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  1. #21
    Warchief theWocky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puremallace View Post
    Another con: A lot of people will hate me for this, but no LFR. You can cry and say it is easy mode and zomg it sucks it dumbs down the game, but it also allows 99% of the playerbase to see the end game. Right now you cannot pug in Rift unless you already have the achievement which you cannot get unless you run with your guild...but if you run with your guild why would you want to pug?!??! The logic behind the current system is fucking mentally retarded at best.
    Yeah, I strongly disagree with this. Everyone can STILL see this content. The difference? They have to wait a tier or two. There was never a shortage of PuGs in original Rift.

    The content is accessible once they nerf it and the next tier rolls on - then people start PuGging. Yes, in SL it is hard to get a PuG at moment, but as soon as the next tier rolls around, it will become commonplace again. There is no need for LFR in my opinion. This from someone who isn't in the guild's main raid team. I will gladly experience it second-time around, one tier behind. Forcing people into guilds to do raids is a good thing, in my opinion as it stimulates server community.
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  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by theWocky View Post
    Yeah, I strongly disagree with this. Everyone can STILL see this content. The difference? They have to wait a tier or two. There was never a shortage of PuGs in original Rift.

    The content is accessible once they nerf it and the next tier rolls on - then people start PuGging. Yes, in SL it is hard to get a PuG at moment, but as soon as the next tier rolls around, it will become commonplace again. There is no need for LFR in my opinion. This from someone who isn't in the guild's main raid team. I will gladly experience it second-time around, one tier behind. Forcing people into guilds to do raids is a good thing, in my opinion as it stimulates server community.
    Also would like to mention that I have had to PuG TotDQ and FT recently-ish since I missed my guilds raid nights that week. I had no problem at all finding a guild that was short a couple people and joining them on their runs. PuGing these is not difficult, if you are known to be a good player. Perhaps the problem Pure is having is that he is a bad player, therefore noone but other bad players bring him on PuG. In fact, I know this to be the case because I ran a PuG raid with him pre-SL, after ID was out and he died avoidable mechanics frequently(Iskaal, run in a circle, don't die).

    Naming/shaming other players on the forums isn't ok. Infracted. -Edge
    Last edited by Edge-; 2013-02-07 at 06:04 PM.
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  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    Also would like to mention that I have had to PuG TotDQ and FT recently-ish since I missed my guilds raid nights that week. I had no problem at all finding a guild that was short a couple people and joining them on their runs. PuGing these is not difficult, if you are known to be a good player. Perhaps the problem Pure is having is that he is a bad player, therefore noone but other bad players bring him on PuG. In fact, I know this to be the case because I ran a PuG raid with him pre-SL, after ID was out and he died avoidable mechanics frequently(Iskaal, run in a circle, don't die).
    No problem at all with rep on Deepwood. You saw what I did yesterday to pass time since SL came out and that was pvp, since raiding is out of the question unless you can link you have already finished the raid. I have just accepted raiding is a part of the game I will never experience due to life changes making it impossible to be on a fixed schedule required by most guilds.

    I would prefer LFR in Rift, but time will prove me right like it always has. I was right when I advocated for this in WoW and they ended up putting it in and for all the bitching it is the most popular feature because like WoW rift is based on end game raiding as the main gear progression path. This clearly is not changing anytime soon, so why make the content only doable by 25% or less of your player base.

    The first assumption alot of people are making is making is I do not have the will to do these raids, but it is a matter of time. I had to leave my previous raiding guild because I was in the process of a divorce and the cunt drained my accounts. Rift as it currently is designed with raiding is not made for people who can play on limited schedules, so I accept the fact that the money I give to Trion goes towards content I will not see for possibly 6 months to a year.

    The genre is dealing with an aging playerbase who started when they were in their teens and are now close to 30. LFR is just a way of seeing end game content for casual players. It does not equal some gateway to the best gear in the game unless you are a retarded dev and design it that way. If done correctly (as Trion has demonstrated multiple times in the past) it can be fun and a great addition to the game.
    Last edited by Puremallace; 2013-02-07 at 05:50 PM.
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  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Puremallace View Post
    No problem at all with rep on Deepwood. You saw what I did yesterday to pass time since SL came out and that was pvp, since raiding is out of the question unless you can link you have already finished the raid. I have just accepted raiding is a part of the game I will never experience due to life changes making it impossible to be on a fixed schedule required by most guilds.

    I would prefer LFR in Rift, but time will prove me right like it always has. I was right when I advocated for this in WoW and they ended up putting it in and for all the bitching it is the most popular feature because like WoW rift is based on end game raiding as the main gear progression path. This clearly is not changing anytime soon, so why make the content only doable by 25% or less of your player base.

    The first assumption alot of people are making is making is I do not have the will to do these raids, but it is a matter of time. I had to leave my previous raiding guild because I was in the process of a divorce and the cunt drained my accounts. Rift as it currently is designed with raiding is not made for people who can play on limited schedules, so I accept the fact that the money I give to Trion goes towards content I will not see for possibly 6 months to a year.

    The genre is dealing with an aging playerbase who started when they were in their teens and are now close to 30. LFR is just a way of seeing end game content for casual players. It does not equal some gateway to the best gear in the game unless you are a retarded dev and design it that way. If done correctly (as Trion has demonstrated multiple times in the past) it can be fun and a great addition to the game.
    really wierd that you you say someone with a limited schedule cannot play yet that is exactly what myself and several others in my guild do. My playtime is usually limited to 2-3 hours after my daughter goes to bed. Sometimes I can play a little more on the weekends, sometimes I can play a little before or after dinner depending on what the g/f is doing. With this limited schedule, I was able to meet the requirements to raid easily. Find and join a guild that raided at times my schedule allows, raid and receive upgrades. I also continually out DPS people who ou tgear me by using proper specs and rotations and am usually the last man standing on wipes since I know how to avoid all the bad things on the floor. I would be willing to venture that players like myself are the bulk of the raiding community. The ones at the top that you hear about all the time are the 1%, yes, but every raiding guild I have been in has several players(usualy most) like myself. If you want to raid, the only thing stopping you is yourself. LFR hurts the game more than it helps, there is no arguing that. Sure, WoW did it, and where is it's pop now as opposed to before? Steadily declining, that's where. It peaked in TBC at 14 million and with all the changes, LFR being one, that number has seen slow and steady decline. If LFR was so great, why did you not see numbers go back up again?

    If you earn a good rep, prove you know how to make the most of the gear you do have, prove you are a competent player and can at the very least give a heads up when you are going to miss a raid day, anyone can raid.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-07 at 12:24 PM ----------

    also want to add, that either nerfing the bosses or buffing the players for LFR has the same result, it trivializes the content. You are not experiencing the content, you are going in and getting carried by your stats that you did not earn, having extra stats allows you to ignore some mechanics instead of removing them. Let's use the first boss in GP as an example. When it first came out, it required 2 tanks. Once tanks had better gear(IE buffed stats) you could one tank it. It is not the same experience. With one tank instead of 2, you have extra DPS, nullifying the DPS requirements. Not to mention, all your DPS have buffed stats as well therefore nullifying the mechanics. Without the mechanics, either through nerfing them or buffing the players as you propose, you are not seeing the content. It's like saying a coke and a waterd down coke are the same thing. It's just not. The person drinking the watered down coke is not getting the experience of drinking a coke.

    Also, unless you have no rewards in the LFR, then it becomes one more thing that the raiders like myself have to do in order to get ready to raid regular raids. It was the case in WoW, even in casual guilds, that people started saying, if you are not ready, just go run LFR a few times and get a couple upgrades. When I asked, well why wouldn't I just run Heroics, they said, well if you wanna pug them ok, but good luck with that, we'll be running LFR to gear up, so you are on your own. It must either be set up as an alternate path, that will become preferred if it is easier, or a step in between which will become required. Unless you put it in with no rewards, then people will complain and not use it after a couple times.
    Last edited by Lathais; 2013-02-07 at 06:27 PM.
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  5. #25
    This clearly is not changing anytime soon, so why make the content only doable by 25% or less of your player base.
    Everyone can see the content. There is no one who says: NOT YOU! LFR was a big mistake in WoW, it devalues the raidcontent by a large margin.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thyr View Post
    Everyone can see the content. There is no one who says: NOT YOU! LFR was a big mistake in WoW, it devalues the raidcontent by a large margin.
    The 50-90% of the playerbase that finds the game more engaging or a better fit for their life because of it will naturally disagree with you. It doesn't devalue the content at all. I'd love to see the explanation on that one, but this isn't the place.

    If it was implemented in Rift and trivialized the encounters while providing the same quality loot, it would be taking away value. Having easier versions of somthing without the prestige and loot isn't taking value away from anything other than people whowant to wave epeens which is silly.
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  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Thyr View Post
    Everyone can see the content. There is no one who says: NOT YOU! LFR was a big mistake in WoW, it devalues the raidcontent by a large margin.
    Trion could do it better for one simple reason. The gear could be less then the gear from the actual raids without the buff. The problem is the elitist devs who do not want to waste time on casuals to do the itemization it would take.
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  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Puremallace View Post
    Trion could do it better for one simple reason. The gear could be less then the gear from the actual raids without the buff. The problem is the elitist devs who do not want to waste time on casuals to do the itemization it would take.
    and if you do it this way, which is exactly what WoW did, gear in between Heroics and Raids from LFR, then it becomes an additional step guilds start requiring raiders to do before entering normal raids. That then takes away that mystery entering it for the first time, devaluing it for myself and many many others.

    LFR is only good for players who cannot navigate mechanics and are unable to truly experience raiding because they have little to no situational awareness. It hurts nearly everyone else in the game. If you want watered down coke there is a game that offers it, but do not sit there and say that drinking watered down coke lets you experience drinking regular coke, because it is not the same thing. It as an entirely different experience that caters to a different target audience. An audience that is not targeted by Rift but is by another game. Why is it you want Rift to be just like that other game when you can just go play that other game.
    Last edited by Lathais; 2013-02-07 at 07:37 PM.
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  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    LFR is only good for players who cannot navigate mechanics and are unable to truly experience raiding because they have little to no situational awareness. It hurts nearly everyone else in the game.
    Wait, what?

    Honestly, I don't have a steady enough evening schedule to raid, but I'd love to start raiding again. I miss my days raiding in BC and pushing the harder content in 10m while our guild did a more casual 25m raid.

    I'm kinda offended that I apparently, "cannot navigate mechanics and am unable to truly experience raiding because I have little to no situational awareness". While not hardcore by any means, I did make it through all but Sunwell in BC before they nerfed the T5/6 content too much, and made it through pretty much all the HM content in 10m LK (including HM LK), so I'd like to that I'd be able to figure out the mechanics in Rift.

    How does my having gear that is better than expert, but worse than raid gear negatively impact you though? I'm curious. It doesn't de-value your raid gear, which is superior to mine, or your experience, which is completely Independent of anything I do. You still maintain your awesomesauce achievements and prestige of a raider.

    I'm not necessarily advocating for LFR in Rift (though I would love it), but I fail to see how it would "destroy" anything about the raiding scene.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post

    LFR is only good for players who cannot navigate mechanics and are unable to truly experience raiding because they have little to no situational awareness. It hurts nearly everyone else in the game. If you want watered down coke there is a game that offers it, but do not sit there and say that drinking watered down coke lets you experience drinking regular coke, because it is not the same thing. It as an entirely different experience that caters to a different target audience. An audience that is not targeted by Rift but is by another game. Why is it you want Rift to be just like that other game when you can just go play that other game.
    I can promise you that with or without LFR WoW hardcore guilds make Rift hardcore guilds look like childs play. LFR does not demeen their ability to have world first. Rift having a convinience feature =/= dumbing the game down, but allowing access.

    This offers a simple solution to having to redo encounters to account for nerfs. All I suggest is a LFR that boost your stats, but keeps the raids at their current difficulty level. Not sure if you noticed, but alot of people do not ahve time to neckbeard it at their computers for 10 hours a day to get the best enchants. Fuck for all I care turn off the achievements if you kill a boss in LFR. I just want to see the content on something other then youtube.
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  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusher View Post
    How does my having gear that is better than expert, but worse than raid gear negatively impact you though? I'm curious. It doesn't de-value your raid gear, which is superior to mine, or your experience, which is completely Independent of anything I do. You still maintain your awesomesauce achievements and prestige of a raider.

    I'm not necessarily advocating for LFR in Rift (though I would love it), but I fail to see how it would "destroy" anything about the raiding scene.
    Because it becomes a step that guilds start requiring you to go through before stepping into the regular version. If that's where you are gonna stop is LFR, then it's great for you but for anyone who want to experience non-watered down raids it presents another barrier of entry. I am not saying this is the developer's fault at all either, this is entirely a player created issue, but that is something devs have to think about is how players will use it. That is how it gets used. The other possible solution is to make it simply offer IS, so you can get that pre-raid gear. However, then comes the issue of making it worth it to run over other IS gaining activities and how players will react to that. Well, I do not need to go do this anymore cause I can do that. It adds one more task that players have to question, "Is this worth doing?" If it is on fact worth it, then you have now added another step on top of, doing dailies, grinding IAs for rep, Grinding GHunts for rep, Grinding Experts for gear/marks. Now I have to run an LFR once a week on top of all that for guilds to consider me over the guy who had more time and did do all those things. That negatively impacts it. Also, forcing me to run a dumbed down version before the real version ruins that mystery of stepping in there the first time.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-07 at 02:09 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Puremallace View Post
    I can promise you that with or without LFR WoW hardcore guilds make Rift hardcore guilds look like childs play. LFR does not demeen their ability to have world first. Rift having a convinience feature =/= dumbing the game down, but allowing access.

    This offers a simple solution to having to redo encounters to account for nerfs. All I suggest is a LFR that boost your stats, but keeps the raids at their current difficulty level. Not sure if you noticed, but alot of people do not ahve time to neckbeard it at their computers for 10 hours a day to get the best enchants. Fuck for all I care turn off the achievements if you kill a boss in LFR. I just want to see the content on something other then youtube.
    But again, giving those stats is the same exact thing as nerfing the content. With extra healing power, it doesn't hurt to stand in AoE, with extra mitigation, one tank can do what would normally require 2, with extra stats DPS can pay less attention. Not sure you noticed, but as I said, I do not have 10 hours a day to neckbeard at my computer yet I raid weekly. I play 2-3 hours a day on weekdays, if that on a non raid night and a few hours on the weekends. That's really all. It does not take much more than that if you actually work at it to raid. If you want to see the content on something other than youtube, get your gear, get your enchants, find a guild that suits your available time, don't fail and get kicked, then see the content. It really is not near as hard as you make it out to be.
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  12. #32
    Main Con for me would possibly be the non-introduction of new races, would've loved to have seen something in that department. the 4 new roles more than make up for it though.

    Overall, I believe Trion did extremely well with this expansion. the main "issues" that I would classify as cons would be things that were already in classic Rift - such as the high rep requirements and length of time to get anywhere with them (although these aren't essential or gamebreaking from a progression perspective)
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  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    Because it becomes a step that guilds start requiring you to go through before stepping into the regular version.
    Not necessarily. If they do, you've already commented on how easy they are, so it shouldn't be too hard to make it through them.

    Beyond that, that's a social construct, not something that the game requires. Just because players are dumb doesn't mean a feature is bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    f that's where you are gonna stop is LFR, then it's great for you but for anyone who want to experience non-watered down raids it presents another barrier of entry.
    Again, how? Normal raids remain untouched, and LFR gear in WoW isn't "required" to do normal raids, you can do normal raids with heroic gear. Considering you walk into raids in Rift in expert gear, I don't see what would change to make it a "requirement".

    Beyond that, I fail to see how it would "water down" the existing normal mode content for those that wish to experience it. Nothing changes. The normal mode fights remain the same as they did the week before it was launched. Hardmode fights don't have any effect on the difficulty of normal mode fights, and won't when they come out, so why would LFR difficultly have any effect?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    I am not saying this is the developer's fault at all either, this is entirely a player created issue, but that is something devs have to think about is how players will use it. That is how it gets used.
    I agree (as noted earlier), but there are some ways around that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    The other possible solution is to make it simply offer IS, so you can get that pre-raid gear. However, then comes the issue of making it worth it to run over other IS gaining activities and how players will react to that. Well, I do not need to go do this anymore cause I can do that. It adds one more task that players have to question, "Is this worth doing?" If it is on fact worth it, then you have now added another step on top of, doing dailies, grinding IAs for rep, Grinding GHunts for rep, Grinding Experts for gear/marks. Now I have to run an LFR once a week on top of all that for guilds to consider me over the guy who had more time and did do all those things. That negatively impacts it. Also, forcing me to run a dumbed down version before the real version ruins that mystery of stepping in there the first time.
    Again, a social construct. If you're getting raid quality gear, you have little use for IS gear any longer. It's possible that it would be a good method of getting IS if it were to reward it, but as you note there are plenty of other ways to acquire IS. You're not forced do use any specific route unless you want to absolutely 100% maximize what you're earning.

    It's never needed simply because it exists. When I did 10m "slightly more serious" raiding in WoW, we didn't do it for the gear or because we felt it was necessary. We did it for the challenge and the experience. We were never "forced" into it, just as you aren't "forced" into optional content, especially when said optional content holds nothing of value for you.

  14. #34
    The only real con I have for the game is how poorly it runs. I had gotten used to playing at 15-30fps (.5 fps during the colossus encounter) but when I sampled TSW and was instantly at 50+ fps the game was so much smoother and felt better so I haven't felt the urge to go back to the slideshow/choppy play of Rift yet.

    Other than that it's a great game with tons of features and things to do.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusher View Post
    Not necessarily. If they do, you've already commented on how easy they are, so it shouldn't be too hard to make it through them.

    Beyond that, that's a social construct, not something that the game requires. Just because players are dumb doesn't mean a feature is bad.



    Again, how? Normal raids remain untouched, and LFR gear in WoW isn't "required" to do normal raids, you can do normal raids with heroic gear. Considering you walk into raids in Rift in expert gear, I don't see what would change to make it a "requirement".

    Beyond that, I fail to see how it would "water down" the existing normal mode content for those that wish to experience it. Nothing changes. The normal mode fights remain the same as they did the week before it was launched. Hardmode fights don't have any effect on the difficulty of normal mode fights, and won't when they come out, so why would LFR difficultly have any effect?



    I agree (as noted earlier), but there are some ways around that.



    Again, a social construct. If you're getting raid quality gear, you have little use for IS gear any longer. It's possible that it would be a good method of getting IS if it were to reward it, but as you note there are plenty of other ways to acquire IS. You're not forced do use any specific route unless you want to absolutely 100% maximize what you're earning.

    It's never needed simply because it exists. When I did 10m "slightly more serious" raiding in WoW, we didn't do it for the gear or because we felt it was necessary. We did it for the challenge and the experience. We were never "forced" into it, just as you aren't "forced" into optional content, especially when said optional content holds nothing of value for you.
    Tell that to the three guilds that I was in before finally quitting WoW. The wanted you to have the best possible available before stepping into their raid group. That meant having the LFR gear. Again, the game does not require it, the players do. It's one of the reasons WoW stopped being fun for me. Just like I am starting to get upset at my current guild in Rift pestering me everyday about running Karthan Ridge for rep to buy a trinket and CQ for the better trinket. The game is not directly forcing me to run PvP to Raid, but due to the design players are. If I do not go do it then I risk losing my spot to someone who did. Just like if LFR gets put in, the guy who does have the time and desire to go run those and has the gear will get a spot in a raid before me, who does not have time to.
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  16. #36
    In my opinion, Rift has great class design. Each class has nine talent trees that you can mix and match, and you can carry up to six specs to switch between. This means that even if you only play one character, you get a ton of variety. Compared to some MMOs that shoehorn you into a single role, that's really nice. Also, the souls break a lot of stereotypes you usually find in fantasy games-- you have DPS clerics, healing mages, tanking rogues, and warriors that throw lightning.

    The raid design is a mixed bag. On the one hand, they're very willing to do really unique things with bosses that require very specific counters, and because everyone has tons of specs to switch between, it doesn't feel like you need to stack a bajillion of a specific class to meet those requirements. On the other hand, the mechanics themselves tend to be punishing rather than challenging-- there's very few encounters where it's actually hard to deal with something. Instead, you just wipe if you make a mistake, which can make progression very frustrating. In part, this is because healing is incredibly strong and healers never run out of mana, meaning that they can't make boss attacks particularly dangerous unless they kill you outright, so you see a lot of pass/fail mechanics.

    I'd argue that WoW generally has better raid design, but at the same time, raiding in WoW can feel very proscribed because of how limited each class is, and by the fact that they try to restrict your ability to change things up. In Rift, the ability to play three or four different specs in a single night of raiding goes a long way towards staving off boredom.

  17. #37
    Honestly the only sterotype Rift breaks class wise is WoWs extremely limited scope class wise.
    The soul system allows near 0 fiddling with in terms of specs. While it makes sense to try and balance the game, esp for a tiny company like trion with basically 2 ppl now only left in charge of all this.
    Anyway, the soul system is a big plus, just saying that Rift fanbase & dev exaggeration aside, beyond the overwhelming at first glance number of possible choices it just boils down to a very few "working" specs.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by NeedDeeps View Post
    Honestly the only sterotype Rift breaks class wise is WoWs extremely limited scope class wise.
    The soul system allows near 0 fiddling with in terms of specs. While it makes sense to try and balance the game, esp for a tiny company like trion with basically 2 ppl now only left in charge of all this.
    Anyway, the soul system is a big plus, just saying that Rift fanbase & dev exaggeration aside, beyond the overwhelming at first glance number of possible choices it just boils down to a very few "working" specs.
    Wut? I'm confused.

    Trion absolutely has a full staff working on Rift. No clue where this "2 ppl now only left in charge of all this." comes from.

    Beyond that, there are hundreds of "viable" specs in Rift. Yes, there is always 1-2 top specs per calling/role, but if you're implying that there are not other functional specs, you're 100% wrong. I can roll in experts, zone events, and casual raiding perfectly fine without using one of the top specs.

  19. #39
    Their names Ailion and Kervik you can look it up

  20. #40
    Those are two of the devs that post in the forums. Other devs post in the forums as well, and there are others that don't even post in the forums.

    What's your point? I'm quite confused here.

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