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  1. #1

    Healing Wave consuming Tidal Waves

    This has got to be the most annoying aspect of tank healing as a shaman, it was a problem through cata, and still continues to be. Does anyone else find this frustrating? I want to top a person off, but if I do so using healing wave then I won't have Tidal Waves when I need to throw out a GHW, yes I could glyph riptide and use it every two casts, but that's inefficient and defeats the purpose of Healing Wave altogether, and more importantly it requires a global cooldown. Give us a glyph that disables healing wave from being affected by tidal waves, or a glyph that removes the global cooldown from riptide, or let us stack tidal waves past 2 stacks.

  2. #2
    I don't really find GHW to be that useful under normal circumstances. HS with the crit buff is more beneficial. If Tidal waves is an issue for you use the glyph of RT.

  3. #3
    The Patient Dorac's Avatar
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    You get 3 casts of HS/HW/GHW between each riptide CD. So one of those casts wont have tidal waves and if your strickly tank healing, I dont see that being much of an issue unless the tank gets hit hard and you gotta toss out a HS without the extra 30% crit. Like the guy above me said, use RT glyph if its that much of an issue though I personally like having the instant heal from RT when tank healing. Your personal choice.

  4. #4
    I like having the instant healing from RT as well, and as I already mentioned, the global cooldown required to renew your Tidal Waves stacks makes it seem like punishment for using HW. maybe it's my gear level but using HS I just can't keep up the mana, has it become more efficient since Cata? I just started playing again as well as the group I'm with, so our first raid getting to will of the emperor the spike damage on tanks in blues was brutal (no they weren't getting hit by devastating combo), my mana regen is less than stellar as well. I guess I'm used to GHW being my main ability for healing tanks as it has been for the last two expansions. It would be nice to be able to throw out a healing wave inbetween without greatly slowing down the cast of my GHW, seems like a QoL issue more than anything. Stricktly tank healing is where this is occuring, will of the emperor last night is where this renewed my agitation with this issue, where the only healing necessary was on tanks except during titan gas.

  5. #5
    Ever thought of using Chain Heal to as your Tidal Waves generator in this situation?

  6. #6
    Again, thats another global cooldown, and wasted mana, completely defeating the purpose of HW altogether. Not to mention how very situational chain heal is in 10 mans. Having both a priest and holy pally the disparity between playing either of those and my resto shaman is night and day, i.e. they don't get punished for using their efficient heals. I'm not saying they are better healers, or have better utilities, I am very happy with the state of resto, and have been even since Cata release, despite their shortcomings at the time. Doing heroic content when it was relevant through Cata I found this frustrating so it's not a matter of the content in which I'm healing. I'm quite shocked to see how this doesn't irk anyone else, maybe I haven't reach the content/gear point in this tier yet to the point where HS can be used with little consequence, but I would happily use a glyph spot on many fights to remove the interaction of HW with Tidal Waves.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Barrun View Post
    Again, thats another global cooldown, and wasted mana, completely defeating the purpose of HW altogether. Not to mention how very situational chain heal is in 10 mans. Having both a priest and holy pally the disparity between playing either of those and my resto shaman is night and day, i.e. they don't get punished for using their efficient heals. I'm not saying they are better healers, or have better utilities, I am very happy with the state of resto, and have been even since Cata release, despite their shortcomings at the time. Doing heroic content when it was relevant through Cata I found this frustrating so it's not a matter of the content in which I'm healing. I'm quite shocked to see how this doesn't irk anyone else, maybe I haven't reach the content/gear point in this tier yet to the point where HS can be used with little consequence, but I would happily use a glyph spot on many fights to remove the interaction of HW with Tidal Waves.
    Shaman's are not strong in 10man raiding. Both priest and paladin kind of strive in that environment. When it comes to 25man raid (what I have experience in) nothing will beat a shaman.

    I don't see the good in removing HW from Tidal Waves. A lot of high end progression healing, especially conservative aoe healing comes down to keeping HR down and a rotation of Chain Heal + 2x Healing Wave. I can't even think of a fight where you would want to use a glyph like that.
    Envy <Exodus>

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  8. #8
    Wow.. a surprising amount of backlash for an optional glyph idea.
    I however fully support this, when i'm casting Healing Wave, I'm spamming on a tank, like low stacks of lei-shi for instance. Generally, if I'm casting HW, I do not need this cast shortened, and would like to "save" my tidal waves for GHW/HS when it's MUCH more needed.

    Edit: Even the talk about HS being useful (which I've cast more this expansion than all throughout cata, it's phenomenally better than it was in cata) provides a larger incentive for HW not to be consumed.
    Last edited by Swarles; 2013-02-07 at 10:33 PM.

  9. #9
    Shaman's are not strong in 10man raiding. Both priest and paladin kind of strive in that environment. When it comes to 25man raid (what I have experience in) nothing will beat a shaman.
    Yes shaman are amazing for healing in 25, healing rain and chain heal are both wonderful, and tidal waves works great when it comes to that; but why should that limit our effectiveness in 10 man raiding? Don't you think a minor tweak to how Tidal Waves works could vastly improve our performance in 10 mans, while making a less than marginal difference in 25 mans. I'm not asking to be a disc priest or holy pally, I would just like the option to make it so casting our basic heal doesn't punish us.

    I would like reiterate, this isn't a complaint to how effective shaman are at healing, I'm very happy with the performance I can put out in 10 mans. This is just a discussion regarding a mechanic that has been in place for a while, and has surprisingly never been acknowledge.
    Last edited by Barrun; 2013-02-08 at 02:09 AM.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Barrun View Post
    I would just like the option to make it so casting our basic heal doesn't punish us.
    You do realise that the base cast time is the same of a paladin's holy light, druids nourish etc. That's like saying if a paladins holy shock doesn't crit, his next HL/DL/HR cast is punished. Try thinking of it as a benefit using it under tidal waves rather than it being a punishment without.

    After all in between riptides it's only one cast that won't be affected by TW, and even then there's other spell options to fill the time before riptide comes back up.

  11. #11
    I do realize the base cast time is the same as the basic heal for other healing classes, and I never suggested or implied that I thought it shouldn't be that way. Really, if you can read, as you would have seen, I want it to be the same. Bringing other class mechanics into this discussion is quite irrelevant because each class has unique mechanics/procs that modify their healing. The logic you used referencing Infusion of Light is completely befuddled, Infusion of Light is a chance proc and in no way is a parallel mechanic to Tidal Waves - to make it clear, Tidal Waves procs from every cast of Riptide - it's a fundamental part of a "rotation" (for lack of better words) when trying to tank heal on certain fights. Infusion of Light occurs on a crit(random) of Holy Shock and acts as a bonus to the many single target healing tools paladins have; both effects reduce the cast times of heals - that is the only thing at all comparable between the two. Thinking of it as a benefit is exactly the point I'm trying to make, it's not a benefit, it's a detriment. As much as I hate to bring other classes into this, other healers have many numerous more tools in their kit besides Divine Light and Greater Heal to keep a target up, the only thing we have is Greater Healing Wave, and that's fine, because Tidal Waves is wonderful and makes working with our limited set of single target healing spells a suitable alternative to the tool-set other healers have, but when we don't have Tidal Waves we are at a severe deficit when it comes to keeping a tank up, being able to top off a target with a Healing Wave without gimping my next GHW would be nice. The backlash to this thread really is astounding, I guess the face-roll play style for resto in 25 mans really has people clueless about the dynamics of the abilities resto shaman have to work with in every other avenue of the game.

  12. #12
    I don't see how healing wave consuming tidal waves is that much of a problem. In fact, I think it's a good thing and I'd much rather keep it this way than have it changed. I'm pretty sure a lot of you guys underestimate the power of healing wave. With tidal waves up, it's a 1,5 sec cast that hits for 50-60k, depending on trinket proccs. And you also have to remember that HW, along with GHW, gives you the most mana back from resurgence.

    And about the riptide glyph, I think it's really awful. I know there's a little gap between your two quick HW:s/GHW:s, but it's not more than a global. And there are almost always something to do with that global, such as placing totems, recalling totems, using UE, moving out of shit etc. Imo, the glyph doesn't really do you anything good, since spamming riptide on the whole raid is very mana consuming and not recommended at all. It's much better to keep the 6 second cooldown and spend your globals and time in between your tidal waves wisely.
    Last edited by Gasmastarn; 2013-02-08 at 03:22 PM.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Barrun View Post
    I do realize the base cast time is the same as the basic heal for other healing classes, and I never suggested or implied that I thought it shouldn't be that way. Really, if you can read, as you would have seen, I want it to be the same. Bringing other class mechanics into this discussion is quite irrelevant because each class has unique mechanics/procs that modify their healing. The logic you used referencing Infusion of Light is completely befuddled, Infusion of Light is a chance proc and in no way is a parallel mechanic to Tidal Waves - to make it clear, Tidal Waves procs from every cast of Riptide - it's a fundamental part of a "rotation" (for lack of better words) when trying to tank heal on certain fights. Infusion of Light occurs on a crit(random) of Holy Shock and acts as a bonus to the many single target healing tools paladins have; both effects reduce the cast times of heals - that is the only thing at all comparable between the two. Thinking of it as a benefit is exactly the point I'm trying to make, it's not a benefit, it's a detriment. As much as I hate to bring other classes into this, other healers have many numerous more tools in their kit besides Divine Light and Greater Heal to keep a target up, the only thing we have is Greater Healing Wave, and that's fine, because Tidal Waves is wonderful and makes working with our limited set of single target healing spells a suitable alternative to the tool-set other healers have, but when we don't have Tidal Waves we are at a severe deficit when it comes to keeping a tank up, being able to top off a target with a Healing Wave without gimping my next GHW would be nice. The backlash to this thread really is astounding, I guess the face-roll play style for resto in 25 mans really has people clueless about the dynamics of the abilities resto shaman have to work with in every other avenue of the game.
    You are oddly aggressive with your suggestions, and it seems you don't take any kind of differing opinion well. You didn't actually expect everyone to just turn over and agree, did you?

    Some people are happy with the way it works. Personally, I love my fast Healing Waves, as it should be your #1 go-to heal anyway.

  14. #14
    Sorry I didn't intend to come off as aggressive, the counter-points presented, or even just dismissal of the subject without any counter-points presented, seemed based off of assumptions of things I didn't state or suggestion; being entirely unrelated to the issue which I was posting about or coming from a place of not understanding my initial post. Gasmastarn's post is precisely the opinion type I was interested in, an evaluation of the actual pros and cons of the abilities current state. I think the disparity of the opinion, or even understanding of the issue really comes down to the format in which people play, 2 healing 10 mans vs. 6 healing 25 mans, each of which put vastly different play-style requirements upon a resto shaman;10 man's being where consuming Tidal Waves with a Healing Wave can really present an issue. I never took to consider the mana gain from Resurgence vs. mana cost of Healing Wave into consideration, and nor have I considered the increased potency of Healing Wave from any temporary intellect or spell-power buffs which could potentially save me the mana of a GHW by using HW instead, in which case having Healing Wave hastened by Tidal Waves would be beneficial. Those are two very valid points which promote discussion of the topic, not dismissal from players who likely don't use anything other than Healing Rain/Riptide/Chain Heal in a raid environment.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Barrun View Post
    10 man's being where consuming Tidal Waves with a Healing Wave can really present an issue.
    I'm still trying to figure out how this would be an issue. The fact that HW is affected by tidal waves and consumes a stack is what makes or brakes the spell. A HW with a consistent 2,5 second cast is pretty much useless. Its HPS won't be enough, and you'd probably be left with using more GHW/HS than before and that will drain your mana pretty quickly.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Barrun View Post
    Yes shaman are amazing for healing in 25, healing rain and chain heal are both wonderful, and tidal waves works great when it comes to that; but why should that limit our effectiveness in 10 man raiding? Don't you think a minor tweak to how Tidal Waves works could vastly improve our performance in 10 mans, while making a less than marginal difference in 25 mans. I'm not asking to be a disc priest or holy pally, I would just like the option to make it so casting our basic heal doesn't punish us.

    I would like reiterate, this isn't a complaint to how effective shaman are at healing, I'm very happy with the performance I can put out in 10 mans. This is just a discussion regarding a mechanic that has been in place for a while, and has surprisingly never been acknowledge.
    To tell you the truth your approach is all wrong. First off you probably shouldn't be tank healing, its not what we are known for. Second you are trying to do a rotation that does not work for obvious reasons. There are many "fillers" that don't require you casting another HW. In between tidal waves you should be managing HST, casting a glyphed chain heal, you can also use UE inbetween using tidal wave charges to boost a single target heal.

    Furthermore why are you topping off the tank? is he below 80% health? Is there a massive strike about to hit? Do you or any other healer not have any of your hots on him? If one of these situations isn't available you might as well not heal him and save the mana for when you do need to heal him.


    P.S Shamans are middle of the pack in 25s. Pallies and Priests are way beyond us, it will vary raid to raid depending on gear, skill, raid awareness but raidbots doesn't lie

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by shammypie View Post
    To tell you the truth your approach is all wrong. First off you probably shouldn't be tank healing, its not what we are known for. Second you are trying to do a rotation that does not work for obvious reasons. There are many "fillers" that don't require you casting another HW. In between tidal waves you should be managing HST, casting a glyphed chain heal, you can also use UE inbetween using tidal wave charges to boost a single target heal.

    Furthermore why are you topping off the tank? is he below 80% health? Is there a massive strike about to hit? Do you or any other healer not have any of your hots on him? If one of these situations isn't available you might as well not heal him and save the mana for when you do need to heal him.


    P.S Shamans are middle of the pack in 25s. Pallies and Priests are way beyond us, it will vary raid to raid depending on gear, skill, raid awareness but raidbots doesn't lie
    What you just said is what is completely wrong with healers in this game. Healing meters do not matter, it is simple mechanics that make Priests and Paladins better right now, they both have absorbs. On farm content absorbs will always produce more HPS than real healing throughput. Do you not know how shamans work? Their mastery completely relies on the raid not being topped and guess what happens on farm? People are always topped.

    Shamans are the best progression healers but one of the worst farm healers, but guess what. FARM DOESN'T MATTER
    Envy <Exodus>

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    Priest
    Monk

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Envvyy View Post
    Shaman's are not strong in 10man raiding. Both priest and paladin kind of strive in that environment. When it comes to 25man raid (what I have experience in) nothing will beat a shaman.
    Hmm I beg to differ. I've been 2 healing most heroic fights(10 man) with another resto shaman and we have both ranked on WoL on more than one occasion.

  19. #19
    I'm still trying to figure out how this would be an issue. The fact that HW is affected by tidal waves and consumes a stack is what makes or brakes the spell. A HW with a consistent 2,5 second cast is pretty much useless. Its HPS won't be enough, and you'd probably be left with using more GHW/HS than before and that will drain your mana pretty quickly.
    We should always be GCD locked, whether it's a lightning bolt or a HW, I would rather it be a HW so my tank can be at a higher health when the next big hit comes in, as opposed to using lightning bolt while my tank is at 80%, risking a large hit followed by some other source of damage (Elegon breath followed by pulsing AoE on Celestial Protectors for example). The 2.5 second cast time on HW isn't an issue if its between hits, but as it stands now, using it to get my tank from 80% to 100% risks me not having a charge of Tidal Waves when that big hit comes in and they need a large heal asap.

    To tell you the truth your approach is all wrong. First off you probably shouldn't be tank healing, its not what we are known for. Second you are trying to do a rotation that does not work for obvious reasons. There are many "fillers" that don't require you casting another HW. In between tidal waves you should be managing HST, casting a glyphed chain heal, you can also use UE inbetween using tidal wave charges to boost a single target heal.
    Yes I probably "shouldn't be tank healing", but I brought this discussion up regarding 10 mans, and in my given situation the healers are myself and a mistweaver, so I really don't have to luxury of letting a disc priest and holy pally do all the heavy lifting (when it comes to tank damage). Arguments of class homogenization is a horse beaten to death two expansions ago, so saying I "shouldn't be tank healing" is to some extent case in point; what can be done so that we aren't the ones who "shouldn't" be tank healing? its not like Healing Rain and Chain Heal are really stellar on every boss in a 10 man, so why be punished in 10 mans for our potential in 25 mans? And what can be done that wouldn't cause further imbalance? My personal opinion, is that having this option I suggested would be a substantial step in the right direction.

    Managing HST? Really? You "manage" HST? Glyphed chain heal is nice, but during fights where the raid isn't taking damage, or during circumstances where only the tanks need healing (as mentioned in the start of this discussion) chain heal is not a "filler". "Many fillers" is an over exaggeration, most of which are limited by medium to long cooldowns, Lightning Bolt is a great filler in a lot of circumstances, but again, should that be our only filler the majority of the time? And to clarify, my original suggestion was a means of allowing us to use Healing Wave as a filler without crippling our next GHW (crippled by extra cast time or a GCD used on riptide), it would be nice under certain circumstances wouldn't it?

    Furthermore why are you topping off the tank? is he below 80% health? Is there a massive strike about to hit? Do you or any other healer not have any of your hots on him? If one of these situations isn't available you might as well not heal him and save the mana for when you do need to heal him.
    Maybe it's just the current gear level of my group, but I'd much rather have my tank at 100% health than at 80% health when they're about to take a big hit. As far as other healers and hots, in a 10 man situation a diverse group of healers and external tank cooldowns isn't a luxury we get. By being able to top a tank off with Healing Wave so I don't have to use Healing Surge instead of GHW I would be saving mana, and greatly reducing the risk of a tank death from the succession of a large hit and some other source of damage (see the Elegon example above).

    As a side note I didn't start this thread as a cry over imbalance, I am very happy with the state of resto shaman, even in 10 man. I saw the "shaman's dying out" thread and figured I'd start some discussion. This topic just happens to be the one thing I find at times irksome, or less than ideal.
    Last edited by Barrun; 2013-02-08 at 08:01 PM.

  20. #20
    Managing HST? Really? You "manage" HST?
    You manage your HST by recalling it after its last tick and get all the mana back

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