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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Roggles View Post
    Why are we comparing real life lions vs wolves? The orc wolf/worg is fucking huge.
    I have no clue, really. Someone made a silly claim about real lions and wolves, I was a little drunk, and I had to debunk it.

    But relating to the game, the Wolf as a symbol for the Horde has nothing to do with it's prowess as a predator, neither does the Lion for the Alliance.

    As a symbol, the Lion stands tall and proud, and the rest of the animals in their habitat have a healthy respect for them. Lions are a symbol of pride and reverence.

    As a symbol, the Wolf has fierce and unchallenged loyalty, and this is what the Horde is all about. While the Alliance is mostly united against the Horde, the Horde is united because of a since of brotherhood and loyalty amongst its main races, though other races have since joined out of convenience.

    Symbolically, the Lion and the Wolf represent very different things, and to argue which faction is better based off of which faction's symbolic animal would beat the other in a fight is ridiculous.

  2. #82
    I love these threads. For most of cata it was "obvious" that blizz favored the horde. This continued into the pre-mists destruction of Theramore. Now, with garrosh acting as a true leader of the horde clearly the Alliance are blizz's favorites. The truth is Blizzard has employees at all levels that play both factions, the perceived favoritism is just how individuals view the overall story.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Fayolynn View Post
    Tirion however 100% is not Alliance lore. That isn't to say its Horde lore either. Being part of the Alliance in the past does not make his story Alliance lore now. With that Argument, every thing Thrall does becomes Alliance lore even when it doesn't involve the Alliance at all due to him being an there slave in the past. Or even that the Blood Elves, who I think we can agree is entirely a Horde faction now, are Alliance lore due to them coming from the High Elves prior to WoW. If you want to take this a step further than everything Night Elves could possibly be Horde lore due to the fact that they may have come from Trolls. Using the past to classify lore can get ridiculous pretty quickly.

    So with his connection to the Alliance in the past not making him Alliance now what makes Tirion Alliance Lore? How exactly do Tirion's actions advance the Alliance story?
    So why did everyone complain about Thrall's story in Cataclysm as Horde lore when he wasn't part of the Horde anymore?

  4. #84
    "Does Blizzard Favor Alliance Now?"

    Of course not. Blizzard favor Alliance AGAIN is more like it. All the fuzz about Horde favoritism was because Alliance got so used to have everything that they couldn't withstand to be treated EQUALLY. Biased point of view make any equality look biased too. But no biggie. Horde players are known to be tough enough to live without Blizzard babysitting them. Let Alliance demand their pacifiers.

  5. #85
    Regardless of which blizz favours, your never see me going ally!

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Veyne View Post
    So why did everyone complain about Thrall's story in Cataclysm as Horde lore when he wasn't part of the Horde anymore?
    Because there is a very distict difference a character who wasn't ever in the Alliance during the time frame of WoW, who will not be returning to the Alliance, who treats both factions equally well, whose every action is nuetral and the character who was the main leader of a faction, who was going to return to their faction once the expansion was over, who openly talks about wanting to destroy a faction, who only was "neutral" to make both factions see how super awesome and badass he was.

    Comparing Tirion and Thrall is rediculous.

  7. #87
    Scarab Lord Maxilian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    ust wait till me'dan shows up. THEN THE TRUE GREEN JESUS SHALL APPEAR @_@
    Ewwwww..... i hope he dies..., please KILL HIM! or let him be controlled by sargeras... and then.... KILL HIM!

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-07 at 08:23 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Fayolynn View Post
    Because there is a very distict difference a character who wasn't ever in the Alliance during the time frame of WoW, who will not be returning to the Alliance, who treats both factions equally well, whose every action is nuetral and the character who was the main leader of a faction, who was going to return to their faction once the expansion was over, who openly talks about wanting to destroy a faction, who only was "neutral" to make both factions see how super awesome and badass he was.

    Comparing Tirion and Thrall is rediculous.
    even so... Tirion did not have as much "time in the spotlight" as Thrall had, also Thrall was more "Horde" than neutral, Tirion was neutral for a long time...
    Last edited by Maxilian; 2013-02-07 at 02:23 PM.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by maxilian View Post
    Ewwwww..... i hope he dies..., please KILL HIM! or let him be controlled by sargeras... and then.... KILL HIM!
    You know what happens after 3 days, when you Kill Thrall, right? Millennia of Thrallism.

  9. #89
    So I ask again, other than being Alliance in the past what makes Tirion Alliance lore?

  10. #90
    I think the horde was only powerful and righteous at the end of Warcraft 3, in the sense that in time they could become a grand nation like the alliance, instead of an immature collaboration between oppressed and/or savage races that were rather weak on their own. Everything that goes in the horde's "favor" from this point on is basically Sylvanas or Garrosh doing unspeakable things. Thrall doesn't really speak for the horde after he put Garrosh in charge, so I don't see why the "green Jesus" lore benefits the horde any more than the alliance. Tirion Fordring practically killed the lich king himself, but his actions aren't considered to be only in the alliance's favor.

    I know the alliance has destroyed Theramore and turned Jaina evil, but the equal reaction wouldn't be invading Orgrimmar. That's just too insulting for the horde.
    "Not only are we evil cowards, we are also incapable of solving our problems". It's bad enough that Wrynn could roam inside Undercity after the Wrathgate incident.

    Let thrall help the other horde race leaders solve the Garrosh issue themselves, and if the alliance has to get some revenge because of Theramore, let them crush the forsaken in the plaguelands or silverpine forest.
    Mother pus bucket!

  11. #91
    Warchief Orby's Avatar
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    Blizz favors the Burning Legion, you'll see
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  12. #92
    The Lightbringer Skytotem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fayolynn View Post
    So I ask again, other than being Alliance in the past what makes Tirion Alliance lore?
    His aesthetics. Aging human knight with "light" themes that kills humanities fallen prince is far more relevant to the Alliance than the Horde because they ripped Ner'zhul out of the picture and never even addressed that the Lich King USED to be ner'zhul :\



    Being neutral does not automatically that the lore is equally relevant to both sides. That's like saying Malfurion is the same to Orc players as he is to Night elf ones.
    Twas brillig

  13. #93
    Bloodsail Admiral hiragana's Avatar
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    They always have. Just compare stormwind and ironforge to any other city in the entire game.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Fayolynn View Post
    Who cherry picked arguments to make blizzard seem pro Horde? I'm just confused because you quoted my rebuttal to someone who was making the claim that Wrath was completely about the Alliance. Nowhere did I say they were pro Horde. :-P
    I see that now, but you're making exactly the same type of arguments someone would make if they were trying to say it was Horde favored. I think Blizzard's job is to give us content, not give us check marks for our faction's epeen list. Tirion is content. Possibly neutral, possibly Alliance, but you can't cross him off because he doesn't completely satisfy your qualifications.

    Anywho, we both agree that there is sufficient content.
    Your comments are duly noted and ignored.
    I punch a hobo every time someone says 'it's not a rotation it's a priority list lol'.

  15. #95
    Metzen plays favorites.

    And the lead story designer playing favorites is obviously going to make one wreck of a story.

    And so we have the absolutely terrible story telling in WoW that shits all over Warcraft III lore.
    Quote Originally Posted by High Overlord Saurfang
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  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    His aesthetics. Aging human knight with "light" themes that kills humanities fallen prince is far more relevant to the Alliance than the Horde because they ripped Ner'zhul out of the picture and never even addressed that the Lich King USED to be ner'zhul :\

    Being neutral does not automatically that the lore is equally relevant to both sides. That's like saying Malfurion is the same to Orc players as he is to Night elf ones.
    Being human makes it Alliance lore? So the Blood sail are Alliance lore? Booty Bay and the other neutral goblin towns are now Horde lore? You can't just take race and equate that to whose lore something centers on.

    You are right, neutrality does not automatically make lore relevant to both sides. You actually have to look at the lore itself to determine that.

    As far as Malfurion goes, that was badly handled. There was no reason not to give the Horde a different druid NPC to work with during Firelands. That being said Thrall was handled even worse. Malfurion was involved in one content patch, Thrall was in every major moment of the expansion. Malfurion didn't express any hate for the Horde players (that I can remember), Thrall was still very much rawr Horde rocks the Alliance needs to die.


    Quote Originally Posted by Screwtape View Post
    I see that now, but you're making exactly the same type of arguments someone would make if they were trying to say it was Horde favored. I think Blizzard's job is to give us content, not give us check marks for our faction's epeen list. Tirion is content. Possibly neutral, possibly Alliance, but you can't cross him off because he doesn't completely satisfy your qualifications.

    Anywho, we both agree that there is sufficient content.
    I think you were waaaay reading into my comment to see what you wanted. I'm just making the case that Wrath, if the expansion did favor Alliance, is nowhere near as bad as people make it out to be. if anything I was anti-cherry picking the ZOMG IT WAS ALL ABOUT ALLIANCE arguments. :-)

    But yes, I agree their is sufficient content for both factions, at least in Wrath.

  17. #97
    Obviously Blizzard favors whatever faction, race, class you are not playing. That's how this works.

  18. #98
    The Lightbringer Skytotem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fayolynn View Post
    Being human makes it Alliance lore? So the Blood sail are Alliance lore? Booty Bay and the other neutral goblin towns are now Horde lore? You can't just take race and equate that to whose lore something centers on.

    You are right, neutrality does not automatically make lore relevant to both sides. You actually have to look at the lore itself to determine that.

    As far as Malfurion goes, that was badly handled. There was no reason not to give the Horde a different druid NPC to work with during Firelands. That being said Thrall was handled even worse. Malfurion was involved in one content patch, Thrall was in every major moment of the expansion. Malfurion didn't express any hate for the Horde players (that I can remember), Thrall was still very much rawr Horde rocks the Alliance needs to die.

    You're trying to make this binary when it's a sliding scale (Consequentially yeah the bloodsail would probably be alliance lore if their old rpg stuff were canon, given that they're run by a human noble that was actually pretty racist, and he let an alliance town fall to the scourge as he went rogue). Goblins not so much

    And I -am- looking at the Lore, Tirion having a few nice words to the Horde doesn't make him the same to them. He was the leader of an alliance settlement prior to WC3 and one of the original paladins. One of his lines in his book is that he will be LOYAL TO THE ALLIANCE UNTIL HIS DYING DAY.
    Twas brillig

  19. #99
    Mechagnome Requiemcliff's Avatar
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    Just a bit of thoughts on my end I suppose. Not really a which side is favored, but kinda how my experience feels about the expansion and ideas.

    Basically, it felt to me since...Wrath I believe, that the Alliance and Horde began to really flesh out their particular sides in styles. With Varians return and the rise to power of Garrosh.

    During Wrath, the Alliance and Horde were still for the most part on an uneasy truce, the sides were not at a full out war, and were for the most part cooperating on each others side.

    It wasn't until Wrathgate with the apparent deaths of Saurfangs son and Bolvar. Both sides lost somebody fairly big to their faction, a close friend or a child of a high ranking officer, and then of course, the combined assault on the Undercity, where both sides came to forms of blows, and, the Forsaken were seen as mistrusted. The Alliance assumed the Forsaken were under some orders of the Horde, and thus both sides began to splinter from their established semi-alliance.

    It is brought to a head in Icecrown and as the expansion progressed, with fighting between the Horde and Alliance were shown in the ambush event, Conquest Hold was a good example as well. (Both sides were fighting for the past two expansions, yes, but at least from a storyline perspective I felt that this was the point that it was really well reflected in the storyline).

    Now, fast forward to Cataclysm. Garrosh, who during Wrath was shown to be a very aggressive enemy of the Alliance, and Varian, who, slowly began to mellow out through Wrath, (not excessively though.). But During Cataclysm, the Horde, or rather, the struggle of the leadership was shown much more than the Alliance, which, while the Alliance had issues, in storylines, the leadership wasn't shown excessively. During the quest chains of almost every race, except the orcs really, Garrosh was shown to be a strong leader, but at the expense of alienating many of the other Horde leaders, while the Horde pushed forward and conquered new territory, there was a -lot- of tension between leaders. Sylvanas was basically doing her own thing and essentially ignoring Garrosh (Recall, Watch your clever mouth bitch.) Vol'Jin essentially was only serving the Warchief due to respect to Thrall. The Tauren were...well, Garrosh, even as an accident, killed the leader of their clans. (Also, that reminds me, what ever happened to the Magatha Grimtotem storyline...) The Blood Elves and Goblins, one was new, one was not really updated.

    Now, in MoP, both the Alliance and Horde combat has gone to a head, with the destruction of Theramore, Jaina, probably the main person keeping Varian from doing anything -too- drastic, was nearly pushed to wipe Orgrimmar off the map. Really, with 5.1 and soon to be 5.2, Mainly Jade Forest, Karasang, Kun-Lai to an extent, and The Landfall storyline. It was kinda shown of how the last expansions, or at least, how the Horde have been affected by Garrosh. More resent horde side has been built up against him, barring orcs as said. I mean, read the book in the room of your faction boss in the dailies, both have a little bit of interesting lore about it (Same with the ones where you fight the miniboss the first part of the invasion chain before leaving your first town in Jade Forest, both sides have a fair amount of interesting lore and it sorta shows how the sides show the current mindset of both sides) The Alliance has been much more on the thought of, working together and are trusting each other, and the hordes general core of "An alliance of convenience" is really showing as Garrosh is -really- kinda tearing at their fabric.

    But anyway: TL;DR: Since Wrath really, Horde have been having a fair amount of animosity and distrust between their ranks. Alliance have been holding more steadfast as allies and are basically holding themselves together much easier, which at the moment is giving them the advantage, once Garrosh goes down, probably things will get more in the Hordes favor. Really though, I think the Horde story is a bit more interesting, even if they aren't winning at the moment really.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    You're trying to make this binary when it's a sliding scale (Consequentially yeah the bloodsail would probably be alliance lore if their old rpg stuff were canon, given that they're run by a human noble that was actually pretty racist, and he let an alliance town fall to the scourge as he went rogue). Goblins not so much

    And I -am- looking at the Lore, Tirion having a few nice words to the Horde doesn't make him the same to them. He was the leader of an alliance settlement prior to WC3 and one of the original paladins. One of his lines in his book is that he will be LOYAL TO THE ALLIANCE UNTIL HIS DYING DAY.
    The old RPG stuff being cannon wouldn't be enough. There would have to be a store line in the game showing the relationship/conflict between the alliance and the pirates. When talking about the lore and stories in an individual expansion out side sources don't matter. A player of one faction shouldn't need to spend money past the subscription in order to see their factions story advance.

    Once again you are going back to the whole "He use to be Alliance so he is still Alliance" argument. His story is no longer part of the Alliance story, it is his own. The book you are referencing takes place before World of Warcraft and doesn't change the fact that in the game he is 100% neutral, supporting neither faction over the other.

    I would argue that people saying things like "Tirion was part of the Alliance so its Alliance lore" are the ones viewing this as in binary rather than a sliding scale. *shrug*

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