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  1. #21
    If you can't outheal 1 DPS then what's the point in healing.

    There's also the matter of every classes self healing which makes it impossible for a healer to kill a DPS in a 1v1.

    I'm confused by the OPs logic.

  2. #22
    Bloodsail Admiral Romandix's Avatar
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    Anyone who is wondering why Rogues will be more powerful in 5.2 only need to remind themselves that we scale really well with gear and the bump in the next tier is pretty substantial. We always tend to out-scale other classes at the end of an expansion but this time round it is happening a wee bit early. The baseline Preparation and lowered cool down on CoS is just the little nudge we needed to be very capable killing healers 1v1 in 5.2.
    The great Friedrich Nietzsche once said, Shit happens deal with it.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Romandix View Post
    Anyone who is wondering why Rogues will be more powerful in 5.2 only need to remind themselves that we scale really well with gear and the bump in the next tier is pretty substantial. We always tend to out-scale other classes at the end of an expansion but this time round it is happening a wee bit early.
    Theres not really any scaling going on as far as pvp for 5.2. Right now top pvper's have 491 gear and 498 weapons, in s13 they will have 493 gear and that same 498 weapon since the s13 weapon is 493. Yes after months of pvp and 27000 conquest later they will then go from a 498 to a 503 weapon. The upgrade system made this next season's dmg barely move. You are seeing nothing early all the changes that happened in 5.1 and 5.2 are what should have been done in beta and what you are seeing is what rogues are like when working correctly as far as mobility and and cd's. If you can solo a healer on ptr you can solo a healer in 5.1 our dmg hasn't moved enough to make some massive difference.

    The biggest thing about the ptr is theres not that many rogues at that gear lvl on live ( rogues are 1.3% rep in 3v3) So the dmg they see comes as a shock and they think that the minor 5.2 dmg changes are the reason. When the truth is 97% of dmg can be done on live.

    Also I never got that "we scale better than other classes" bs. Classes that scale really good don't need to get buffed mid expansion every expansion like rogues do.
    Last edited by wow; 2013-02-11 at 08:41 PM.

  4. #24
    I thought I'd just register to say that although I've read some well informed posts in this thread I've also noticed that everyone seems to over look the power of Combat PVP spec. Just thought I'd mention that there's more than just Subtlety spec rogues...

  5. #25
    It depends on your spec, and the spec of the healer. I will confirm what the numeric guy above said- combat is actually pretty good at burning a healer alone. Largely this is because you can eventually line up the following:

    Red Insight
    Adren
    Blades
    Spree
    8 second stun*

    *This means you need to get a trinket WITHOUT using these things.

    Sub puts out decent damage, but it's hard to get someone 100->0 even inside dance and blades. It will be better in 5.2 with prep baseline.


    These people saying "herp derp you shouldn't be able to kill a healer" are pretty much 100% full of it. Plenty of classes can kill healers. If a warrior swaps to your healer, do you just twiddle your thumbs, or do you peel him? The rogue kit has always been about stacking enough control forward to kill the healer. Right now, our issue is that outside of blades, we don't have enough pressure to get healers to spend mana (mana goes up) or blow cooldowns (defensive cooldowns stack up), and blades is a long enough cooldown that plenty of resources are available to counteract this. No one is proposing that a rogue simple be able to walk up and instagib a healer- I understand this to be about a 1v1 situation, mostly.

    5.2 should improve this in many ways:

    1)- Some of the more powerful healing tricks are getting addressed. For instance, I think there will be a cast time on the low cooldown paladin aoe blind. Displacer beast will no longer be as powerful. Spirit shell will no longer be as powerful. This doesn't fix everything, but it is something.
    2)- Recup buff will help immensely versus a healer solo.
    3)- Shuriken throw will prevent you from being turned entirely off by a healer kiting.
    4)- If you have nerve strike, it will reduce healing a bit as they emerge from kidney.
    5)- Baseline prep guarantees you will have a gap closer AND prep. This will allow for one more hard CC on the healer (stun or silence) than whatever came before.


    We'll see.

  6. #26
    I have seen DK's take healers down but so far, I haven't been able to do so with a rogue.

  7. #27
    Pit Lord
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    just gib them in kidney shot , np

    actual ptr footage


  8. #28
    Burst Burst Burst SWAAAAAG. Good video, would watch again.

  9. #29
    Combat can do that on live if the other team is bad enough to let it happen. The amount of combat rogues over 2220 should show how good this is oh wait thats 0 lol.

  10. #30
    Wait for Battle Fatigue to be fixed? Unless it already has been.

  11. #31
    In a balanced world, healers shouldn't be beaton 1 on 1, otherwise any team would focus the healer and then pass to the other classes.

    The fact is that there are a lot of combo which can gib people in a few cooldowns. Sometimes they are that strong they need to be nerfed, sometimes they are just easily interruptable and can be negated - these last ones are good fro the game, because you can score a kill IF the other team doesn't do anything against it, or you forced them to "waste" ther defenses so they cannot counter the combo.

    It's not that rogue aren't strong - they actually have a really great pool of tools to use from burst to control. The problem is that any of the rogue combo is easily counterable.

    KS for example can be destroyed just by one opponent running into the melee range - yeah, more spread damage but you are not focusing the healer anymore. And you don't have any control over this, you just have to wait until KS expires.

    I'm not saying that other classes have an easy time, but it's a fact that rogues aren't played at high levels (apart some ones). The majority of PvPers are fotm rerollers because they look at highest ratings - it's like for PvErs looking for the best spec/rotation, they just look for the best classes/teams.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    In a balanced world, healers shouldn't be beaton 1 on 1, otherwise any team would focus the healer and then pass to the other classes.
    This is complete nonsense, it is misinformation that was put forth by blizzard and has served to harm the whole debate over pvp immensely. In pvp a healer should be able to save a DPS or himself from being killed for a certain amount of time, the logic is that buying this extra time will allow you to effectively fight back. It makes no sense for pvp to have the tanking mindset of pve where you are expected to just tank pvp damage forever or until the attacker is killed.

    What we should want in pvp is for player ability to determine whether the combined parts of a team result in a higher fighting power than the individual parts. Making 1 dps + 1 healer an insurmountable counter to a single dps results in a pvp system where the only thing that really matters is gear, because it is practically impossible for the ability of a single player to overwhelm a healer/dps, which means that the baseline synergy of healing to dps is set way too high.
    Most people would rather die than think, and most people do. -Bertrand Russell
    There is not a flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people. -Howard Zinn
    The stars may be far away, but people still reach for them. -My Grandfather
    Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by wangsta View Post
    try sub - it helps alot. im doing pretty decent on healers actually (apart from disc priest sadly but then again it all depends). subterfuge is a must me thinks. premedation and SnD before jumpin on to the healer, cheap shot, ambush, rupture (glyphed), out of stealth and full on CPs, kidney, dance, some ambushes, second rupture, second kidney, arcane torrent (nomnom BE) and 2-3 eviscerates (if still alive) and thats pretty much it. throwin a bomb if someone try to save him... thats the ideal situation ofc it all depends. typin this just to prove that u can pretty much control a healer. kick is useful too
    And where the hell do you get that much energy? That's stupid. You think he won't trinket or use defensive CDs? No just no.

  14. #34
    Dreadlord Spichora's Avatar
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    u dont have to be Great damage dealer to kill the healer ... only doing 100k+ dmg to healer wont kill good healer even though u might bring him below -30%. and rogues r very effective against healers:2 stuns, silence, poison that stuns healer ever faster when slice and dice is up... smoke bomb can be decisive in killing healer if hes targeting this mate for heals ... slice and dice auto attacks plus special attacks makes heals suffer from great damage .... small amounts it might seem but rogue makes significant damage against healers with auto attack.... its just most of rogues cant manage all this in 1 piece and to use the exact skill it is required in given moment and take advantage on weakened healer. Yah it is considered that rogue is most difficult class to play

  15. #35

    Lmao

    Quote Originally Posted by Squirl View Post
    No class can 1v1 a good healer. Luckily this game isn't about 1v1.

    The control we provide is more than enough to land kills. Just don't expect to be the one doing the damage.
    Warriors OWN me..Full Malevolent disc priest... its totally unbalanced!! Monk healers you cant touch, disc is just garbage in PVP, Warriors,mages and warlocks can 3 shot you. How blizz cant see this is beyond me... I laugh at rogues now, as i used to fear hearing that rogue invisible noise, now i taunt them on any of my classes. The CC by EVERY class is NUTS now. They should just remove healers from any type of PVP cause there useless....

  16. #36
    Mechagnome
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    There are some healers I can kill, but that doesn't come easily. Druid healers are pretty meh with their endless cc and escapes. Disc priests might be easiest, I think, but I don't exactly keep a count, but it also comes down to the particular healer's skill and gear.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by wow View Post
    Combat can do that on live if the other team is bad enough to let it happen. The amount of combat rogues over 2220 should show how good this is oh wait thats 0 lol.
    What if it's not another team? What if it's you versus the healer as the only ones left?

    The reason combat isn't represented is not "we're all wrong about it being able to kill a healer"- though, in fairness, we could be. Combat has a BUNCH of things wrong with it. The thread was "how do I solo a healer", not "what should I play for high rated arena".

    In a balanced world, healers shouldn't be beaton 1 on 1, otherwise any team would focus the healer and then pass to the other classes.
    I 100% disagree with you here. As long as "beating a healer" doesn't mean "globalling them lol", it's fine to be able to beat a healer 1v1. For instance, you could deal enough damage that their mana eventually drops. Or, you could put out enough control that they can't keep themselves up through it. In both of these cases, being able to solo a healer doesn't wreck game balance- and we've spent most of the game WITH that dynamic. If you are facing TSG and they tunnel your heals, do you just go and mess with their healer, and whomever blasts the healer wins? Or do you peel them, so your healer can top himself off?

    KS for example can be destroyed just by one opponent running into the melee range - yeah, more spread damage but you are not focusing the healer anymore. And you don't have any control over this, you just have to wait until KS expires.
    If someone walks into your killing spree, your question isn't "how do I kill a a healer", it's "how do I play against comp X".

    I'm not saying that other classes have an easy time, but it's a fact that rogues aren't played at high levels
    Yes, this is generally true. More relevantly, rogues that do normally play at high levels are all lower this time around. But I don't think this is just because of some "can't kill a healer" thing, I think it's because of a HUGE variety of massive rogue nerfs in 5.0, putting rogues that are substantially weaker than anything we've ever seen on live, in the same arena universe as classes that are actually STRONGER than anything we've seen on live (warriors, but not just them).

    If you are saying "how can I solo an rdruid as sub in 5.2", I think you'll have a better answer to that than in 5.1 and certainly compared to 5.0, but at the end of the day they will chain the exact same CC with the exact same frequency, and you still have to deal with disorienting roar, cyclone to DR, and you can also get caught in roots. Still, a one minute cloak and baseline prep should make this a thing.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-12 at 07:14 PM ----------

    its just most of rogues cant manage all this in 1 piece and to use the exact skill it is required in given moment and take advantage on weakened healer. Yah it is considered that rogue is most difficult class to play
    And the 1971 Ford Pinto is the hardest car to win an F1 race with. But most drivers can't manage all this in one piece and to use the exact skill it is required in a given moment and take advantage of all those 700 HP cars.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    In a balanced world
    Seems that someone is missing this part. If everything was balanced, you could take down healers with teamwork and all the things you have said.

    If i take your opinions, what i get is that you need to focus an healer until he's oom then you can kill him. Imho it's better if you can kill an healer because he cannot manage to keep his team alive hence he goes oom, 1on1 i don't see this happening.

    Anyone can disagree with this; also i'm not a PvP expert so just bash me if i'm saying nonsense (but not in infractable manners)

  19. #39
    If a DPS can kill a healer 1v1, whats the point of healers to begin with?

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Incineration View Post
    Even during our "prime time" in 4.3, killing healers as a rogue simply didn't seem doable. I just don't think our kit is very "anti-healer". We lack the consistent heavy burst damage that is required. Death Knights or Warriors are much better for such tasks, they simply deal immense amounts of damage with each attack, relentlessly assaulting their opponents with several 100k+ hits. We just can't match that.
    During rogue's "prime time" in 4.3 a rogue in PvE gear with that proc trinket could take down a PvP geared FC while their defensive CDs were still active. Healers were no problems at all - unless you were accidentally rolling your face across parts of the keyboard with unbound keys...

    Though I will agree now rogues don't have much they can do. The buffs to combat single-target and additional haste on gear next patch should help a lot, though.

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