Protectors elite-mana issues

[Sinitar]

So, my guild just started to raid normal toes. Since the fish guys seemed to be an easy boss, we decided to go for elite mode. The fight is not overly complicated, and we managed to kill them in three tries or so. However, this boss seems to even more brutal than Grand Empress when it comes to oom-ing me. Here's my armory:

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Hadris/simple

I used qin'xi polarizing seal(1079 spi) and a spi flask, and even with 10k spirit or so, I still went oom at about 10% boss health. Should I simply get some more spirit for this encounter? I fear that, without new gear, this fight won't get any easier for me.

[Deleted]

You really should try and avoid using spirit flasks or food. It is a 1:1 int loss. try and get the spirit u need from gear and gems (you get 2 spirit/int lost from gems).
I agree i tend to run dry on this boss. try and minimise overhealing. trust your other healers and cut back on rejuevs and regrowths that you don't have to cast. use innervate early and often, make sure u have plenty of mana pots. if u have a priest use their cd for mana. if u have a resto shaman make sure they drop mana tide early and often.
If u have dps shaman make sure they use HTT or whichever healing talent they took.
If u have spriest make sure they use (and tell u) VE.
If u have boomkin get them to tell u when NV is up. (u can use the 45k mana pots when dps run healing cd's)
basically play smarter with your heals and play as a group.

[Sinitar]

Thank you for yet another helpful post(you also checked my other thread ). I know spi flasks are a no-go, but I was pretty much responsible for the previous wipes. I tried with int flask and two powerful regen trinkets on the first try and went oom way too fast. Then, I tried switching the Operation: Shieldwall trinket with qin'xi polaziring seal(1079) SP and int flask. I also ran oom. The spi flask allowed for a much smoother healing.

I'll try to talk to my resto shamy partner to do what you just said. I have no idea why I never seem to get the spirit from mana tide. Our raid comp is kind of bad too. I duo heal this fight with a resto shamy, and our raid has no priest/boomkin(We only have one WoL-obsessed kitten that would never trade his WoL rank to help with heals and me as druids).

As to playing smarter with my heals...I think I am already doing this. I mostly let efflorescence heal the melee and the WG to heal the ranged, but the significant amount of damage allows for no moment of respite.

[Deleted]

Hi Sinitar, I guess you're raiding 10 men, since I don't have any problems in 25 Elite with only 6k spi.

A few tips that can help you :

Trust your healing team !, do not spam rejuv on anybody, only people with debuff. In the end keep 3 to 4 for rejuv to the same person, it will be easier for the other healer to know who to heal and then be mana efficient.

When first boss is dead make sure to be place in the inner ring for the haste buff and then SM+WG aoe healing fest

Use innerv at 85% mana, then on cd.

If you've got the 4T14, go for SotF. It's a great troughtput for that fight with ramping damage on everybody. If you really struggle go for incarnation, use it during the last % of first boss, that will give you time to use it when really needed (end of third boss). Adjust with the dps to make sure you'll have a full use of incarnation at the end of the fight. it's a great mana saver if you're in trouble (but you shouldn't).

If you want to know anything else...

PS: sorry for bad english, not my native language.

Laelis
Eu Suramar

[Thalur]

I know spi flasks are a no-go, but I was pretty much responsible for the previous wipes. I tried with int flask and two powerful regen trinkets on the first try and went oom way too fast. Then, I tried switching the Operation: Shieldwall trinket with qin'xi polaziring seal(1079) SP and int flask. I also ran oom. The spi flask allowed for a much smoother healing.

Going OOM is not about spirit. Even 1000 extra spirit only give you mana for like 3 rejuvs per minute, and you will need to cast those because your heals are a lot weaker if you cut back on int for this spirit. Having more int (or mastery) means you need to cast less spells and won't make you get OOM faster even with less spirit.

Protectors Elite is a very AoE healing intensive fight, so throughput ( = int and mastery) is even more important. Make best use of Swiftmend and Wild Growth, and cut back on Rejuv (especially at the start of fight, is gets much rougher later). If you can show us some logs, we can help you more specifically with spell usage.

Edit: Yesterday's Elite Protectors log

[Sinitar]

Thank you for the helpful post Laelis. Your english is alright, and I will incorporate your suggestion into my play style the next time we engage the boss. I think one factor that contributes to my fast mana depletion is the poor positioning of Asani. Since the MT tanks Kaolan on the edges of the room, Asani is placed in a very weird position: He's somewhere between the middle and Kaolan. Because of this, some people don't get the haste buff(I get it all the time), and the healing becomes quite intensive when an orb spawns.

@Thalur: Thank you for the advice. I think spi is somewhat better than that. As I said, I tried to heal with int flask and int trinket, and I ended up oom-in at around 70% on the last boss. That try, I did 81k hps while my shamy partner did about 50k. That discrepancy is what led to me oom-ing I guess... So you suggest that I should rejuv less and WG more? I'll try this the next time we go in there I only use rejuv on targets below 50% that are about to take more damage(People with the debuff, dot, or whatever it is).

Here's the WoL for the Elite protectors kill. I think that some new gear will help a ton with that fight. I looted a Jin'ya, orb of the waterspeaker, using a coin. Should I upgrade it, enchant it and gem it? Is it good for resto in the first place?

Also, please note that for me, it takes time to adjust to a fight. Since it was my first time at protectors, I did not know what spell combination is best to use.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=2878&e=3302

[Thalur]

After seeing your log, I withdraw my suggestion of using Rejuv less, your spell distribution looks perfectly right. Your problems come from having to heal more than the two healers can (or, almost). I've never seen such ridiculously low overhealing (for a druid), for example 10% OH on Lifebloom means the Tank is never at 100%. You're pulling that Shaman through (he could at least use his CDs better), and your raid is taking more damage than necessary. Only thing to improve might be LB uptime, you'd get a lot more CC procs which reduces mana problems.

About Spirit, it's certainly better for you than for me, because your fight was 1.5 minutes longer. However, especially in this zero-overheal situation, 1000 more int do a lot more for your heals than the same amount of spirit.

Jin'ya certainly is good as a healer. Might not be the best in slot, but you're doing nothing wrong upgrading and gemming it.

---------- Post added 2013-02-07 at 12:54 PM ----------

I think spi is somewhat better than that.

Actually it's much worse, I had remembered the numbers wrong. Spirit Flask lets you cast 2 extra Rejuvs EVERY THREE MINUTES. It is really that bad. If you want to read more on that topic, I suggest this article of one of the top resto druid theorycrafters:

http://iam.yellingontheinternet.com/...ling-problems/

[Chimaera]

Your kill took 7 minutes. A spirit flask in that amount of time will allow you to cast 5 additional rejuvenations. If you are oom a minute before the boss is dead, flasking spirit is not going to help you. This fight, like most with some form of raid damage, is about keeping lifebloom up and leveraging swiftmend + wild growth to do as much of the healing as possible, especially since you are talented for SotF. If you are doing that, using your clearcasting procs effectively, and being efficient with rejuvenation, realistically the reason you go oom is from the other healer not healing enough, the raid taking unnecessary damage, or the fight taking longer than it should given the number of healers you are using. For instance your kill is 2 minutes slower than my raid's typical kill time.

Also, why not just tank Asani in the middle? You only need one healer in range of Kaolan's tank.

[Deleted]

IMO Jin'Ya is the BIS weapon...

with normal version, Jin'Ya is 496 and Kri'tak 496 but the feng off hand is 489, resulting in an intellect loss. The fact that i'm looking for minimum spirit make it BiS for me at least. But I easily admit that in 10 men raid you want a little more spi. maybe 7k for the intense fights.

In your log you only use Tranq once, i think you can use easily twice, even if the first one will result in high overhealing, it will top everybody, for a very little mana consumption. Maybe switch SotF for Incarnation. Those two will help you a lot in mana conservation.

With practice you'll learn the incoming damage curve and then make better CD usage. That's the key for better mana conservation.

Laelis
Eu Suramar

[Epimetheuz]

After seeing your log, I withdraw my suggestion of using Rejuv less, your spell distribution looks perfectly right. Your problems come from having to heal more than the two healers can (or, almost). I've never seen such ridiculously low overhealing (for a druid), for example 10% OH on Lifebloom means the Tank is never at 100%. You're pulling that Shaman through (he could at least use his CDs better), and your raid is taking more damage than necessary. Only thing to improve might be LB uptime, you'd get a lot more CC procs which reduces mana problems.

About Spirit, it's certainly better for you than for me, because your fight was 1.5 minutes longer. However, especially in this zero-overheal situation, 1000 more int do a lot more for your heals than the same amount of spirit.

Jin'ya certainly is good as a healer. Might not be the best in slot, but you're doing nothing wrong upgrading and gemming it.

---------- Post added 2013-02-07 at 12:54 PM ----------



Actually it's much worse, I had remembered the numbers wrong. Spirit Flask lets you cast 2 extra Rejuvs EVERY THREE MINUTES. It is really that bad. If you want to read more on that topic, I suggest this article of one of the top resto druid theorycrafters:

http://iam.yellingontheinternet.com/...ling-problems/

Pretty much this, you really shouldnt be above a shaman in HPS.

[Varna]

I just checked my logs against yours, and I'm pretty much sitting around 30% mana at the end of the fight using 8.3k spirit with int flask/food using my healing style (very heavy regrowth, 3.7% OH). The link is; http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/a...?s=1528&e=1946 for the fight from last night, got a few upgrades also! On this fight, switch focus on your tanks constantly moving your LB about on the tank taking the most damage, always keep RJ on both tanks and just RG the runner now and then, save WG for the bits just after the aoe gets dropped. In the final phase, you can use WM;B to cheese some of the healing needed when people are stacking up to double up on the WG hot. Lastly, on the point about spirit - there is no right or wrong, much the same way there is no right or wrong way to heal, everyone is different. Generally though, the int flask and food is probably better for most so you might want to use those instead of spirit.

[NightZero88]

Didn't read the logs but it sounds like you're trying to 2 heal this. Can you 3 heal it? Would be much easier. My group 3 heals it with 2 tanks and we have 0 issues. We kill it right around the enrage but we've only done it 2 times so far (just hit ToES). We have 2*rdruid, 1*shammy and we all heal around 50-60khps on this fight if I recall correctly.

Couple of tips, if you are two tanking it and I believe you are (I'm bad with WoL) have all the adds grouped in the middle for p1. Have 1 tank take the water guy and the lightning guy and the other tank take the melee guy (sorry don't recall names). Everyone focus first boss (do not bother with cleaves, they heal and you're wasting DPS). Right when the first guy (lightning) is about to die, have the with the melee add run out with him and your other tank holds water guy right in the middle. Then have EVERYONE stack in the middle for AoE heals and for blowing up the corrupted waters when it spawns. For our group, I call a tank swap on the 3rd corrupted waters which is right when the boss is at 50%. Make the switch when corrupted waters goes out. Use waters debuff for haste and bonus damage then when he dies have ranged stay grouped up for AoE heals and melee grouped up for AoE heals. Lust here and kill the boss.

I personally run with 8k spirit with the flask and don't have many issues. I dip low during P1 because of the dispels, then go up in P2 then down in P3 ending the fight with about 20-30k mana left. If you two heal it though I could see big mana issues so yeah, I recommend 3 if you can.

[Sinitar]

Thank you so much for your insightful posts guys. I'll have a chat with my resto shamy partner to discuss some aspects of the fight. He rarely uses mana tide totem for some reason. We'll also try a better tanking strategy, because the current one does not work. My gut instinct also tells that Asani should be tanked in the middle, but I don't know what the heck are our tanks doing.

@Thalur: So it's also a dps issue? With my current gear, the only fights where I have a hard time with my mana are grand empress and protectors. These are the only fights where I actually had to wait for mana in order to cast spells. Also, even if spirit is not as good as intellect, I think it simply works best for me, especially for fights where longevity is important. I don't really bother with theory crafting as long as my healing works. For instance, many druids are adamant about using int flask instead of spi, but my spi flask+trinket allowed me to do 67k HPS at empress(I went OOM in p3 though) and rank on WoL(Since I have no idea how to read WoL, that;s the only thing I look at :P ). I doubt I could have done that with an int setup.

@Nightzero: I doubt we can three heal it with our dps. The damage is not that high to warrant a 3 healers setup in my opinion. Depending on the group composition, hybrids that can help with healing at key points can literally save the day. Problem is, we don't have a very good group composition, so the healers have to cover this weakness.

[land]

You should be using innervate earlier, like within the 30-40 secs. Even if you are at 90% mana, it is still better to pop that early so you will have an extra innervate by the end of the fight.

Same for tranq, pop it early in the fight and have it ready again close to the end when you'll need the most. You can think of tranq as a mana cd if you pop it early in the fight to counter a bit of damage.

Try to time ur tranq (if possible) with a big int proc from a trinket, helps a lot specially at the end. From ur kill log you pop'd it right after a big trink proc of 2.5k int.

Lastly, looking at ur mana gained, wth is "Water Spirit"? Is that a mana pot? You can probably use a concentration pot here for more mana if you time it with a low damage phase (communicate it with ur shammy preferrably).

[NightZero88]

@Nightzero: I doubt we can three heal it with our dps. The damage is not that high to warrant a 3 healers setup in my opinion. Depending on the group composition, hybrids that can help with healing at key points can literally save the day. Problem is, we don't have a very good group composition, so the healers have to cover this weakness.

Our DPS is good but I don't think it's great. The DPS requirement isn't that great. If I recall correctly, we kill the first guy at around 6 minutes left in the enrage, second guy with 3:30-4 left in enrage. I haven't discussed 2 healing this with our comp but there is a lot of damage, I'm not sure our healers could do it (I am the balance who heals 3 heal fights for our group). But different strokes for different folks. Whatever helps you guys get it down. But if you're pulling 30k more HPS than your partner somethings wrong, especially with you being the weakest healer as a druid. Like I said before, we pull 50-60kHPS with three healers so we're matching your shammy and he should be much higher with having one less healer.

[land]

Our DPS is good but I don't think it's great. The DPS requirement isn't that great. If I recall correctly, we kill the first guy at around 6 minutes left in the enrage, second guy with 3:30-4 left in enrage. I haven't discussed 2 healing this with our comp but there is a lot of damage, I'm not sure our healers could do it (I am the balance who heals 3 heal fights for our group). But different strokes for different folks. Whatever helps you guys get it down. But if you're pulling 30k more HPS than your partner somethings wrong, especially with you being the weakest healer as a druid. Like I said before, we pull 50-60kHPS with three healers so we're matching your shammy and he should be much higher with having one less healer.

Shammies will do kinda shitty here if ppl aren't stacked up on their healing rain as much as possible, you can recall ppl about that, specially in the end of the fight when the damage gets higher.

[Deleted]

We normally 3 heal this fight, and it's an absolute breeze.
However, last night we had to 2 heal it due to our third healer being ill, and me and my resto shammy partner struggled quite a bit. We managed it, but we were both struggling for mana towards the end. I think a lot of this was due to poor stacking, so his healing rain wan't doing a great deal.
Here is our log for the night in case you want to look through the spell usages:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/e...d/?s=421&e=825