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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by RicardoZ View Post
    So? That doesn't make up for 8 straight years of blatant Horde love in lore. You can knock off a couple in Wrath maybe, but other than that the creative team of this game has been all Horde all the time.

    And it doesn't change the fact that the story is revolving around the Horde, yet again. Sure Wrynn is the one to point the sword and say charge, but it's still a totally Horde driven story, all about the warchief, all about yet another Orc.
    thats just bollocks. vanilla favored alliance massivly, as did wrath. bc and cata were the only ones that favored horde more. its equal.
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  2. #42
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Storylines ebb and flow. If every single action in the storyline was met by an exactly opposite reaction to keep both sides happy it would be the most boring story imaginable since nothing significant would ever happen.

    As to your personal perceptions based on what you've experienced with regard to one set of quests, gear and lore being better written than another, that's all subjective. There's plenty of evidence around that you have your own view of things that's a bit askew from a lot of other people. So best to just say that it's an opinion and leave it at that.

    Most people who raise the issue of Blizzard factional favoritism in a vehement way are either just stirring stuff up or totally ignorant of the rules of storytelling.
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  3. #43
    Herald of the Titans RicardoZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    thats just bollocks. vanilla favored alliance massivly, as did wrath. bc and cata were the only ones that favored horde more. its equal.
    Vanilla didn't really favor anybody. And the degree to which Wrath favored Alliance is nothing compared to absolute worship the Horde got in Cata. The Alliance would need another 10 Wraths to get even close to that.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylock View Post
    Is the obvious Horde favoritism blizzard has shown for years finally starting to die down?
    For years? Come on, take a serious look at vanilla. The Alliance had far more leveling zones than the Horde, and Stormwind was an actual living city unlike the deserted Orgrimmar. Heck, should I remind you that the Winterspring Frostsabers were already in vanilla while the Un'goro Raptors (which should have been in vanilla!) were released along with Cataclysm?

    Burning Crusade was 50/50

    WotLK obviously favored Alliance, since pretty much all lore centered around the Alliance: Tirion, Arthas, Muradin, Frost Dwarves, Vrykul, Mechgnomes, you name it.

    Then came Cataclysm, yes this expansion did favor the Horde. I agree with you on that, but don't make it sound like all the previous also favored the Horde because the facts are heavily against you.

    Mists of Pandaria seems to slightly favor the Alliance to compensate for Cataclysm, but not by much.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Hardstyler01 View Post
    For years? Come on, take a serious look at vanilla. The Alliance had far more leveling zones than the Horde, and Stormwind was an actual living city unlike the deserted Orgrimmar. Heck, should I remind you that the Winterspring Frostsabers were already in vanilla while the Un'goro Raptors (which should have been in vanilla!) were released along with Cataclysm?

    Burning Crusade was 50/50

    WotLK obviously favored Alliance, since pretty much all lore centered around the Alliance: Tirion, Arthas, Muradin, Frost Dwarves, Vrykul, Mechgnomes, you name it.

    Then came Cataclysm, yes this expansion did favor the Horde. I agree with you on that, but don't make it sound like all the previous also favored the Horde because the facts are heavily against you.

    Mists of Pandaria seems to slightly favor the Alliance to compensate for Cataclysm, but not by much.
    exactly not to mention things like the awesome onyxia chain. and in wrath the horde storyline pretty much became nonexistant after wrathgate
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  6. #46
    I am Murloc! Scummer's Avatar
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    I swear these type of threads leave me with a bad taste when I say "bias".

  7. #47
    The Insane Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    Everything you've listed as supposedly making the Horde better is completely subjective.



    I'd buy that if WC2 didn't exist. Blizzard and Metzen can and have written good Alliance story. The current story is good, the Horde's is just better but not because it is inherently better and is better because of the reasons I listed above. It is all to do with execution.
    The WC2 and before argument doesn't work in this anymore, and here is why. Back then, blizzard had no two and throw between them, they simply had the horde labeled as the bad guys and the alliance as the good guys. Its from this that the alliance believe themselves still as the good guys in everything they do.

    But the story moved on, there is no 'Our side are the good guys you guys are are the baddies' anymore in warcraft. Its simply now a case of both side being equal and opposite to one another. Neither horde or alliance will ever beat each other, and whatever one side does to the other, it will always be looked at subjectively now.

    So, do alliance still think themselves the good guys and should win out absolutely? I dare say many do them do, because of the past rhetoric.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by RicardoZ View Post
    8 straight years of blatant Horde love in lore.
    I just laughed out loud, and my coworkers gave me evil glares.

    8 years of favoritism? You're silly. Being nice to an Orc for 2 years really messed with your head, hasn't it?
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  9. #49
    The Insane Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    Thats how YOU see the alliance. i see the alliance like blizzard sees the alliance. A Wall, a unified shielding wall, mighty strong and unbreakable. where you see the symbol as a cat, i see it as the falcon and the lion, the lion mighty strong, proud arrogant and prideful but strong, and the falcon cold and unnerving flying high above its enemies and swooping in at the perfect moment to swoop them up and devour them.

    you say how is for the alliance cooler than for the horde? i say FOR BLOOD AND HONOR sounds cooler than blood and thunder.

    you say its harder to make the alliance look cool, i say its much easier.
    No, it really isn't. And this isn't bias. The fact the alliance is pitted against a faction who has black metallic spikes from there buildings, has the color red as its main color, uses wolves and kodos for mounts instead of ponies and cats, it really is just a case the horde has more 'cooler' elements to it.

    The horde is savage, wild and holds honor and aggression to its name. The alliance is prideful, arrogant and firm. And all I'm saying is it is so much easier to make one of these appear cooler and more badass then the other, the other requiring more effort to do so.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-06 at 09:19 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Veyne View Post
    I just laughed out loud, and my coworkers gave me evil glares.

    8 years of favoritism? You're silly. Being nice to an Orc for 2 years really messed with your head, hasn't it?
    And now we got super duper prince Anduin running around pandaria doing goodie good things.

  10. #50
    I am Murloc! Scummer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    The WC2 and before argument doesn't work in this anymore, and here is why. Back then, blizzard had no two and throw between them, they simply had the horde labeled as the bad guys and the alliance as the good guys. Its from this that the alliance believe themselves still as the good guys in everything they do.

    But the story moved on, there is no 'Our side are the good guys you guys are are the baddies' anymore in warcraft. Its simply now a case of both side being equal and opposite to one another. Neither horde or alliance will ever beat each other, and whatever one side does to the other, it will always be looked at subjectively now.

    So, do alliance still think themselves the good guys and should win out absolutely? I dare say many do them do, because of the past rhetoric.
    I don't actually know what anything you said really proved. That because the Horde is no longer evil the Alliance simply cannot have a good story? Your point about the narrative of good vs evil is also largely irrelevant as there is always an evil to fight - it's just not the Horde. Except in MoP it currently is. The "Evil" simply shifted. Wrath for example had a good Alliance narrative.

    "So in a way, I want even the gameplay to indicate that Varian is fighting a very different kind of war than Garrosh, remembering what the Alliance is supposed to be about. This lawful good overdrive. We're supposed to be superheroes, you know?"

    By Metzen's own words the Alliance is the greater force of good between the two on the moral horizon scope. To call the Alliance anything but the good guys really is to ignore Metzen's own description of the Alliance. I'm not saying that the Alliance don't haver their bad eggs or that the Horde are bad or evil at their core.
    Last edited by Scummer; 2013-02-06 at 09:38 PM.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylock View Post
    It seems that all the lore, and quests and gear revolving around Alliance have been much better written
    You're joking right? I mean really? Varian knows best (and the other leaders are dumb as day old dook) is better writing than Vol'jin and the Blood Elves coming into their own as powerful and strong leaders backed by principle???

    and the gear has been better modeled for Alliance side.
    Intro gear was T9/ToCr reskins. Was made in Wrath and entirely subjective.

    The intro to panda land is a much better story line than the intro on horde side imho.
    "Rescue my son" is only a morally higher ground than "paint this new continent red".

    Is the obvious Horde favoritism blizzard has shown for years finally starting to die down?
    No, Jaylock it's not.

  12. #52
    I wouldn't say favor as much as its now the alliances turn to have some character building and gains in the war. Cata had alot of horde centered lore in terms of how the war was going and thrall. But its not like its ever been highly unbalanced. The horde are getting some nice lore on some of their leaders that had in the past little to none. I also hear people say "Well the alliance has their guy as the new lich king" Well thrall is the defacto aspect of the earth so we got our love as well.

  13. #53
    The Insane Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    I don't actually know what anything you said really proved. That because the Horde is no longer evil the Alliance simply cannot have a good story? Your point about the narrative of good vs evil is also largely irrelevant as there is always an evil to fight - it's just not the Horde. Except in MoP it currently is. The "Evil" simply shifted. Wrath for example had a good Alliance narrative.

    "So in a way, I want even the gameplay to indicate that Varian is fighting a very different kind of war than Garrosh, remembering what the Alliance is supposed to be about. This lawful good overdrive. We're supposed to be superheroes, you know?"

    By Metzen's own words the Alliance is the greater force of good between the two on the moral horizon scope. To call the Alliance anything but the good guys really is to ignore Metzen's own description of the Alliance. I'm not saying that the Alliance don't haver their bad eggs or that the Horde are bad or evil at their core.
    You've just proved my point and validated it. You believe the alliance are the ultimate good in the story. You also interpreted metzens words to suit your own belief. Metzen was saying that Varian had forgotten what was more important and needing to get his shit sorted, you however saw it as if he was saying the alliance must be the lawful good and so the horde is bad.

    See, your not looking at the larger picture, because however you want to intrpret it, there is no lawful good in the kind of war happening right now, the only good in it comes from those thinking outside the war itself.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    The horde is red, red is aggressive, it makes you think of things like rage and blood such.
    Alliance is blue, blue makes you think of sea and sky and buttercups and rainbows.
    Red is rage, Blue is Nobility
    Horde has aggressive races with savage undertones living in harsh wastelands and in the wilds.
    Alliance live in castles and tree houses.
    horde races live in rotting hovels and filthy huts, Alliance live in cities. It's comparing uncivilised versus civilised, with a few cross overs.
    The alliance has a cat for its symbol.
    The horde has a wolf.
    Sorry it's not a "cat" it's a Lion. A single lion could annihilate an entire pack of sniveling wolves and send them scattering tails between their legs with a ferocious roar in the real world. And lions operate in groups as well. A lion is a symbol of strength far greater than anything a stinking wolf could represent yet you call it a "cat". And there in lies the problem, along with terribad writing.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    A single lion could annihilate an entire pack of sniveling wolves and send them scattering tails between their legs with a ferocious roar in the real world.
    Actually, a single lion couldn't. Lions are stalkers, and they attack in short bursts. In fact, Lions have terrible endurance. After the first attack, which I'll grant the Lion for stealth, the rest of the wolf pack would be aware of its presence. The Lion would run out of energy to defend against the a whole pack of wolves pretty quickly.

    One on one, the fight would likely go to the lion. But your claim of a single lion taking out a wolf pack was just plain silly.
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  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Veyne View Post
    Actually, a single lion couldn't. Lions are stalkers, and they attack in short bursts. In fact, Lions have terrible endurance. After the first attack, which I'll grant the Lion for stealth, the rest of the wolf pack would be aware of its presence. The Lion would run out of energy to defend against the a whole pack of wolves pretty quickly.
    Actually a single lion could on account of a single lion can and has defended against packs of HYENAS which are far bigger, stronger, and nastier than any wolf could ever hope to be. Lions don't need endurance, they could literally smash a wolf in half with one swipe

    One on one, the fight would likely go to the lion. But your claim of a single lion taking out a wolf pack was just plain silly.
    Not really. You watch a nature film and see a pack of wolves take down a buffalo you don't realise that 10+ other times, an individual buffalo drove them off and probably killed one goring it or stomping on it. Wolves aren't successful hunters and haven't any power at an individual level, unlike a 500+ lb lion -.-

  17. #57
    I am Murloc! Scummer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    You've just proved my point and validated it. You believe the alliance are the ultimate good in the story. You also interpreted metzens words to suit your own belief. Metzen was saying that Varian had forgotten what was more important and needing to get his shit sorted, you however saw it as if he was saying the alliance must be the lawful good and so the horde is bad.

    See, your not looking at the larger picture, because however you want to intrpret it, there is no lawful good in the kind of war happening right now, the only good in it comes from those thinking outside the war itself.
    You've misinterpreted what I said and on top of that completely ignored my closing points.
    The Alliance are not and cannot be "the ultimate good" when they have their own problems in them. They are the "gooder" (that's a word now) of the two and that's how it's always been, the Alliance are the light grey and the Horde the dark grey which you yourself referenced a page ago when you described the differences between the two in your own interpretation.
    There is a reason I said "moral horizon scope" as we're that atm the Alliances morals are more resolute compared to the current Horde's.

    Do I have to quote myself? "I'm not saying that the Alliance don't haver their bad eggs or that the Horde are bad or evil at their core.".
    So like I said at thei core the Horde is good, but currently they are not a force of good.

    How can you in the current story not see the Alliance as the good guy's and the Horde as the bad guys? The whole Horde narrative is that Garrosh has made them the bad guys and that certain members and leaders don't like that.

    Btw the Metzen quote is about both Varian and the Alliance "remembering what the Alliance is supposed to be about" and constant use of "we" not "he". Atm the two are also mutual.
    Last edited by Scummer; 2013-02-06 at 10:31 PM.

  18. #58
    Blizzard does not favor one faction over the other, and never has. Horde tends to be more interesting at least in my opinion, but that is because of the nature of the faction, not the treatment they get from Blizzard.

  19. #59
    Mechagnome Lezarin's Avatar
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    the only thing i can see blizzard favouring is alliance airships .....so far in the last what 3 expansions every horde airship you have gotten onto has either crashed blew up gotten attacked or otherwise gone down in a fistful of flaming death .

    So the way i se this its blizzards way of promoting alliance airways over hordes harrasers, so i,m going to contact the EU fair trade court and get this sorted sue blizzard for promoting unfair compatition in azeroths airways .

    Ok can i remove my tinfoil hat now please please its starting to chaff my buttocks
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  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    I don't actually know what anything you said really proved. That because the Horde is no longer evil the Alliance simply cannot have a good story? Your point about the narrative of good vs evil is also largely irrelevant as there is always an evil to fight - it's just not the Horde. Except in MoP it currently is. The "Evil" simply shifted. Wrath for example had a good Alliance narrative.

    "So in a way, I want even the gameplay to indicate that Varian is fighting a very different kind of war than Garrosh, remembering what the Alliance is supposed to be about. This lawful good overdrive. We're supposed to be superheroes, you know?"

    By Metzen's own words the Alliance is the greater force of good between the two on the moral horizon scope. To call the Alliance anything but the good guys really is to ignore Metzen's own description of the Alliance. I'm not saying that the Alliance don't haver their bad eggs or that the Horde are bad or evil at their core.
    Well, it's lawful good versus chaotic good

    Evil factions are more the Cult of the Damned, the Scourge, Burning Legion, Deathwing and stuff like that.

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