Thread: 5.2 soj pvp

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  1. #61
    The slow is gone. The passive damage from SOJ is too, apparently.

    The stacking debuff is on the target, not yourself, so stacking up 5 "Justices" just to repent the target seems a bit counter productive of the seal change, IMO. I wish it would be a SELF-buff, so that we could intelligently hot-swap with 5 stacks to unload our Holy TfB on someone, but apparently that was what caused TfB 1.0 to get nerfed in the first place.

    Now, we get to choose between FoJ OR BoG, while simultaneously requiring BOTH to be functional as a melee class.

    Huzzah.
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  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    The slow is gone. The passive damage from SOJ is too, apparently.

    The stacking debuff is on the target, not yourself, so stacking up 5 "Justices" just to repent the target seems a bit counter productive of the seal change, IMO. I wish it would be a SELF-buff, so that we could intelligently hot-swap with 5 stacks to unload our Holy TfB on someone, but apparently that was what caused TfB 1.0 to get nerfed in the first place.

    Now, we get to choose between FoJ OR BoG, while simultaneously requiring BOTH to be functional as a melee class.

    Huzzah.
    Except it's nowhere near TfB damage. Everyone who's perpetuating that it's a TfB clone is absolutely wrong. It's much worse.

  3. #63
    On a brighter side, tbf was rng this isn't. You know that if you stick on that target for 10-15 seconds you will have your stacks up, which even if you get chain cc'd they wont fall. I still believe it can be situational "ok" to use.

    The main question here is: Are all those "mini" changes address any of the issue's that ret has in both pve or pvp? I personally am very skeptical.

  4. #64
    Scarab Lord Valarius's Avatar
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    This is pure crap.

    At 5 stacks, it basically does what a Crusader Strike does, but bypasses armour and gets boosted by Inquisition right?

    I did a dummy test (no cooldowns), and self buffed my CS hits for ~30k. I'd estimate the proc to add about 40-45k damage to Templar's.

    Not exactly something I'd write home about, especially considering what a ball-ache it might be to even get 5 stacks in the first place now we're down either a steady stun or a snare.

    By comparison, my non-crit censures are at 10k/2seconds with SoT hits ~4.5k

    One other thing to note, is that I don't make it to 5 stacks of Truth before my Templar's is good to go. I'm on 4. That means to get 5 stacks of Justice (same application mechanic) for every TV I'd have to delay it till my next white swing/use another ability and potentially waste the next white swing application (it may come during the GCD).

    It's an awful design and that last comment by GC just shows what an arrogant asshole he really can be. It smacks of "if you don't like it then fuck you!". How's about this Ghosty, you do your fucking job and take criticism into account and iterate on this until you get it right.
    Last edited by Valarius; 2013-02-08 at 09:25 PM.

  5. #65
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    It may not be amazing design, but it definitely addresses TV not hitting hard. TV is going to be 400% weapon damage in a single global, + mastery. That's a lot of weapon damage, a lot of it being holy and ignoring armor.

  6. #66
    Scarab Lord Valarius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUntsAhts View Post
    It may not be amazing design, but it definitely addresses TV not hitting hard. TV is going to be 400% weapon damage in a single global, + mastery. That's a lot of weapon damage, a lot of it being holy and ignoring armor.
    It really doesn't. TV+Mastery does ~100k. This new seal procs ~45k *If you wait for 5 stacks*.

    During HA/Wings you aren't getting 5 stacks for your TVs. Heck, even after some more regular testing, my stack size of Truth (same mechanic, so it's valid testing) varies between 2 and 5. That means sometimes you'll be ready to TV with just 2 stacks (+50% damage, or less than half of CS so ~15k).

    Edit: Also worth mentioning the testing is on a stationary target. Getting 5 stacks pre-3HoPo is going to be that much harder in PvP, again devaluing this seal outside of that 1 TV you'll get with all your cooldowns popped.

    It really isn't going to be as good in practice as it sounds on paper.
    Last edited by Valarius; 2013-02-08 at 09:59 PM.

  7. #67
    Does it even sound good on paper?

    It doesn't proc mastery, is going to take a few seconds to stack...made even longer due to PvP and then after all that is going to hit for about 45k minus resil?

    Have to factor in here that now its lost its additional damage, it takes 5 hits to get to 125% extra damage, but by not using a fully stacked truth, you've just lost 12% additional damage on each hit...thats what 60%, already almost 50% of this new seal. Then sub in censure dot.

    Yeah, not really going to help us be viable in arena and it does absolute nothing to get us into RBGs. It hardly helps at all tbh

  8. #68
    Scarab Lord Valarius's Avatar
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    Exactly. I honestly would rather keep the "dead" form of Justice than let them implement this garbage and wash their hands of us while patting themselves on the back. I don't usually get annoyed at GC but his attitude on this coming patch has really pissed me off.

    He's handing us a log of dog shit and saying "It's this or nothing, kid!"

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valarius View Post
    It really doesn't. TV+Mastery does ~100k. This new seal procs ~45k *If you wait for 5 stacks*.

    During HA/Wings you aren't getting 5 stacks for your TVs. Heck, even after some more regular testing, my stack size of Truth (same mechanic, so it's valid testing) varies between 2 and 5. That means sometimes you'll be ready to TV with just 2 stacks (+50% damage, or less than half of CS so ~15k).

    Edit: Also worth mentioning the testing is on a stationary target. Getting 5 stacks pre-3HoPo is going to be that much harder in PvP, again devaluing this seal outside of that 1 TV you'll get with all your cooldowns popped.
    It really isn't going to be as good in practice as it sounds on paper.
    That's seriously underestimating TV. I'm not saying this is the end all be all fix for Ret, because it definitely won't. But consider that Oblit is something like 280% weapon damage and hits like a truck. And about the ramp up time, TV itself has a ramp up time. Of course every TV in CD's won't have it stacked, that would be pretty insane.

    And 45k minus resil isn't accounting for PvP power.

  10. #70
    Scarab Lord Valarius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUntsAhts View Post
    And 45k minus resil isn't accounting for PvP power.
    45k is an estimate based on CS damage. I'm not accounting for resil OR power for either, so the estimate is about right.

    Resil is what, ~60% reduction at about ilvl 480 with ~50% PvP power (obviously slight variations based on gemming/upgrades).

    That brings the damage down ever so slightly, it doesn't make it go up.

    Also regarding Oblit vs TV:

    OB does 230% BASE
    Multiplied by the bonuses from using a 2Hander (40% to Oblit, and 10% to all melee attacks)
    THEN adds 12.5% damage for each disease.

    My own DK's tooltip reads as follows:

    "A brutal instant attack that deals 354% weapon damage. Total damage is increased by 12.5% for each of your diseases on the target"

    With 1 disease, it'll do 398.25% damage.
    With 2 diseases, 448% (or is it 442.2%? Not entirely sure on the way it multiplies)

    That's why it hits like a truck. It has a lot of extras tacked on after the tooltip.

    Now bear in mind a DK has a proc to make it a guaranteed crit, and can hit it 3 times in a row if they have all their runes up... yeah. It will STILL beat out TV even after this stupid seal change, with TV still requiring a ridiculous ramp up by comparison.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Valarius View Post
    It really doesn't. TV+Mastery does ~100k. This new seal procs ~45k *If you wait for 5 stacks*.

    During HA/Wings you aren't getting 5 stacks for your TVs. Heck, even after some more regular testing, my stack size of Truth (same mechanic, so it's valid testing) varies between 2 and 5. That means sometimes you'll be ready to TV with just 2 stacks (+50% damage, or less than half of CS so ~15k).

    Edit: Also worth mentioning the testing is on a stationary target. Getting 5 stacks pre-3HoPo is going to be that much harder in PvP, again devaluing this seal outside of that 1 TV you'll get with all your cooldowns popped.

    It really isn't going to be as good in practice as it sounds on paper.
    Tv does 275% weapon damage currently. With 5 stacks of Seal of Justice it will do an extra 125% damage as holy damage and will also be buffed by inquisition putting it at around an extra 37%.

    That means you will get the normal Tv hit for 275% weapon damage and an extra 162% damage as Holy.

    275 + 162 = 437

    437% is A lot of damage. (That isn't including wings btw).

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyc81991 View Post
    Tv does 275% weapon damage currently. With 5 stacks of Seal of Justice it will do an extra 125% damage as holy damage and will also be buffed by inquisition putting it at around an extra 37%.

    That means you will get the normal Tv hit for 275% weapon damage and an extra 162% damage as Holy.

    275 + 162 = 437

    437% is A lot of damage. (That isn't including wings btw).
    Also that 162% ignores armor, which is also huge considering thats at LEAST 15% extra damage.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyc81991 View Post
    Tv does 275% weapon damage currently. With 5 stacks of Seal of Justice it will do an extra 125% damage as holy damage and will also be buffed by inquisition putting it at around an extra 37%.

    That means you will get the normal Tv hit for 275% weapon damage and an extra 162% damage as Holy.

    275 + 162 = 437

    437% is A lot of damage. (That isn't including wings btw).
    I already counted Inq and a quick guestimate for armour when I estimated about 45k actual damage coming out of it.

    We've got CS as the "base" (It does the same weapon % with a small amount of added damage)

    My average non-crit on cloth is ~30k. For simplicity's sake we'll go bang on 30,000 and forget about the added 700 orso damage.

    A mage has about 14k armour, or 23% reduction.

    30,000 / 0.77 = 38961. This is our unmitigated 125% weapon damage.

    38961*1.3 (Inquisition) gives us the Holy Damage total = 50649

    My quick guess of 45k wasn't that far off. It still isn't a lot of damage.

    This seal will give you an extra 50k damage if you wait for full stacks.

    As I already pointed out (and tested) I very rarely hit 5 stacks of Truth (same mechanic) before I'm able to hit TV. On average I have around 3 stacks, sometimes I hit 2 and sometimes 4 but the only time I'm hitting 5 is if I wait before I press TV for the extra stacks.

    Now in practice, you're going to wait for 5 to use your first TV during all cooldowns, that's obvious. Maybe if the mechanic is identical to Truth, you'll keep 5 stacks rolling on a secondary target for a big burst on your switch. Other than that? I just don't think it's going to do what Blizzard wants it to do.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Valarius View Post
    I already counted Inq and a quick guestimate for armour when I estimated about 45k actual damage coming out of it.

    We've got CS as the "base" (It does the same weapon % with a small amount of added damage)

    My average non-crit on cloth is ~30k. For simplicity's sake we'll go bang on 30,000 and forget about the added 700 orso damage.

    A mage has about 14k armour, or 23% reduction.

    30,000 / 0.77 = 38961. This is our unmitigated 125% weapon damage.

    38961*1.3 (Inquisition) gives us the Holy Damage total = 50649

    My quick guess of 45k wasn't that far off. It still isn't a lot of damage.

    This seal will give you an extra 50k damage if you wait for full stacks.

    As I already pointed out (and tested) I very rarely hit 5 stacks of Truth (same mechanic) before I'm able to hit TV. On average I have around 3 stacks, sometimes I hit 2 and sometimes 4 but the only time I'm hitting 5 is if I wait before I press TV for the extra stacks.

    Now in practice, you're going to wait for 5 to use your first TV during all cooldowns, that's obvious. Maybe if the mechanic is identical to Truth, you'll keep 5 stacks rolling on a secondary target for a big burst on your switch. Other than that? I just don't think it's going to do what Blizzard wants it to do.
    Pvp is about burst damage. This will give us good burst outside of Cd's which is what we need for pvp. Even without 5 stacks it will do more burst damage than Seal of Truth.

    Like I said 437% weapon damage is a lot.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyc81991 View Post
    Pvp is about burst damage. This will give us good burst outside of Cd's which is what we need for pvp. Even without 5 stacks it will do more burst damage than Seal of Truth.

    Like I said 437% weapon damage is a lot.
    Yeah I'm going to agree with nyc on this one. It's 50kish NON-CRIT tacked onto our finisher. That could go upwards of 200k+ crits in a single global. I understand crit isn't anywhere near top priority, but Inq does give us 10% so sitting around 15-20% depending on teammates isn't bad at all. 1/5 TV's hits like a damn semi-truck outside of CD's? Considering a Fist of Justice on a healer with no trinket gives us 6 seconds to do heavy damage, 437% weapon damage is pretty damn good.
    Now, this doesn't fix Ret's problem of being hella fuckin squishy, but perhaps we're just going to have to run with teammates that can help us out. Frost mages for peels and Disc/Resto for pain sup/ironbark?

    Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if we saw DK/Ret/Disc coming back. Sustained damage from Censure is nice for prolonged games, but face it, as long as Ret has 3 DPS cooldowns, it won't be a sustained class.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyc81991 View Post
    Pvp is about burst damage. This will give us good burst outside of Cd's which is what we need for pvp. Even without 5 stacks it will do more burst damage than Seal of Truth.

    Like I said 437% weapon damage is a lot.
    Maybe....but the class loses a built in Snare (a poor one, but still), you end up forced to take BoG, and there are questions over how the Seal will work with DP and HA, both of which appear to make SoJ useless whenever they proc.

    Going to have to think on it.

    EJL

  17. #77
    Been trying it on the PTR and currently it doesn't increase your damage in any way shape or form. yay bugs!

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by ExtremeActionTess View Post
    Been trying it on the PTR and currently it doesn't increase your damage in any way shape or form. yay bugs!
    When I tried it, it wasnt even putting 'justice' stacks on the target...so.....yeah, guess we have to wait till next build >.<

  19. #79
    Yep,it's bugged. Does not add any damage,it is dispelabble and lasts 8 sec. When GC said it wont be dispelabble and will last 15 seconds.

    How do these buggs even happen ? xP

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExtremeActionTess View Post
    Been trying it on the PTR and currently it doesn't increase your damage in any way shape or form. yay bugs!
    It's usually a few builds behind their internal build, so it's possible the change hasn't made it to the PTR yet.

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