Thread: 5.2 soj pvp

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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strear View Post
    Same here I think it'll be more interesting for flag aoe in rbgs now, but I'm not sure.

    My general thinking was to be more positive, I'm fed up with constants complaints, even if i understand what some are complaining about and might be justified. Theses days, I enjoy playing Retribution more than anything else, just because I feel useful for my team. I played several melee classes, but I always come back to my Ret. Yesterday I read a post of someone asking something like " Before I invest myself in my Ret, will Rets be taken in 2200 + rbgs ? ". I think that way of reasoning is more common than we can think of. But shouldn't that player first enjoy the class, what he can bring to 1500 - rbgs before ? Many players, whatever they play, from mage to priest, or warrior, most players in fact, will never reach 2200 + ratings, even with " the right class " or " fotm ". I sometimes tend to think people don't take things in consideration in the right order.

    Let's have fun, hope, try and do our best, we can do it, we already did before, and the most insisting of us surely will in the future.
    The thing is, some people are competitive and striving for 2200 is fun for them, and they will enjoy almost any class. I would argue that Ret has the illusion of being useful to a team. Ret is still in the position that almost anything we do utility-wise is dispellable. We have a defensive that is flat out worse than barkskin. A bubble that lasts for 2-3 seconds absorbs less damage than an undispellable shield wall. You get the point.

    The problem is that many people here DO enjoy playing their Ret, and it is very frustrating hugging the bottom of the barrel with Enhance. Except, Enhance is arguably better than we are, albeit slightly, because they can spam purge important buffs.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Strear View Post
    Same here I think it'll be more interesting for flag aoe in rbgs now, but I'm not sure.

    My general thinking was to be more positive, I'm fed up with constants complaints, even if i understand what some are complaining about and might be justified. Theses days, I enjoy playing Retribution more than anything else, just because I feel useful for my team. I played several melee classes, but I always come back to my Ret. Yesterday I read a post of someone asking something like " Before I invest myself in my Ret, will Rets be taken in 2200 + rbgs ? ". I think that way of reasoning is more common than we can think of. But shouldn't that player first enjoy the class, what he can bring to 1500 - rbgs before ? Many players, whatever they play, from mage to priest, or warrior, most players in fact, will never reach 2200 + ratings, even with " the right class " or " fotm ". I sometimes tend to think people don't take things in consideration in the right order.

    Let's have fun, hope, try and do our best, we can do it, we already did before, and the most insisting of us surely will in the future.
    I understand your perspective, but ultimately the issue is that millions of people play this game and hundreds of thousands play Ret... out of those there are still thousands of people who have enjoyed Ret casually, and have had fun in more laid back PvP, but are now looking for something more than just being able to do alright in a low pressure environment. This isn't a simple game that people just enjoy for a while and then move on; it's a pretty serious game that people invest years of their lives into, and after playing Ret seriously in PvP for a while, you begin to realize that there is a very nasty glass sealing that is hanging just above your head.

    Don't get me wrong, over the years I've had a great time on my Ret in random bgs and other casual environments, but this game is supposed to offer more than just random fun in low-performance environments. Both the developers and millions of players have agreed that this game is supposed to have serious balanced PvP.

    I'm also not quite sure how you find Ret to be particularly useful, don't get me wrong, Ret certainly has a few useful abilities, but they really don't come together very well into a coherent arsenal. When I play my monk who is 20 item levels lower than my Ret, and doesn't even have T1 weapons, I feel drastically more useful, any target I chose immediately begins to feel significant pressure and becomes unable to do its job properly. What good is being on my Ret and tossing out an occasional heal or hand spell, when I can be on my monk and harass an enemy healer so much that the enemy team begins to lose players due to lack of heals. I'm not saying that Ret can't be fun, all I mean is that the spec is insultingly weak when you loot at the grand scheme of PvP.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-10 at 08:35 PM ----------

    All of the recent changes still point to a very sad and disturbing reality, and that is that when it comes to Ret the developers seem stuck in an incredibly stingy mental state. Let's quickly recap the "buffs" so far.

    Hand of Sacrifice now dispels: certainly useful, but HoS was already a big part of our utility and using it to break fears and polymorphs makes it so we won't have it for more traditional uses such as breaking cc on ourselves via the shared damage or helping an ally survive. A real and absoulte buff that didn't reek of stinginess would have placed this effect on hand of salvation. Don't get me wrong, this will be very useful, but a spec that is now widely accepted as bad deserves absolute buffs, not tradeoffs.

    Seal of Justice: Might be a solution to the problem that an 8 year-old on roller-skates can just stand there and tank a Ret unless cooldowns are up. However, once again stinginess rears its ugly head. In order to get this buff it is apparently necessary to take away our only baseline snare. So, ultimately we are taking a hit to utility and sadly even pressure (even though this change is meant to increase our pressure). Our options are to cripple our already pathetic CC and not take Fist of Justice, or to rely on teammates for a snare. Of course, even if our teammates have strong snares, we all know that a good CC chain or kiting can make said snares fall off... let's face it multiple snares are better than fewer, there are simply many scenarios in PvP that make it so that every melee needs to bring a snare.

    Light's Hammer now snares: a cute change, it's a good snare that is not magical and gets constantly re-applied. However, taking Light's Hammer means giving up Holy Prism.... but, of course, Prism is a vital survival tool and also one of our biggest nukes outside of cooldowns. So, if you take Light's Hammer, even with the Seal of Justice change your pressure once again goes down to complete crap.

    Flash of Light buff: this makes our heals pretty good again in theory, but is overall a questionable change which makes Selfless Healer mandatory (which is terrible and thoughtless design). This also exacerbates one of the most serious problems with Ret, which is being constantly trained due to weak personal defenses. Now training us is even more attractive, since it will keep us from casting our only serious heal, which also heals allies for amazing amounts thus making it stupid to attack a Ret's teammates when you can just attack the Ret and destroy his capacity to heal.

    Glyph of Blessed life no longer requires a seal: this change is completely irrelevant, the glyph is absolutely terrible, I doubt it even averages 2 holy power per minute under normal circumstances.

    Glyph of Templar's Verdict: this is the only real and absolute buff that does not involve petty and unnecessary tradeoffs. Now we can actually use WoG without taking more damage due to the glyph falling off.

    Overall, while almost anyone informed about PvP will agree that Ret is in serious trouble, we are getting little more than a bunch of half-baked tweaks which also come with significant trade-offs. I simply can't understand what is so hard about being generous toward Ret and actually just making the spec better in an absolute sense, rather than just re-arranging our abilities a little bit and acting like any serious change has been made. Sure, we will have more options in 5.2, but it's pretty obvious that we don't just need options, the spec needed concrete improvements with no stingy and petty tradeoffs to go with those buffs.
    Last edited by Tangra; 2013-02-10 at 07:21 PM.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Matrlx View Post
    what about Mass exco glyph ( melee range , melee attack ) it should stack with SoJ
    Melee range does not make it a melee attack. It's still a spell.
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  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Tangra View Post
    Hand of Sacrifice now dispels: certainly useful, but HoS was already a big part of our utility and using it to break fears and polymorphs makes it so we won't have it for more traditional uses such as breaking cc on ourselves via the shared damage or helping an ally survive. A real and absoulte buff that didn't reek of stinginess would have placed this effect on hand of salvation. Don't get me wrong, this will be very useful, but a spec that is now widely accepted as bad deserves absolute buffs, not tradeoffs.
    It's going to be difficult to use this to remove CC on friendly players. I also tunnel vision easily, and will probably need a add on that alerts me when they are. As it is I have a hard time healing teammates cause they can line of sight me. Though to be honest I'm not in any serious 3v3 team, as we don't have a healer. I can see this being useful when your healer is cc and they begin to train a teammate or yourself.

    More importantly it doesn't change that Clemency is absolutely our best choice.
    Seal of Justice: Might be a solution to the problem that an 8 year-old on roller-skates can just stand there and tank a Ret unless cooldowns are up. However, once again stinginess rears its ugly head. In order to get this buff it is apparently necessary to take away our only baseline snare. So, ultimately we are taking a hit to utility and sadly even pressure (even though this change is meant to increase our pressure). Our options are to cripple our already pathetic CC and not take Fist of Justice, or to rely on teammates for a snare. Of course, even if our teammates have strong snares, we all know that a good CC chain or kiting can make said snares fall off... let's face it multiple snares are better than fewer, there are simply many scenarios in PvP that make it so that every melee needs to bring a snare.
    I personally don't see a problem with this. We have the option to talent into a snare, which most Rets do anyway. This brings back Seal of Command, but more reliable. They should just rename it to Seal of Command.

    Though to be fair they could make the debuff also snare. Like 10% per stack, for a total of 50%. When you Templar's Verdict, you also remove the snare as you also consume the stack. So it's not a 100% up time, and still puts value in choosing Burden of Guilt.
    Light's Hammer now snares: a cute change, it's a good snare that is not magical and gets constantly re-applied. However, taking Light's Hammer means giving up Holy Prism.... but, of course, Prism is a vital survival tool and also one of our biggest nukes outside of cool downs. So, if you take Light's Hammer, even with the Seal of Justice change your pressure once again goes down to complete crap.
    Depending on the team you're in, this might be more useful then you think. If you're the only person capable of a snare, then yea it sucks. Now do a 3v3 with a DK and have him pull 2-3 people and have you Light's Hammer the same spot. Watch as everyone tries to leave in a panic, while you both cleave them.

    Mind you if Light's Hammer did a root or a stun like effect instead, then I'm sure every Paladin would pick this up instead of Prism.
    Flash of Light buff: this makes our heals pretty good again in theory, but is overall a questionable change which makes Selfless Healer mandatory (which is terrible and thoughtless design). This also exacerbates one of the most serious problems with Ret, which is being constantly trained due to weak personal defenses. Now training us is even more attractive, since it will keep us from casting our only serious heal, which also heals allies for amazing amounts thus making it stupid to attack a Ret's teammates when you can just attack the Ret and destroy his capacity to heal.
    Technically they have buffed the other talents. Eternal Flame now self heals for 100% more from the healing over time effect. Sacred Shield can't be dispel-able, which they mean the buff and not the shield itself.

    Sacred Shield seems questionable, as it's problem was the delay and not so much dispels. Eternal Flame is also questionable, as a Ret will still exchange damage for a heal, and the healing over time effect even at 100% increase may not be attractive enough.

    Also, Selfless healer was sorta nerfed for Retribution. You heal yourself for more, but your teammates for not so much more. Sure you heal teammates more then yourself, but not 105% more like it is on live, but only 60% more. The difference is much smaller. Though healing your teammate should be about the same as live, and maybe even a small buff, by like 10%.
    Last edited by Dukenukemx; 2013-02-10 at 09:11 PM.

  5. #105
    The buffs to Eternal Flame, Sacred Shield, Hand of Purity and so forth are all completely inconsequential. Since Flash of Light is now out main heal, being able to cast instant or at least quick Flashes of Light completely blows away the EF hot and SS, regardless of whether you are healing yourself or your teammates. I agree that the various other changes have their benefits, but this doesn't change my main point that all of these alterations are incredibly cheap and stingy.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Tangra View Post
    The buffs to Eternal Flame, Sacred Shield, Hand of Purity and so forth are all completely inconsequential. Since Flash of Light is now out main heal, being able to cast instant or at least quick Flashes of Light completely blows away the EF hot and SS, regardless of whether you are healing yourself or your teammates. I agree that the various other changes have their benefits, but this doesn't change my main point that all of these alterations are incredibly cheap and stingy.
    I have tested Eternal Flame out on the Ptr and it is definitely much better than it is on live. It might even be the best choice for personal survivability (in some situations) due to it being kind of like a second wind you can have on yourself most of the time. However I do think that Eternal Flame should scale a little better with Str. What I'm seeing on the Ptr is about 6 -8k ticks in combat depending on how much the initial heal was for.

    Selfless Healer will hands down be the best for supporting team mates while still being able to heal yourself. Eternal flame does almost nothing when healing someone else and Sacred Shield is just too weak all around when compared to the others.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Tangra View Post
    Sure, we will have more options in 5.2, but it's pretty obvious that we don't just need options, the spec needed concrete improvements with no stingy and petty tradeoffs to go with those buffs.
    Disagree with bold.

    We have "options" in the sense that you could choose to have random sex without a condom, but why bother risking the STD?

    In reality, we now have no option but to:

    Take BoGuilt
    Take Clemency
    Take Selfless Healer
    Take Prism (you're gonna get trained harder than ever, need that healing and damage)

    All the "buffs" just stripped the choice from half of our talents; there are no options anymore, all of those are mandatory to perform (and some of them are buffs to Holy, gg snare on Hammer cos that's not going to own face in a tunnel in RBGs) and in the process we're losing some of our CC for it.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Valarius View Post
    Disagree with bold.

    We have "options" in the sense that you could choose to have random sex without a condom, but why bother risking the STD?

    In reality, we now have no option but to:

    Take BoGuilt
    Take Clemency
    Take Selfless Healer
    Take Prism (you're gonna get trained harder than ever, need that healing and damage)

    All the "buffs" just stripped the choice from half of our talents; there are no options anymore, all of those are mandatory to perform (and some of them are buffs to Holy, gg snare on Hammer cos that's not going to own face in a tunnel in RBGs) and in the process we're losing some of our CC for it.
    Yeah, I totally did not mean talent options... I just mean we can use Hand of Sacrifice for different things and things of that sort... in terms of talent options, yeah this patch is absolutely pitiful, it has made it so blatant that they spend barely any time on Ret design, and so the spec doesn't even make sense in terms of the game's overall philosophy. Mandatory talents are explicitly against their design philosophy, yet they just striped Ret of virtually any build diversity.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Tangra View Post
    Yeah, I totally did not mean talent options... I just mean we can use Hand of Sacrifice for different things and things of that sort... in terms of talent options, yeah this patch is absolutely pitiful, it has made it so blatant that they spend barely any time on Ret design, and so the spec doesn't even make sense in terms of the game's overall philosophy. Mandatory talents are explicitly against their design philosophy, yet they just striped Ret of virtually any build diversity.
    I don't think they make changes off how things actually are in game. They look at things on paper and assume everything is fine.

    While Ret really needs a lot more work I am at least happy that we are getting some "buffs".

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by nyc81991 View Post
    I don't think they make changes off how things actually are in game. They look at things on paper and assume everything is fine.

    While Ret really needs a lot more work I am at least happy that we are getting some "buffs".
    Yeah it's better than nothing. The TV glyph change to add exorcism should help a bit. Hand of Sacrifice dispel addition is better than nothing but not enough for RBGs and it should've been an entirely new ability if they're really dead-set on it being a single targeted dispel, but whatever.

    Honestly, we don't need that much work. They just don't want to put more than they have into Ret mid-expansion. You saw how disdainful Ghostcrawler was on his "new Seal of Justice" post. In his efforts to come off as unbiased (because Ret Paladins do have a pretty high population for how mediocre they are), he has turned biased.

  11. #111
    They should have named this new version "Seal of Command" and improved Seal Of justice to proc off judgements and removed Burden of Guilt from the talent tree. Now this would have been a buff. Their current implementation if both a buff and a nerf and I don't get the point of it because they are trying to improve ret in pvp.

  12. #112
    Dreadlord ipoststuff's Avatar
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    I thought they were gonna do some talent tuning. For pvp ret

    long arm
    fist
    selfless healer
    clemency
    avenger
    prism

    are pretty much set in stone. Only one i see not being picked in that list is foj since we wont have any other slow now. Still we have 5 mandotary talents. Talents should be balanced. Atm most of them plain suck.


    On SoJ change. I dont know how this'll be a pve damage loss and still help us in pvp. Switching to soj will be a bigger dps loss in pvp than it is in pve. In pvp we can keep censure on target pretty much 100% of the time. So SoT does close to full damage in pvp even if we dont have 100% uptime. SoJ will suffer from this a lot. SoJ will stack much slower and we cant always hit TV in pvp.
    What im trying to say is if SoT does say 20% more damage in pve than SoJ, in pvp it'll be like 50% more.


    One last thing. Where is our RBG utility? Dont tell me its the aoe slow with 1 min cooldown or the magic dispell with 2 min cooldown. I dont believe when GC says they dont balance the game around population. It seems like there are too many paladins and devs would like less.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by ipoststuff View Post
    I thought they were gonna do some talent tuning. For pvp ret

    long arm
    fist
    selfless healer
    clemency
    avenger
    prism

    are pretty much set in stone. Only one i see not being picked in that list is foj since we wont have any other slow now. Still we have 5 mandotary talents. Talents should be balanced. Atm most of them plain suck.


    On SoJ change. I dont know how this'll be a pve damage loss and still help us in pvp. Switching to soj will be a bigger dps loss in pvp than it is in pve. In pvp we can keep censure on target pretty much 100% of the time. So SoT does close to full damage in pvp even if we dont have 100% uptime. SoJ will suffer from this a lot. SoJ will stack much slower and we cant always hit TV in pvp.
    What im trying to say is if SoT does say 20% more damage in pve than SoJ, in pvp it'll be like 50% more.


    One last thing. Where is our RBG utility? Dont tell me its the aoe slow with 1 min cooldown or the magic dispell with 2 min cooldown. I dont believe when GC says they dont balance the game around population. It seems like there are too many paladins and devs would like less.
    Yeah I don't think Blizzard realizes how hard it will be to balance SoT and SoJ, given that Censure has such a high up-time in all environments.

  14. #114
    Hope you don't mind, Tangra, but I took a large part of your posts (and input from a few others here) to make another inquiry on the PTR thread. I've already been either lucky or accurate enough in previous posts to get direct quotes from GC 4 or 5 times, so hopefully he can/will address some of the issues you raise in there.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
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    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
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  15. #115
    I posted a few suggestions on the PTR forum. If you all wanna toss some ideas around in the thread: search for "Retribution - Some Glyph/Talent Suggestions" (since I can't post links yet )

    Pretty much agree with you all on our RBG viability. We don't bring anything, or enough of anything to get a spot over other melee, and these 'buffs' proposed on PTR so far are not going to cut it.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Prodigy152 View Post
    I posted a few suggestions on the PTR forum. If you all wanna toss some ideas around in the thread: search for "Retribution - Some Glyph/Talent Suggestions" (since I can't post links yet )

    Pretty much agree with you all on our RBG viability. We don't bring anything, or enough of anything to get a spot over other melee, and these 'buffs' proposed on PTR so far are not going to cut it.
    Guessing you're Mataza.

    I agree about the T6 being very lackluster. I had a similar post previously, that was overlooked:

    I'd like to address two issues that have been overlooked since release for paladins.

    ----First: T6 talents----

    The current T6 (Lvl 90) talents for paladins have some issues with consistency regarding the GCD. Execution Sentence and Light's Hammer (and Sacred Shield!) are both on the spell-GCD. Holy Prism, however, is on the Melee-GCD. There is a bit of a disconnect here. This issue, plainly stated, means that no matter how much haste we have from personal or external sources, ES, LH and SS will ALWAYS be a 1.5 sec GCD, for any paladin, regardless of spec. No matter how much haste you have, using these abilities will cause you to delay your rotation. It should be fixed so their GCD also scales with haste. Surely, given that Prism is on the melee GCD, we can assume that this is a bug/unintended?

    Personally, I feel the T6 talents should be OFF the GCD, given that they are supposed to be the big "wow" part of the tree. They already do not scale with haste (for ANY spec), nor generate holy power. I agree that the GCD fix would be a simple bug-fix (or as simple as I can comprehend), but honestly it's quite sad/underwhelming that our big finale talents are even on the GCD in the first place.

    My Suggestions to add to the above post:
    1) Remove T6 talents from GCD
    2) Allow T6 talents to benefit from haste for all spec's (specifically looking at Ret and Execution Sentence here)
    3) Allow T6 talents to generate HoPo. I would personally prefer to see Prism give 1 HoPo, ES generate 3 HoPo, and Light's Hammer generate 1-3 HoPo based on number of targets hit/healed.

    It's almost a shame there are so many things to report, and so little time. I get that asking for buffs is likely going to get overlooked, but the above is almost a bug-fix, with the haste issue and lack of any scaling. I mean, that CAN'T be intended for our "ultimate tier" talents...can it? o.O
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Valarius View Post
    Disagree with bold.

    We have "options" in the sense that you could choose to have random sex without a condom, but why bother risking the STD?

    In reality, we now have no option but to:

    Take BoGuilt
    Take Clemency
    Take Selfless Healer
    Take Prism (you're gonna get trained harder than ever, need that healing and damage)

    All the "buffs" just stripped the choice from half of our talents; there are no options anymore, all of those are mandatory to perform (and some of them are buffs to Holy, gg snare on Hammer cos that's not going to own face in a tunnel in RBGs) and in the process we're losing some of our CC for it.
    Good chance that some Ret Paladin has already worked out how to use these new changes, and we'll see 2200+ Rets using different talents. Which then suddenly the choices aren't as linear as you think.

    BoG is only if you don't have a teammate who can slow, cause most classes have a built in slow. Clemency is unfortunately our best choice, and that wont' change anytime soon. Selfless healer is not a clear choice, as it benefits teammates then yourself. Eternal Flame though might keep you alive long enough to convince the other team to switch onto another teammate. Prism vs Light's Hammer will probably depend on RBGs or Arena. Arena will likely be Prism, while Light's Hammer might become popular for RBGs. It's a wait and see sort of thing.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukemx View Post
    BoG is only if you don't have a teammate who can slow, cause most classes have a built in slow.
    Because that team-mate is always in range and in a position to apply his slow? What if your Warrior pal is CCd? No Hamstring. What if your DK pal is out of runes? No slow. Meanwhile you have a Hunter kiting you to Africa and back.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukemx View Post
    Selfless healer is not a clear choice, as it benefits teammates then yourself Eternal Flame though might keep you alive long enough to convince the other team to switch onto another teammate
    Eternal Flame is dispellable; good luck keeping it up without any trash buffs to cover it with. SH at least gives you an extra instant to use in combination with WoG.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukemx View Post
    Prism vs Light's Hammer will probably depend on RBGs or Arena. Arena will likely be Prism, while Light's Hammer might become popular for RBGs. It's a wait and see sort of thing.
    Light's Hammer will be situationally useful (tunnels/small rooms) but you're forgetting that to access that 1min CD snare you're giving up a pretty good team-heal/burst damage ability. Not exactly worth it. Holy also has access to LH and won't feel the loss of Prism as much since they don't *need* the healing or the damage from Prism.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Guessing you're Mataza.

    I agree about the T6 being very lackluster. I had a similar post previously, that was overlooked:

    I'd like to address two issues that have been overlooked since release for paladins.

    ----First: T6 talents----

    The current T6 (Lvl 90) talents for paladins have some issues with consistency regarding the GCD. Execution Sentence and Light's Hammer (and Sacred Shield!) are both on the spell-GCD. Holy Prism, however, is on the Melee-GCD. There is a bit of a disconnect here. This issue, plainly stated, means that no matter how much haste we have from personal or external sources, ES, LH and SS will ALWAYS be a 1.5 sec GCD, for any paladin, regardless of spec. No matter how much haste you have, using these abilities will cause you to delay your rotation. It should be fixed so their GCD also scales with haste. Surely, given that Prism is on the melee GCD, we can assume that this is a bug/unintended?

    Personally, I feel the T6 talents should be OFF the GCD, given that they are supposed to be the big "wow" part of the tree. They already do not scale with haste (for ANY spec), nor generate holy power. I agree that the GCD fix would be a simple bug-fix (or as simple as I can comprehend), but honestly it's quite sad/underwhelming that our big finale talents are even on the GCD in the first place.

    My Suggestions to add to the above post:
    1) Remove T6 talents from GCD
    2) Allow T6 talents to benefit from haste for all spec's (specifically looking at Ret and Execution Sentence here)
    3) Allow T6 talents to generate HoPo. I would personally prefer to see Prism give 1 HoPo, ES generate 3 HoPo, and Light's Hammer generate 1-3 HoPo based on number of targets hit/healed.

    It's almost a shame there are so many things to report, and so little time. I get that asking for buffs is likely going to get overlooked, but the above is almost a bug-fix, with the haste issue and lack of any scaling. I mean, that CAN'T be intended for our "ultimate tier" talents...can it? o.O
    Totally agree with all of those changes. Would make the final talent tier more interesting and powerful, how it is suppose to be.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Valarius View Post
    Because that team-mate is always in range and in a position to apply his slow? What if your Warrior pal is CCd? No Hamstring. What if your DK pal is out of runes? No slow. Meanwhile you have a Hunter kiting you to Africa and back.
    That's why a team takes coordination. If your DK partner is out of runes or Warrior is CCd then he should be able to tell you this. Hand of Sacrifice the Warrior to dispel all CC on him or have the healer step in. Some healers do have slows.

    I just think that Burden of Guilt isn't the go to ability. You have choices, but those choices will reflect how well your team works together. If it turns out your Warrior or DK partner is incompetent, then Burden of Guilt is the way to go.

    Eternal Flame is dispellable; good luck keeping it up without any trash buffs to cover it with. SH at least gives you an extra instant to use in combination with WoG.
    Which is unfortunately a huge problem with this talent. Chances are if their team is focusing you then any attempt to use Eternal Flame on yourself is going to be wasted effort. Without you putting pressure for the healer to heal, they will instead be using abilities like Purge and Dispel Magic. Then again if your team can keep the pressure while you try to gain control of the situation, then purge or dispel might be the last thing on a Shaman or Priest's mind.

    Light's Hammer will be situationally useful (tunnels/small rooms) but you're forgetting that to access that 1min CD snare you're giving up a pretty good team-heal/burst damage ability. Not exactly worth it. Holy also has access to LH and won't feel the loss of Prism as much since they don't *need* the healing or the damage from Prism.
    The buff to this ability isn't going to convince me either. I'll probably only take it unless it's requested of me.

    You know what's a funny idea for this talent, is what if Light's Hammer was stuck onto someone instead of just the floor. You see this Hammer on their head, instead of the floor. So for 17 seconds the target has a slow on them, and if they happen to walk near a teammate, then they also slow them down as well as damage. If they happen to walk near your teammates, it heals them.

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