed at how boring our seals are atm. Some sort of seal swapping would be nice.

Buffing SoT/SoR could fix our AoE situation.

[Nelrock]

Isn't this going to push people even further away from Dodge?

You have DR. Attacks that can't be dodged. Periods of tanking, where you aren't the target, thus no dodging.

Least with haste, you have the benefits it brings to HP generation and DPS.

[MerinPally]

Isn't this going to push people even further away from Dodge?

You have DR. Attacks that can't be dodged. Periods of tanking, where you aren't the target, thus no dodging.

Least with haste, you have the benefits it brings to HP generation and DPS.

Why would it push us further away? That makes no sense. They make no change to anything else and make it so that when we dodge or parry we have a chance for a nice proc. Why would that reduce the value of dodge/parry? First it was just taking no damage, now it's that and gaining holy power. That's a buff not a nerf. As said before in this thread, Haste is still a LOT better and we're not going to start stacking dodge or parry any time soon, but what this change does do is make the gap smaller between Dodge/Parry and the stat above on the priority, which is Mastery.

On bosses, all attacks that we can't dodge are also unparryable - they have to be or Bears would be fucked over for those fights as soon as their dodge chance wasn't equal to everyone elses Parry+Dodge. Same goes for balancing other tanks against DK's.

I might be missing the completely obvious though so please point out if I am D:

[Firefly33]

I wonder how much dps gain this will bring. Maybe it is prio dodge/parry above crit now. not sure.

Will have to check numbers when this get live.

[Rivin]

I wonder how much dps gain this will bring. Maybe it is prio dodge/parry above crit now. not sure.

Will have to check numbers when this get live.

On a single target, probably very little change. The numbers I've seen on the official forums (which may or may not be accurate) suggest that it'll have roughly the same number of procs per minute on a single target as it does now. Of course, that means it'll proc more often on anything more than a single target. On the other hand, it won't proc at all if you're not being attacked. It's going to be very dependent on the fight.

[Nelrock]

Why would it push us further away? That makes no sense. They make no change to anything else and make it so that when we dodge or parry we have a chance for a nice proc. Why would that reduce the value of dodge/parry? First it was just taking no damage, now it's that and gaining holy power. That's a buff not a nerf. As said before in this thread, Haste is still a LOT better and we're not going to start stacking dodge or parry any time soon, but what this change does do is make the gap smaller between Dodge/Parry and the stat above on the priority, which is Mastery.

On bosses, all attacks that we can't dodge are also unparryable - they have to be or Bears would be fucked over for those fights as soon as their dodge chance wasn't equal to everyone elses Parry+Dodge. Same goes for balancing other tanks against DK's.

I might be missing the completely obvious though so please point out if I am D:

No...it's more likely I am...but I was thinking...
With DR...many abilities/spells not being dodgeable...and quite a few fights with tank swapping and not being the primary...30% seems kinda low considering all the situations where you're not dodging...compared, to say, the benefits of just going with haste.
Realize trash and large packs...30% could prove significant...but was thinking more in terms of say a single boss fight.

[MerinPally]

No...it's more likely I am...but I was thinking...
With DR...many abilities/spells not being dodgeable...and quite a few fights with tank swapping and not being the primary...30% seems kinda low considering all the situations where you're not dodging...compared, to say, the benefits of just going with haste.
Realize trash and large packs...30% could prove significant...but was thinking more in terms of say a single boss fight.

You keep saying the bolded bit... is it really that many? I really don't remember there being all that many and granted my raid experience is extremely limited in MOP (Done a clear of MSV and the first 4 of HoF, then all LFR) and I really don't remember even having to consider or worry about this. And DR is nowhere near as much of a problem as it used to be seeing as they raised the caps from 63.5% to 225% was it? Can't remember the exact % but I think it's around those, so diminishing returns hit us far far less. The tank swapping bit is true but... meh, just have to wait and see really.

[Firefly33]

On a single target, probably very little change. The numbers I've seen on the official forums (which may or may not be accurate) suggest that it'll have roughly the same number of procs per minute on a single target as it does now. Of course, that means it'll proc more often on anything more than a single target. On the other hand, it won't proc at all if you're not being attacked. It's going to be very dependent on the fight.

Well, if it will proc more or less is irrelevent (in this situation). What is interesting is just how much more dps will say 500 points of dodge/parry bring in comparison to other stats.

Though yeah, will differ a lot from fight to fight basis.

[rawhammer]

My 2 coppers -I think the key thing is whether or not it has an ICD. Wont matter for single boss fights ofc - but for e.g. wind bag it will make such a huge mong goose difference.
EDIT: so drunk - blame the missus and her wiley ways!

[MerinPally]

a huge mong goose

I've always preferred the Slow Loris. It's the size of a smallish teddy.

[Fhi]

Ahem. Dodge, parry.

~Fhi

[Mindark]

On the other hand, it won't proc at all if you're not being attacked. It's going to be very dependent on the fight.

0 procs on Garalon fights! HoPo generation would be very strict to catch all his attacks after that change.

And absolutely 0 procs while offtanking any other boss (not adds).

[MrKnubbles]

My opinion is that our damage while tanking is going to sky rocket while our damage from non tanking will drop slightly.

[Firefly33]

My opinion is that our damage while tanking is going to sky rocket while our damage from non tanking will drop slightly.

Skyrocket? Won't be a big difference.

[velspine]

Paladin
- We are going to try Grand Crusader proc'd by CS, HotR and dodge and parry (at lower chances for each).
- We are going to buff Seal of Justice and Seal of Righteousness damage. Neither of these Seals is seeing enough use. Justice was always intended to be a strong PvP Seal, and it just isn't right now. We haven't solidified numbers yet - I'm just sharing our intent.

[Senen]

Theck is likely to show that the value of avoidance and mastery has increased while the value of haste has stayed around the same. The change will be about 10k dps loss on single target fights, DPS will stay around the same on 3 target fights, and increase significantly when tanking more than three mobs.

Whut?
I ran some simulations and I don't see how you could lose 10k dps in singe target fights.
Note that foor all my computations I considered a swing timer of 2s, since it's the swing of almost all the boss of the current tier iirc (except for Gara'jal and Sha of Fear.) I don't know if it makes sense in aoe environment, never looked at the swing timer of Mel'jarak adds or Empress adds.
Also, I did my computations using Fraggoji's armory as a sample. I didn't remember the parry/dodge formula based on ratings and too lazy to look it up, so I just ran my tests for a haste build, I should run them again with a parry/dodge build to see how good this stats will be. For now, my purpose is only to state what is going to change if you're in haste optimization.

* In a full haste optimization (I took Fraggoji's armory as sample) you'll lose about 1.5 proc/min in single target fight. So, if you stay in haste optimization, you will barely lose dps, definitely not 10k dps (or I've missed something.)

* In aoe fights, it will be amazing. Against 6 enemys, you'll have a gain of 6 proc/min. You have ~20% chance of proc between each gcd (depends both on your avoidance and your haste), as a reminder you currently have 20% chance of proc every three gcd. Expect a lot of AS spamming.
Also, the average cd of AS will be barely longer than those of Judgement (again, depends on your haste/avoidance), but AS hits three targets and you don't want to waste a proc. I expect a AS>J priority order on multitargets fights.

* The monotarget gameplay will be more tolerant. Right now, it's basically "CS - J - xx - CS - xx - J - CS - xx - xx", if your second CS proc you need to AS instantly (because you don't want to delay Judgment) so that you won't waste a proc if the third CS proc, and that can be a bit difficult with some latency. Now, delaying AS will be a smaller mistake.

I may be wrong (as I said, I didn't run any simulation with an avoidance optimization) but I can imagine an optimization "haste > avoidance" for single-target fight and "avoidance > haste" for multi-target fights. Overall, haste is slightly nerfed but avoidance is really boosted only in multi-target situations.

---------- Post added 2013-02-07 at 09:55 AM ----------

Holy cow, I'm stupid!
As I said, I used a swing timer of 2s for both single-target and multiple-target situations but I didn't realize I only considered level 93 enemies (applied -9% avoidance everywhere). So... actually you win more proc/minutes in multi-targets fights (~7.5), the chances of proc between two gcd are higher (20%-25%) and the average cd of AS is shorter (comparable with those of Judgement, may even be shorter).