1. #1

    Assassination Stats

    Alright so I'm a decent Assassination rogue but also new to it. By decent I'm ranked on a few bosses under 200 and can do some pretty good DPS, but since all I know is stats and rotation I say decent. My question is: Is getting 2550 exp really better then going with ShadowCraft? I have tried both and depending on the fight my DPS is about the same for the most part, but sometimes when I'm not capped I can REALLY tell. Currently I'm doing my OFP reforging but can't decide if ShadowCraft is giving me BS. I have thrown my rogue into ShadowCraft, askmrrobot, and wowreforge. All 3 give me something different. Below is my characters, and last logs.

    Because I'm new to the forums won't let me link this stuff, so I broke up the links.

    http:/ /us .battle .net /wow/en/character/dathremar/Fellaand/simple

    http:/ /www .worldof logs .com/reports/gfy94i8koxpvedc3/

    http:/ /www .worldof logs. com/reports/rt-cxw4pa2k7isbaezj/

  2. #2
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...e-nitty-gritty

    Your question is responded to in the opening FAQ, and a more detailed response can be found in the thread. If that doesn't clear things up, or you have additional reasoning about why the math might be wrong, please give us more to add to it.

  3. #3
    Thanks, I looked at that thread was helpful.

  4. #4
    The reason why expertise is a poor stat as Assassination is because an Envenom that is dodged still applies the Envenom buff, but it doesn't consume combo points.

    That being said, it can be really annoying to get a dodge during Shadow Blades, forcing you to either hugely clip your envenom buff or waste CPs. I personally reforge Hit (to cap) > Mastery > Expertise for this reason.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom51 View Post
    That being said, it can be really annoying to get a dodge during Shadow Blades, forcing you to either hugely clip your envenom buff or waste CPs. I personally reforge Hit (to cap) > Mastery > Expertise for this reason.
    Never reforged to exp (crit has a good-ish value at low level gear) but now that i'm starting to reach higher levels i have a "passive" 5.6% exp, which is a lot. So i don't reforge into exp apart if i can get it out from crit (which starts to lose power with more gear).

  6. #6
    So I'm at 496, you think it's a good point to start going for haste and less crit? If I'm running my mastery trinket (lfr bottle from Elegon he hates me and won't drop the normal or Heroic) I have about 7.5k mastery. I'm also at 3k crit and 3k haste give or take a bit. I am also sitting at around 5.6% exp. Thanks

  7. #7
    Ask Shadowcraft or Simulationcraft. We can give guesstimates, but those are based on prior results from the two sources I just mentioned. Shadowcraft being the easier to use, I recommend going to http://shadowcraft.mmo-mumble.com/ , plugging in your character, and hitting optimize. That should give you an idea of ideal. Regarding expertise, see the "nitty gritty" thread stickied in this forum.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Mugajak View Post
    Ask Shadowcraft or Simulationcraft. We can give guesstimates, but those are based on prior results from the two sources I just mentioned. Shadowcraft being the easier to use, I recommend going to http://shadowcraft.mmo-mumble.com/ , plugging in your character, and hitting optimize. That should give you an idea of ideal. Regarding expertise, see the "nitty gritty" thread stickied in this forum.
    Sorry bout the confusion of my last post, was replying to Coldkils post:

    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    Never reforged to exp (crit has a good-ish value at low level gear) but now that i'm starting to reach higher levels i have a "passive" 5.6% exp, which is a lot. So i don't reforge into exp apart if i can get it out from crit (which starts to lose power with more gear).
    So with that,

    Quote Originally Posted by Fellaand View Post
    So I'm at 496, you think it's a good point to start going for haste and less crit? If I'm running my mastery trinket (lfr bottle from Elegon he hates me and won't drop the normal or Heroic) I have about 7.5k mastery. I'm also at 3k crit and 3k haste give or take a bit. I am also sitting at around 5.6% exp. Thanks
    I'm going with Shadowcraft for the most part, but sometimes when I hit the optimize button it tells me Crit > Haste... and other times it is flipping it, so going off of what Coldkil said, which would be best at a 496iLvL? Currently my stats are as follows:

    Agi: 16499
    Hit: 7.63% 2593 Rating
    Mast: 72.14% 7567 Rating
    Exp: 5.65% 1921 Rating
    Haste: 6.92% 2942 Rating
    Crit: 17.25% 2669 Rating

    Mainly just seeing if you guys think it is worth flopping my Crit and Haste around? or even getting a little more haste. I can also lose a little more Exp for more Haste, or Crit.

    an example of what I am talking about, notice it rates Haste higher then Crit, yet it is telling me go for 4k Crit and only 1.8k Haste.

    http://shadowcraft.mmo-mumble.com/us...QwMVOMrmzyDQ==

    and the other side of that after I push optimize again. Showing Crit over Haste but giving more Haste...

    http://shadowcraft.mmo-mumble.com/us...lN9RTjK5t+Aw==
    Last edited by Fellaand; 2013-02-11 at 07:32 AM. Reason: Adding Shadowcraft link

  9. #9
    Legendary! Ryme's Avatar
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    Crit is better than haste in any situation that you have downtime from hitting the boss, which is near enough every single encounter these days. In any patchwerk fight, haste should exceed it though they will still co-scale very neatly - that is, when one goes up, the value of the other increases.
    I am the lucid dream
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    Crit is better than haste in any situation that you have downtime from hitting the boss, which is near enough every single encounter these days. In any patchwerk fight, haste should exceed it though they will still co-scale very neatly - that is, when one goes up, the value of the other increases.
    So I should take the first reforge option to have 4k crit and less then 2k haste? Just sounds bad for regen purposes. I will give it a shot and run LFR, and then swap I guess see which is more "comfy" for me. Thanks!

  11. #11
    Legendary! Ryme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fellaand View Post
    So I should take the first reforge option to have 4k crit and less then 2k haste? Just sounds bad for regen purposes. I will give it a shot and run LFR, and then swap I guess see which is more "comfy" for me. Thanks!
    In any co-scale situation, it is nearly always best to maintain a ratio between the stats. So, for example, if you want to favour crit: 60% crit for every 40% haste.

    The optimal ratio will vary on your gear, setup and playstyle. By virture that they are co-scaling stats that should remain very close to one another in value, with this in mind you should be able to choose which stat you want to maximise to fit your play style. If you want the constant regen of haste, or the rng cp generation and damage of crit.
    I am the lucid dream
    Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh


  12. #12
    The Patient Mutix's Avatar
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    There is no "Crit is better than Haste" or "Haste is better than crit" .. The reason shadowcraft sometimes says Crit > Haste or vice versa is because optimal DPS results from a combination of both stats rather than stacking one heavily. I.E 50% Crit and 50% Haste is better than 95% Haste and 5% Crit.

    Edit: Read what Lyme said it's pretty accurate, he just says it in a more posh way than me

  13. #13
    Ryme and Mutix explained pretty well how the two are related; as to why ShC is telling you to reforge 2 different ways, I'm pretty sure* (consult someone who works on the project or opens up the code before taking this as fact) that it reforges you based on your stat weights when you press optimize, which is giving you more haste when reforged for crit, and more crit when reforged for haste.

    In a patchwerk situation, for you, heavy crit is still coming out ahead, by all of 21 DPS. During that time (moving from crit to haste and vice versa) your stat values vary a small amount, but crit and haste are SO close together that it flips their priorities each time you reforge. In this instance, for the logic following, shadowcraft IS right, as the higher DPS reforge profile will yield higher DPS in raids.

    You'll see similar "odd" moments in warlock reforging of haste vs. mastery, although most warlocks don't understand it at all.

    More importantly, as Ryme pointed out, crit doesn't depend on your time-on-boss, and haste does. Anytime you aren't able to auto-attack (only poisons/rupture ticking) and anytime you have to run out and energy cap, haste's bonuses are nonexistant, but crit retains a small amount of its value. In "real raid" situations, crit loses value less often than haste.

    Might consider adding this topic to the nitty gritty FAQ.
    Last edited by Kael; 2013-02-11 at 12:58 PM.

  14. #14
    Alright so from everything everyone has posted the "best" reforges to have for the majority of the fights in this tier would be the 2nd ShC link where haste is slightly over Crit, and the only time that the all Crit would be better then the balanced would be in a fight where I will not be on one target most the time.

    If I am still mistaken please feel free to correct me. Thanks again.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Mugajak View Post
    Ryme and Mutix explained pretty well how the two are related; as to why ShC is telling you to reforge 2 different ways, I'm pretty sure* (consult someone who works on the project or opens up the code before taking this as fact) that it reforges you based on your stat weights when you press optimize, which is giving you more haste when reforged for crit, and more crit when reforged for haste.
    This is true, but take into account that with haste, crit and expertise so close to each other you will often find that repeatably clicking optimize will tell you to reforge differently each time (weightings are extremely dynamic).

    I think 1 important thing to take into consideration is that with the weightings so close you then will have to factor in how it affects your playstyle.
    Haste doesn't change anything.
    Expertise can occasionally cause you to proc the envenom buff with lots of energy and CP left over!
    Crit can alter your decisions rapidly by quickly changing the volume of CPs!

    So realistically when you are talking in differences < 100DPS, consider what would happen if you have to react differently and how much of a DPS loss that will be.

    To give an example. With 7.4% expertise, I was used to pooling energy and hitting envenom late (~100 energy). On the rare occasion I would get parried and be quickly overcapping on energy which is a huge DPS loss.

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