Page 1 of 2
1
2
LastLast
  1. #1

    Muscle Memory: Extremely bad for the Chi Generation Talents

    I hadn't thought about this before today, but Muscle Memory (the passive effect that causes Jab to buff the next TP or BoK for Mistweavers) is absolutely dreadful for Power Strikes and Chi Brew. The idea of Muscle Memory is to create a nice Jab/TP/Jab/TP rhythm and only use BoK to refresh Serpent's Zeal, but what happens when extra Chi is thrown in there without it coming from Jab? Well... it's not buffed by Muscle Memory.

    If you're Fistweaving and get extra Chi from Renewing Mists, Expel Harm, Power Strikes, or Chi Brew, your only options to spend it in 5.2 will be Uplift and TP/BoK because the level 30 talents will no longer cost Chi. However, if you spend that on TP or BoK, you will do next to no healing thanks to balancing being centered on Muscle Memory. This will leave the only options for CB/PS being Uplift. That will make them quite awful compared to Ascension simply because the ability to spend Chi on effective healing will be very constricted.

    I don't think I like that, thoughts?

  2. #2
    Warchief DirewolfX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    2,012
    Power Strikes lines up somewhat with when you'll need to refresh SZ. I'm not entirely sure that building up extra chi over time to spend on Uplift/EnvMist is a bad thing either.

  3. #3
    I've considered this previously and in todays testing I finally got to see it in practice. I felt constrained to say the least, it felt like I lost further flexibility. Making the T30 talents free and with a CD attached and thus limiting our chi consuming abilities further, gah it's complicated but it doesn't feel right since we lose options. Ascension is a bit more competitive at least, but I guess it's a smart move by Blizzard to force us to use jab to generate chi instead of EH on CD (although you will still be able to do so for uplift).

    In fact, all that can be said is that PS and Chi Brew in particular will become a lot less attractive, I'm not sure if this is positive or negative. It definitely makes the monk consider the T45 talents a bit more seriously instead of using Chi Brew for every encounter. Every time I generated chi without gaining Muscle Memory and I couldn't dump it on TP I used jab just to have a buffed Blackout Kick, when no effective healing was needed. Since I wasn't spending that many chi on TP because I didn't have Muscle Memory that often my fistweaving seemed to be a bit more mana intensive than what was expected. Perhaps we need to break out of some habits we have on live, but I think that your quote from a couple of threads ago can apply: these changes definitely punish mistweavers who generate chi with jab and spend them on non-TP options (uplift and blackout kick).

    And if you don't use jab your eminence healing will be shit. Perhaps, to maintain some of our current flexibility in chi generation they could revert Eminence to its current state and make Muscle Memory have a secondary effect where the ability's eminence healing gets reduced by 25%, both applicable for the monk and the statue. That way, even if your TP and BoK aren't buffed by Muscle Memory they should always do approximately the same healing, and if you want to do pure DPSweaving you still benefit from Muscle Memory.

  4. #4
    will you cant just call it extremely bad, thats overdoing it a bit ^^
    But yes, if you're only jab+TPing, any extra chi isn't really needed. if you use a jab+BoK instead to consume the extra Chi, you do a little more healing (a lot more healing if AoE fight), but lose the 1% max mana gained.
    If you need the 1% mana, you can then just instead spend the extra Chi on unmuscled TPs, which is still a free 1% mana gained, and still dose some healing. (for 1 gcd)
    But I guess we can safely assume that we wont only be using Jab+TP in 5.2, so we should safely be able to put the extra Chi into usefull Uplift+Envelope healing.
    (and if nither is currently needed, you're not spammhealing the tank, nore is the raid takeing a lot of dmg => lullphase => use it in muscleless TP for managain)

  5. #5
    Stood in the Fire Yorgl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Paris
    Posts
    362
    As we probably still will use ReM on CD, we will have "extra" chi anyway. I think it's intended for us to use Uplift or EnvM in this case !

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Yorgl View Post
    As we probably still will use ReM on CD, we will have "extra" chi anyway. I think it's intended for us to use Uplift or EnvM in this case !
    True, but it isn't a very appealing mechanic to completely overheal if you don't want to waste resources :s

  7. #7
    Stood in the Fire Yorgl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Paris
    Posts
    362
    Well actually in an environment where the uplift or EnvM represent OH, that means there is practically no raid or tank damage. Not only will this be unlikely (or very temporary inwhich case you can just bank Chi, I guess), but it also means that in this case no heal output is really needed so you can just hold the rotation to regen until things got heated again.

    Btw, Asc might be really useful in that regard, to bank more chi for fights where damage come and go by phases, rather than being steady. Don't you think ?

  8. #8
    I was trying to read this relating to real life muscle memory and what you mean. Then I realized Muscle Memory is an in game ability. gg
    Quote Originally Posted by Extremity View Post
    I like turtles. I would like turtle-based tier sets. I would like a turtle shell helmet, and perhaps a cheeseburger backpack and a chestpiece that simply places a red gemstone on my bellybutton.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Klog View Post
    I was trying to read this relating to real life muscle memory and what you mean. Then I realized Muscle Memory is an in game ability. gg
    LOL the header might seem a bit ambiguous in that regard but what did you expect from a monk forum?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yorgl View Post
    Well actually in an environment where the uplift or EnvM represent OH, that means there is practically no raid or tank damage. Not only will this be unlikely (or very temporary inwhich case you can just bank Chi, I guess), but it also means that in this case no heal output is really needed so you can just hold the rotation to regen until things got heated again.

    Btw, Asc might be really useful in that regard, to bank more chi for fights where damage come and go by phases, rather than being steady. Don't you think ?
    That's currently one of the reasons for using Ascension, which allows for the possibility of greater control over your chi and banking more chi for a phase where you will need to use them for uplift or chi burst. As I said, PS and Chi Brew in particular will devalue in such a way that Ascension will be a better choice, even if it remains as "that talent you pick because the other 2 won't have any worth".

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Yorgl View Post
    Well actually in an environment where the uplift or EnvM represent OH, that means there is practically no raid or tank damage. Not only will this be unlikely (or very temporary inwhich case you can just bank Chi, I guess), but it also means that in this case no heal output is really needed so you can just hold the rotation to regen until things got heated again.

    Btw, Asc might be really useful in that regard, to bank more chi for fights where damage come and go by phases, rather than being steady. Don't you think ?
    Everyone keeps mentioning Enveloping Mists as if it's a button even worth pressing. Since it's nerf, Uplift does about half of the healing on a target than EM would do over its entire duration, plus the fact that it heals instantly and thus is much less likely to overheal. It's not bad for tank healing, but if you're tank healing then you're getting your Chi from Soothing Mist, not Jab.

    To try and make it more clear, let me show how much more restricted Chi usage is in 5.2.

    On live, we can use Chi to Uplift, Enveloping Mist, Tiger Palm, Blackout Kick, or Chi S/B/W (sphere, burst, wave). This makes Chi pretty valuable as you can use it for just about anything you like. We've got an AoE heal in there, a single-target heal with Chi Wave, a big HoT, a semi-smart raid heal, and a couple of contributers to Fistweaving smarthealing.

    In 5.2, we can use Chi to Uplift, Enveloping Mist, and only Chi from Jab will be good for TP or BoK. This is kind of the same as the Holy Paladin model, except their Enveloping Mist is instant and their Uplift is a smart heal. I don't like this because it makes raid healing almost entirely dependent on having Renewing Mist up and on the right targets.

    Of course, Mistweavers will still be fine because of Chi S/B/W and Chi Torpedo, free spells that do decent raid healing, but have cooldowns. I don't like this, not for balance reasons, but because I think we have a fun and deep class going here with our Chi-spenders and Chi-generators, and removing spending options kind of cheapens Chi as a whole and makes it more about being a mana regen mechanic than alternating between two sets of abilities. It also makes Ascension basically the common sense talent for almost all situations because using Chi for throughput that was gained somewhere other than via Jab will be pretty bad, and frankly I find Ascension to be a rather boring talent. I play a Mistweaver because it has more options than any other healing spec, and it's fun to be able to take advantage of those because it makes me feel like a skilled player when I pick the right things to do. Taking away meaningful choices kind of sucks.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    Of course, Mistweavers will still be fine because of Chi S/B/W and Chi Torpedo, free spells that do decent raid healing, but have cooldowns. I don't like this, not for balance reasons, but because I think we have a fun and deep class going here with our Chi-spenders and Chi-generators, and removing spending options kind of cheapens Chi as a whole and makes it more about being a mana regen mechanic than alternating between two sets of abilities. It also makes Ascension basically the common sense talent for almost all situations because using Chi for throughput that was gained somewhere other than via Jab will be pretty bad, and frankly I find Ascension to be a rather boring talent. I play a Mistweaver because it has more options than any other healing spec, and it's fun to be able to take advantage of those because it makes me feel like a skilled player when I pick the right things to do. Taking away meaningful choices kind of sucks.
    This paragraph sums up the changes pretty well, and the direction mistweaver is taking.

  12. #12
    I agree w/ totaltotemic, but I still think there will be situations where Chi Brew will be advantageous.

    Doing a controlled burst of 4x uplift (2 with stored Chi + 2 based upon Chi Brew chi) will still be necessary in some situations. It's a strong mini raid cooldown ATM when you need the healing *fast*.

  13. #13
    I've been thinking about this issue for a couple of days, would having Muscle Memory stack up to say 5 with a buff timer of 2 minutes help this issue? This could also double as a burst smart heal option if you were to dump all 5 charges in rapid succession.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by jinzeng View Post
    I agree w/ totaltotemic, but I still think there will be situations where Chi Brew will be advantageous.

    Doing a controlled burst of 4x uplift (2 with stored Chi + 2 based upon Chi Brew chi) will still be necessary in some situations. It's a strong mini raid cooldown ATM when you need the healing *fast*.
    Mini raid cooldown? It is a raid cooldown, a 14 target uplift can do well in excess of 700,000 healing including mastery procs.
    Last edited by Reglitch; 2013-02-12 at 11:43 PM.
    old mistweaver probably still better than u

  15. #15
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Beach City
    Posts
    8,778
    I think they should really consider adding another ability to Mistweavers that spends Chi. Preferably a melee ability.

  16. #16
    Just nerfed muscle memory with no compensation to eminence, :/
    old mistweaver probably still better than u

  17. #17
    YAY MOAR NERF YAY
    Fucking stupid class i decided to make my main

  18. #18
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Beach City
    Posts
    8,778
    I'm really not understanding what Blizzard is trying to do with this spec. These changes really aren't making any sense.

  19. #19
    Titan apepi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Mostly harmless
    Posts
    12,609
    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    Just nerfed muscle memory with no compensation to eminence, :/
    To be fair mistwevers are doing way too much damage rn.
    Time...line? Time isn't made out of lines. It is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round. ~ Caboose

  20. #20
    It's funny though since we already knew they would nerf our damage. :P

    Oh wait, it isn't funny. >.<

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •