1. #1
    Herald of the Titans Simulacrum's Avatar
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    Holy Radiance vs. Divine Light: The case for Daybreak and Holy Radiance

    So I've been using holy radiance in my 10man runs very frequently even outside of aoe situations, and I wondered if what I was doing is as stupid as it should be - I shouldn't be spamming an aoe heal outside of situations that require it, after all - and if it is, how am I still doing pretty well? I decided to sit down and try to compare the alternatives.

    Now, as healers we're faced with lots of different situations that require different tactics, and obviously this doesn't apply to all of them, but I was interested in seeing how holy radiance measures up to divine light, a spell I'm convinced is a terrible waste of mana and casting time in nearly all situations. It's horribly mana inefficient compared to casting holy light in situations where more than one person has taken damage (and barely any more HPS, if at all, thanks to HL's 100% beacon transfer), it does less HPS than flash of light spam in situations where you don't care about mana efficiency, and it takes far too long to cast in situations where you need on-demand healing right now. It really does everything poorly.

    The only situation where I can imagine using it is where I need more non-aoe HPS than holy light can provide, but I also don't need so much of it, or need it so fast, that I want to cast flash of light, and in this niche I believe that it in fact competes directly with holy radiance most of the time, and is an inferior alternative in nearly every situation. Why? Because of Daybreak, which doubles the non-beaconed healing of the next holy shock.

    Essentially, I believe that in any situation where you might want to cast DL, HR is a better choice if you can follow it up with a HS before the next HR cast.

    The alternatives compared:

    DL+HS costs 31200 mana, while HR+HS costs 29440 mana, making HR+HS surprisingly cheaper.
    The time it takes to cast HR and DL is the same, so we'll ignore that.

    Stats used, based loosely on my character, assuming 33% mastery:
    HS: 40k + mastery, with 25% bonus crit; 50% beacon
    DB: Same as HS; no beacon, but works with mastery
    DL: 70k + mastery; 50% beacon
    HR: 30k single, 15k secondary + mastery; 15% beacon

    Caveat: I'm not good enough with math to figure out off the top of my head what relative increase 25% crit adds to spells after considering every spell's crit chance, so I just assume that a 25% increased chance to crit means 25% more healing, when it's actually less, but eh this is just napkin math so it's okay right?

    Anyway...

    Healing a single beaconed target:
    DL+HS heals ~159,6k, for ~5,12 HPM, and generates 2 HP
    HR+HS heals ~172,9k, for ~5,87 HPM, and generates 2 HP - Winner!

    Looks pretty weird... but HR is a better heal to cast on the beacon than DL is, if you follow it up with a HS. DL for 70k at 33% mastery is 93,1k, while a HS in the same situation is 66,5k, and HR is 39,9k. I lose 53,2k from using HR on the single target, but double the heal of the HS, gaining 66,5k, resulting in a small net gain... and this is the best possible situation for DL; it only gets worse from here.

    Healing a target more than 10yd from beacon:
    DL+HS heals ~219,6k, for ~7,04 HPM, and generates 1 HP
    HR+HS heals ~202,4k, for ~6,86 HPM, and generates 2 HP - Winner!

    In this situation DL+HS would win, if not for the added HP gain from HR+HS, which I haven't bothered to put a value on, but is easily above 60k with EF, not counting DP procs, making HR+HS by far the best alternative; no contest at all.

    If the target is within 10yd of beacon; HR cast on beacon:
    HR+HS heals ~222.1k, for ~7,54 HPM, and generates 2 HP

    2 targets within 10yd, HR doesn't hit the beacon:
    HR+HS heals ~224,6k, for ~7,63 HPM, and generates 2 HP
    3 targets within 10yd, HR doesn't hit the beacon:
    HR+HS heals ~246,8k, for ~8,38 HPM, and generates 2 HP

    etc...

    The values are slightly skewed in favour of HR+HS thanks to the crit thing I mentioned, but I think that this demonstrates my point well enough already. Even in the worst case situation, even when healing a single beaconed target, you'd still get more healing out of HR+HS than DL+HS, and even in 10m there are practically always two ranged, or melee, standing close enough to each other, allowing for some aoe healing; usually there are more.

    Unless I'm is missing something obvious, I see very little reason to ever cast DL, unless you would not be able to fit in a HS before casting your second HR, which currently means that as long as you have either the current PvE (for lower CD) or PvP (more HP means more time spent casting EF in between other spells, making it more likely you won't have to cast DL at those times) set bonuses, I don't see myself ever casting DL. The only exception might be if I desperately need to single target heal only one player, who is stacked up on top of someone so that daybreak's healing would turn into overhealing (though even then, DB still applies its mastery shield and refreshes existing shields, which is often useful).

    Am I wrong? I'm leaning towards the likelyhood that I am, because I'm just so bad at math that it seems very unlikely to me that I would be able to notice this when much more adept people apparently haven't (at least I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere).

    Hopefully I'm not missing something so super obvious that it being pointed out will fill me with such shame that I'll dread posting here again

    Please point out where I'm wrong if I am, as is very likely. Right now I just don't even cast DL in raids (or at all) anymore, outside of situations so extremely rare that the only time where I really end up using it anymore is with GoAK, and even that guy I tend to use with EF instead (to extend the haste buff). I cast maybe 3-4 DLs in total the last raid I did, and I want to make sure that what I'm doing isn't in fact totally retarded. In fact, thinking about the value of holy power right now, I'd say it's probably even better to cast HR on single targets even without making use of daybreak.

    thanks for reading through all that stuff
    Last edited by Simulacrum; 2013-02-07 at 05:46 AM.
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  2. #2
    I only do healing in LFR and dungeons but something that also gives more favor to Holy Radiance is the fact that everyone it heals refreshes any mastery shield you've already put on them. Same with the Holy Shock AOE portion.

  3. #3
    Well I guess it really depends on your role, your healer composition, if you are doing heroic modes or not, etc.

    Do you 3-heal content often, forcing you to makes HR overheal+IH worth casting to try to keep up on the meter ?
    Or do you 2-heal heroic content with specific assignments to each healer ?

    Besides, glyph of beacon of light + a macro to ling DL and Beacon can be very efficient when 2-3 players take high damage and are spread out.

    So yeah, in some situation HR is better, even if it hits only 2-3 players, and sometimes, even if the entire raid is low, your job might just be to top-off tanks first. Like on H will for instance. If you play around and cast HR on raid instead of DL on tanks, welcome to the wiping fever


    But yeah, HR is a good spell. But I don't think it is possible to state : DL is useless and HR is king.

  4. #4
    With the added crit from other buffs, the HS crit chance is actually around 40% so your numbers will be higher for HR+HS combo. That being said, I'm not sure if the 25% crit is best factored into this situation by simply applying a +crit% heal as every holy shock you do won't be a daybreak cast. That being said, there's also the chance to crit for other spells which will benefit your big casts like DL a lot more if you're only using HR on one target. If you redo the the calculations to see how much your beacon target is actually being healed in all of the situations you mentioned and taking into account how much illuminated healing you're stacking as your healing will part of the time be overhealing, then you may see some different values.

  5. #5
    Pit Lord Mehman's Avatar
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    HR and DL costs equally much mana, 21.6k. HS costs 9.6k.

    So if you're willing to use almost 50% mana more on some 10-20k more healing, go nuts. Of course if you're over gearing content and don't need the mana, sure you can do that. But in all likelyhood, if you're in the need to press out more healing like that you aren't over geared and as such will need the mana

  6. #6
    Blademaster Mindyourbaal's Avatar
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    HR may be more healing overall but a DL will boost someone easily 30% of their health, so when one person is taking heavy damage you'll have to cast a lot more HR to do the same healing on them as one DL. This means more mana, more cast time. Yes padding the meter is fun but it is not always practical to shoot for highest hps like it is with dps. It isn't that simple.
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  7. #7
    Herald of the Titans Simulacrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by metasaigneur View Post
    Well I guess it really depends on your role, your healer composition, if you are doing heroic modes or not, etc.

    Do you 3-heal content often, forcing you to makes HR overheal+IH worth casting to try to keep up on the meter ?
    Or do you 2-heal heroic content with specific assignments to each healer ?

    Besides, glyph of beacon of light + a macro to ling DL and Beacon can be very efficient when 2-3 players take high damage and are spread out.

    So yeah, in some situation HR is better, even if it hits only 2-3 players, and sometimes, even if the entire raid is low, your job might just be to top-off tanks first. Like on H will for instance. If you play around and cast HR on raid instead of DL on tanks, welcome to the wiping fever


    But yeah, HR is a good spell. But I don't think it is possible to state : DL is useless and HR is king.
    Well, I think I pretty well established that HR is better, even if it only hits one player, even if that one player that you're casting it on is the beacon (the best possible situation for DL). If you're casting it on someone other than the beacon, then the 1HP gained makes up for the healing lost many times over.

    If your job was just to top off tanks fast, then - well, first of all you'd want to cast FoL not DL, but even assuming you didn't want to use that - you'd want to cast HR instead of DL, since HR+HS heals more than DL+HS on a single target for less mana (and you always want to cast HS on cooldown, unless you desperately need a cast+HS to land at the same time within the time of a GCD for the added burst healing). If you have the luxury to cast HS on someone other than the tank, then you also have the luxury to not cast DL on the tank.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehman View Post
    HR and DL costs equally much mana, 21.6k. HS costs 9.6k.

    So if you're willing to use almost 50% mana more on some 10-20k more healing, go nuts. Of course if you're over gearing content and don't need the mana, sure you can do that. But in all likelyhood, if you're in the need to press out more healing like that you aren't over geared and as such will need the mana
    Incorrect. I logged on and cast HR and DL a few times to make sure that the tooltips aren't incorrect, and as far as I can tell they're not. DL costs more mana than HR; as according to their tooltips. Even if this was the case (which it's not), HR would stil be superior, it's just another argument against DL.

    It's not "50% mana more on some 10-20k more healing", and I don't understand how you got to that conclusion. It's less mana for more healing. Unless you're comparing DL/HR to HS? Obviously, if you have the luxury to just cast HS to heal people, then this doesn't apply, because you don't need to cast either spell.

    I've been doing this since I was running around in 465+ gear in HoF for the first time; it's not an overgearing thing (though I did use spirit flask and food then, and we mostly 3 healed instead of 2 healed like now). In any case... if I had mana problems I'd be using HL more, not DL. This thread isn't about HR vs. HL, it's about HR vs. DL. Though HL vs. DL would be another interesting comparison...

    Quote Originally Posted by monikasun88 View Post
    With the added crit from other buffs, the HS crit chance is actually around 40% so your numbers will be higher for HR+HS combo. That being said, I'm not sure if the 25% crit is best factored into this situation by simply applying a +crit% heal as every holy shock you do won't be a daybreak cast. That being said, there's also the chance to crit for other spells which will benefit your big casts like DL a lot more if you're only using HR on one target. If you redo the the calculations to see how much your beacon target is actually being healed in all of the situations you mentioned and taking into account how much illuminated healing you're stacking as your healing will part of the time be overhealing, then you may see some different values.
    Every holy shock *I* do is a daybreak cast, as long as daybreak would be needed (and in situations where it isn't warranted this comparison is irrelevant because you wouldn't be casting DL or HR).

    I did account for beacon heals when healing secondary targets, and accounted for HR's 15% transfer and daybreak's 0% transfer.

    Accounting for the relative crit chances properly would make DL seem better than I make it seem (as is actually the case), but I don't think it'd be anywhere close to better enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mindyourbaal View Post
    HR may be more healing overall but a DL will boost someone easily 30% of their health, so when one person is taking heavy damage you'll have to cast a lot more HR to do the same healing on them as one DL. This means more mana, more cast time. Yes padding the meter is fun but it is not always practical to shoot for highest hps like it is with dps. It isn't that simple.
    You do not cast several HRs on one person in a row, I was explicit about that several times. You cast HR then follow it up with a HS; this will heal the target more than a DL followed up by a HS, for less mana, for the same cast time.

    Anyway, I've even revised my original positon, which was that HR is only worth casting over DL if you follow it up with a HS. To reiterate, considering the power of holy power, I think healing single targets with HR is superior to healing them with DL, even without following it up with HS. The additional HP gained from casting HR on non-beaconed targets will provide more EFs, which take the place of heals that would otherwise have been DLs.

    It will be more mana efficient, and provide more HPS, albeit slightly more spread out. This only applies if HS isn't used though, if HS is used then it's more burst healing as well.

    Healing is about keeping people alive, which is about HPS. There's no way around that, and saying otherwise is gibberish. It's about on-demand HPS, and it's about sustained HPS, but in either case it's about HPS (abilities like hands notwithstanding). As I'm arguing here, HR+HS will provide more on-demand HPS (the type that saves lives, which is what I think you're saying is what would make DL superior it if provided more of it, but it doesn't), and more sustained HPS (the kind that prevents wipes to weak healers), and do it all for less mana spent.
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    “Ladies, said dr Johnson, “I can congratulate you on being able to look them up.”

  8. #8
    DL and Radiance have the same mana cost, you probably just have the 2 set bonus that lowers Holy Radiance mana cost by 10%.

  9. #9
    Herald of the Titans Simulacrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cairhiin View Post
    DL and Radiance have the same mana cost, you probably just have the 2 set bonus that lowers Holy Radiance mana cost by 10%.
    shit, you're right; I forgot that bonus existed
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  10. #10
    Bloodsail Admiral Elovan's Avatar
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    Did some math on my own, will edit post soon to include it, but in summary, HR+HS will generate more HPS and HPM total in most situations than DL+HS with the PvE 2 piece, but when the tanks need healing, DL+HS provides more tank HPS and HPM than HR+HS.

    Edit: Math!

    Using napkin math values:

    25k SP, 15% crit, 30% mastery
    DL = 68k healing, 21.6k mana, will transfer 50% to beacon
    HR = 28k healing, 19.44k mana, will heal within 10yd for 14k, all healing transfers 15% to beacon
    HS = 38k healing, 9.6k mana, will transfer 50% to beacon, if used after HR procs DB
    DB = 38k healing divided among targets within 10yd, no transfer to beacon

    Assuming a 10 man raid with 2 tanks and 2 melee stacked together, Tank 1 is beaconed and Tank 2 is recipient of heals:

    DL+HS = 68k(1+.15+.3+.5) + 38k(1+.3+.3+.5) = 212.4k healing total
    Tank 1 = 53k healing received, Tank 2 = 159.4k healing received, Tank total = 212.4k healing
    Total HPM = 6.8, Tank HPM = 6.8
    Total HPS = 55, Tank HPS = 55

    HR+HS = 28k(1+.15+.3+.15) + 14k(1+.15+.3+.15)*2 + 14k(1+.15+.3) + 38k(1+.3+.3+.5) + 38k(1+.15+.3) = 249.8k healing total
    Tank 1 = 61.5k healing received, Tank 2 = 115.2k healing received, Tank total = 176.7k healing
    Total HPM = 8.6, Tank HPM = 6.1
    Total HPS = 64.7, Tank HPS = 45.8

    While the total HPM and HPS of HR+HS is indeed higher than DL+HS, the Tank HPM and HPS favors using DL+HS. The more people stacked up, the smaller HR+HS Tank HPM and HPS gets, further encouraging DL+HS for dealing with Tank damage.

    As an aside, if the beaconed tank is not stacked up with the group described above, it reduces HR+HS down to:
    Tank HPM = 4.9
    Tank HPS = 36.9
    Making DL+HS even better whenever the beaconed target won't be receiving the splash healing from HR and DB.

    So it all depends on what kind of damage is going out, who needs the healing most, and what you and your co-healers are assigned to handle.

    Edit2: One thing I did not take into account that I forgot to mention was that HR+HS will still net you 2 Holy Power compared to DL+HS's 1. While this obviously shifts the balance, I personally do not believe it will make HR+HS definitively better for handling tank damage, which is the kind of damage Divine Light is designed for.
    Last edited by Elovan; 2013-02-07 at 10:23 PM.

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