Thread: 5.2 soj pvp

Page 7 of 8 FirstFirst ...
5
6
7
8
LastLast
  1. #121
    Herald of the Titans Valarius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Cymru
    Posts
    2,859
    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukemx View Post
    That's why a team takes coordination. If your DK partner is out of runes or Warrior is CCd then he should be able to tell you this. Hand of Sacrifice the Warrior to dispel all CC on him or have the healer step in. Some healers do have slows.
    I get that, I'm just saying sometimes shit happens and you need a snare *now*. Not having a base snare also hurts Ret's team choices quite badly; many ranged classes only have temporary snares whereas melee tend to have the solid/easy to apply ones. By not having one of those Ret has to team up with another person who does and use them as a "crutch" whereas those other melees don't. Fact is, we should have a simple snare that costs us either 1 HoPo (inline with other melees) or just a GCDs worth of damage. For some reason though GC sees fit to make us jump through hoops to fulfill that role.

    Which is unfortunately a huge problem with this talent. Chances are if their team is focusing you then any attempt to use Eternal Flame on yourself is going to be wasted effort. Without you putting pressure for the healer to heal, they will instead be using abilities like Purge and Dispel Magic. Then again if your team can keep the pressure while you try to gain control of the situation, then purge or dispel might be the last thing on a Shaman or Priest's mind.
    The problem is that there is literally no reason NOT to focus a Ret. We have pathetic defensives and a ton of "team-mate only" spells; why waste your time DPSing the Druid who's getting heals, BoPs and Sacs when you can just rag the Ret and negate most of his utilities? Because of that SH is mandatory to survive; you're going to get dispelled every time they notice EF is up, especially when more than half the classes ingame can dispel magic these days.

    You know what's a funny idea for this talent, is what if Light's Hammer was stuck onto someone instead of just the floor. You see this Hammer on their head, instead of the floor. So for 17 seconds the target has a slow on them, and if they happen to walk near a teammate, then they also slow them down as well as damage. If they happen to walk near your teammates, it heals them.
    Honestly IDK. I think Light's Hammer needs to be changed to something else entirely. It's just too easy to avoid when everyone can just walk out of it, and the damage&healing is dire for the cooldown it has.

  2. #122
    List of serious flaws with the new Seal of Justice:

    The more I think about the new SoJ the more I realize the current version has little hope of being viable, here is my list of concerns.

    Let's start with the common ones that other people thought of, and I will list the ones I have not seen mentioned elsewhere at the end:

    1) Seal of Truth does much more damage while being kited due to Censure (this alone raises serious concerns about whether this seal can even be balanced for PvP and PvE).

    2) Seal of Justice not only stacks very slowly from range, but also cannot be UNLEASHED from range, so if you are at 5 stacks and cannot reach your target, your next Judgement will waste a stack and only refresh SoJ.

    3) If you are CCed for 15 seconds or line of sighted, the stack falls off and all damage is completely lost, Censure on the other hand at least did damage before it expired.

    From this point on things start getting really bad:

    4) SoJ clashes with our rotation, Ret Paladins do not use TV when ever they can, if we are not holy power capped we use HP generators like CS to maximize dps, and use TV at 5 HP, or when nothing else is available. So, with SoJ we have to use TV at 5 stacks of SoJ or waste stacks, or stick to the max dps rotation and waste stacks but not waste holy power. This adds another major dps hit to SoJ.

    5) Refreshing Inquisition will now be a huge dps loss, why? Because if we use 3 HP for Inquisition, we cannot dump our SoJ stacks, thus several SoJ application will be wasted until we have enough HP to use TV. Even if you use Inquisition at 5 HP, you will still probably waste stacks before you can TV.

    6) Word of Glory becomes a much bigger dps loss for the same reasons as Inquisition, however the problem here is even worse since you can somewhat plan when Inquisition will be refresh (but honestly not really in the chaos of PvP), when it comes to WoG, you have to heal when people need it, you can't sit around and manage SoJ stacks and Holy Power while you or your partners are dying. So, if you heal with WoG while SoJ is at 5 stacks, you will then potentially have to hit 3 HP generators before being able to TV, this can lead to numerous stacks of SoJ to be completely wasted.

    7) Due to the problems listed above, this seal is practically unusable unless you take Divine Purpose (and even then you will need lots of luck), and we are supposed to have choices. 5.2 already takes talent choices away from Ret as it is. The huge Flash of Light buff makes Selfless healer blow everything else in that tier away. The Hand of Sacrifice buff makes Clemency even more mandatory. The loss of the SoJ snare makes Burden of Guilt our only snare option other than Light's Hammer. Holy Prism will still beat Light's Hammer almost always. And, Long Arm of the Law is pretty much dominant even today, and will remain that way. In other words, if you use this seal you basically have no real talent options at all.

    EDIT: 8) SoJ could waste stacks at pretty much any time when we spend a global on a utility spell and so delay HP generation and thus TVs (and so our auto-attacks will stack SoJ faster than we can consume it).

    Some solutions:

    1) This seal has to stack to more than 5 to work (but still only 5 stacks usable at a time), otherwise the amount of wasted SoJ applications will be absurd, and the seal will do a tiny fraction of Seal of Truth damage. Stacking to 10 might work.

    2) Another option is to add a non-damage buff to the seal, such as something along the lines of Necrotic strike, this will make up for the unavoidably massive difference in damage between the two seals.

    3) The new SoJ attack could perhaps be triggered by Judgement so that being kited doesn't lead to both slow stacking and wasted stacks. The attack should only be triggered at 5 stacks in this case, since Judgement is used fairly often, and is our main gap closer.
    Last edited by Tangra; 2013-02-12 at 05:51 PM.

  3. #123
    Herald of the Titans Valarius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Cymru
    Posts
    2,859
    4) SoJ clashes with our rotation
    This is my main beef with it; as I tested previously, if I was to hit TV whenever it's ready I'm averaging 3 stacks. If I wait for 5 HoPo, I'm going to hit 5 stacks reliably but i'll also be *wasting* 1-2 stacks of Justice aswell.

    The method of application and consumption are the problem; Judgement can build it, but we have no way to detonate it from range. White swings will stack it faster than you could use all your HP generators causing wastage and a loss of "potential" DPS no matter which way you choose to use it (TV instantly, or wait for gaps).

    As Talen(i think?) brought up aswell; DP procs, HA both wreck this spell; you will have no stacks for TVs in quick succession. I still maintain the best way to use it if you're HA is to roll 5 Truth, build 5 Justice, pop cools, hit your first huge TV then swap to Truth for the duration. Otherwise the seal is adding nothing.

    It's like they're trying to push a sledgehammer through a keyhole. It's both an inelegant and ineffective tool for the job.

    EDIT: I don't think 10 stacks is the right solution either; could cause "too much" burst (Not really my opinion, but you know how much people would bitch if they got 2shot with TVs) with a double TV via DP or something. It has to be an odd number, so there's still a gap between the two hits. Allowing it to stack to 8 would be fine. Would lessen the amount of wasted stacks, without letting us use it twice in 2 GCDs
    Last edited by Valarius; 2013-02-11 at 11:06 PM.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Valarius View Post
    This is my main beef with it; as I tested previously, if I was to hit TV whenever it's ready I'm averaging 3 stacks. If I wait for 5 HoPo, I'm going to hit 5 stacks reliably but i'll also be *wasting* 1-2 stacks of Justice aswell.

    The method of application and consumption are the problem; Judgement can build it, but we have no way to detonate it from range. White swings will stack it faster than you could use all your HP generators causing wastage and a loss of "potential" DPS no matter which way you choose to use it (TV instantly, or wait for gaps).

    As Talen(i think?) brought up aswell; DP procs, HA both wreck this spell; you will have no stacks for TVs in quick succession. I still maintain the best way to use it if you're HA is to roll 5 Truth, build 5 Justice, pop cools, hit your first huge TV then swap to Truth for the duration. Otherwise the seal is adding nothing.

    It's like they're trying to push a sledgehammer through a keyhole. It's both an inelegant and ineffective tool for the job.

    EDIT: I don't think 10 stacks is the right solution either; could cause "too much" burst (Not really my opinion, but you know how much people would bitch if they got 2shot with TVs) with a double TV via DP or something. It has to be an odd number, so there's still a gap between the two hits. Allowing it to stack to 8 would be fine. Would lessen the amount of wasted stacks, without letting us use it twice in 2 GCDs
    Good point, 8 stacks will be best... I completely forgot that they did nothing to make sure that this Seal isn't too good in combination with our cool downs... well, other than it being complete crap, but the problem would arise once they make it good.
    Last edited by Tangra; 2013-02-11 at 11:23 PM.

  5. #125
    It should have utility useful mainly in pvp to balance it out, like the old judgment of justice effect. Not quite as good as a snare, but you know, better than nothing and makes us actually want to use the Seal in PVP.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Reith View Post
    It should have utility useful mainly in pvp to balance it out, like the old judgment of justice effect. Not quite as good as a snare, but you know, better than nothing and makes us actually want to use the Seal in PVP.
    Maybe a 2 sec root when the stack reaches 5.

  7. #127
    Pandaren Monk
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Illinois, USA
    Posts
    1,933
    Perhaps that empower idea we had a couple pages back? For instance, WoG can also use charges of SoJ to increase our self healing. Boom. PvP seal, and allows us to expend charges at range. Make it something like 40%-50% extra healing at 5 stacks, and WoG suddenly becomes usable again and we don't run into SUCH a huge issue with the debuff stacks.

    Edit: Empower thing may have been back in a different thread. They could have justice essentially just increase the potency of our finishers. They are all pretty lackluster. TV hits harder, WoG heals for more, and make DS do something to affect RBG utility. GC already said they would like the idea of Ret pressing DS more, so make it do something in an area around us. AoE offhealing? AoE snare? AoE root? AoE damage reduction buff to teammates? Boom, last one may make Ret attractive for RBG's.
    Last edited by Valedus; 2013-02-12 at 12:29 AM.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUntsAhts View Post
    Perhaps that empower idea we had a couple pages back? For instance, WoG can also use charges of SoJ to increase our self healing. Boom. PvP seal, and allows us to expend charges at range. Make it something like 40%-50% extra healing at 5 stacks, and WoG suddenly becomes usable again and we don't run into SUCH a huge issue with the debuff stacks.
    Which means the 'buff' has to be on the paladin, not their target. They don't want this as it will allow easy switches, like TfB.....

    As said loads of times, ret needs something new, probably more than one thing but w.e, not the same old "we'll give you this, and we'll take this from you". Do any other classes get buffs with nerfs all the time? I don't remember the last time they significantly buffed ret without nerfing something else...or just straight out nerfing everything.

    As another topic talks about, patch is roughly in two weeks, while acknowledging how bad PvP in general is, and how un-competitive ret is in both arena and RBGs...they have pretty much done nothing to fix any of issues, particularly with ret.

    So I guess its wait till 5.3 to see what they think will make us viable in rbgs, I wonder what they'll take away in 5.3 too?
    Last edited by Palatinus; 2013-02-12 at 12:35 AM.

  9. #129
    Pandaren Monk
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Illinois, USA
    Posts
    1,933
    Quote Originally Posted by Palatinus View Post
    Which means the 'buff' has to be on the paladin, not their target. They don't want this as it will allow easy switches, like TfB.....

    As said loads of times, ret needs something new, probably more than one thing but w.e, not the same old "we'll give you this, and we'll take this from you". Do any other classes get buffs with nerfs all the time? I don't remember the last time they significantly buffed ret without nerfing something else...or just straight out nerfing everything.

    As another topic talks about, patch is roughly in two weeks, while acknowledging how bad PvP in general is, and how un-competitive ret is in both arena and RBGs...they have pretty much done nothing to fix any of issues, particularly with ret.

    So I guess its wait till 5.3 to see what they think will make us viable in rbgs, I wonder what they'll take away in 5.3 too?
    Not really. Just make the spells more powerful based on stacks of Justice currently on our target. I agree Ret needs something, and aoe damage reduction that is semi-spammable would help our survivability and utility. Just brainstorming, though.

    A lot of the problems of PvP are being fixed. No more insane spriest healing, no more insane warrior damage between GCD's (how was that even allowed to go live?) and more that I can't really think of right now, but I agree. Ret didn't get as much MEANINGFUL attention as I had hoped. Another season as Holy, putting my paladin on the back-burner. Sure we got lots of blue text in the patch notes as Paladins, but 2 min cleanses that aren't new abilities and the FOL buff (pretty much just reverting how hard 15% more on Battle Fatigue and loss of PvP power hurt us... so barely even a buff) don't really cut it. Hopefully another season of crappy Ret representation above, let's say, 1700 will show them.

  10. #130
    Herald of the Titans Valarius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Cymru
    Posts
    2,859
    Doubt it. According to GC "5 times as many" people play Ret than Windwalker Monk (nothing to do with it being a brand new class or anything) and that's the justification for massive WW buffs and no Ret buffs..

    The only way this class will get help is if people stop bothering to play it. Sadly Ret is fairly "noob friendly" so there'll always be plenty of people *playing* it. The issue how many are playing it successfully at a competitive level? Not many.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Valarius View Post
    Doubt it. According to GC "5 times as many" people play Ret than Windwalker Monk (nothing to do with it being a brand new class or anything) and that's the justification for massive WW buffs and no Ret buffs..

    The only way this class will get help is if people stop bothering to play it. Sadly Ret is fairly "noob friendly" so there'll always be plenty of people *playing* it. The issue how many are playing it successfully at a competitive level? Not many.
    Yeah that proves that they don't actually want to balance this game.

    When they balance classes around how many people play them instead of how good they are you will never have true balance.

  12. #132
    Haha I guess not many people play mage then

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Palatinus View Post
    Haha I guess not many people play mage then
    Mages are "their precious" for whatever reason is completely unknown to me. They always give them tons of developer attention and are never in a bad or mediocre spot.

  14. #134
    Moderator Malthanis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Not nearly out of the way enough
    Posts
    4,535
    Let's stay on topic, please.

  15. #135
    Herald of the Titans Valarius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Cymru
    Posts
    2,859
    Hahaha, did they seriously just shave 2 seconds off Light's Hammer? Because that really needed to happen, right?

  16. #136
    Pandaren Monk
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Illinois, USA
    Posts
    1,933
    Quote Originally Posted by Valarius View Post
    Hahaha, did they seriously just shave 2 seconds off Light's Hammer? Because that really needed to happen, right?
    I'm hoping that's a datamining bug. There's really no reason to nerf it...

  17. #137
    Herald of the Titans Valarius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Cymru
    Posts
    2,859
    It's like they give us a blood transfusion only so they can continue flaying us alive. No buff without taking something away.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Valarius View Post
    Hahaha, did they seriously just shave 2 seconds off Light's Hammer? Because that really needed to happen, right?
    How pathetic, what planet do they live on where Ret paladins are almost overpowered and need such scrutiny.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-13 at 02:40 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Valarius View Post
    It's like they give us a blood transfusion only so they can continue flaying us alive. No buff without taking something away.
    Honestly, I don't think I have ever known this development team to be more delusional about the current state of Ret (other than maybe during Burning Crusade, but at least back then they openly admited that they don't give a crap if some specs are worthless).

  19. #139
    Herald of the Titans Valarius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Cymru
    Posts
    2,859
    Quote Originally Posted by Tangra View Post
    Honestly, I don't think I have ever known this development team to be more delusional about the current state of Ret (other than maybe during Burning Crusade, but at least back then they openly admited that they don't give a crap if some specs are worthless).
    Yeah I don't get it either. I half-jokingly said to the Holy Paladin in my guild a few weeks back that they are literally just making changes to the class to pad the patch notes (things such as adding to the mana cost of Judgment by like 1% or something). Now I'm convinced.

    They managed to make a bunch of changes for this patch, without actually changing anything, or even in some cases nerfing us - treatment that no other class has had from the team.

    The way they're fiddling with us atm, you'd swear this spec is absolutely nearing perfection (I mean REALLY, taking *ONE* fucking tick off LH?). I want to know what version of the game they're playing internally, because I just don't see it.

  20. #140
    Pandaren Monk Velshin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    One with the Light
    Posts
    1,807
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUntsAhts View Post
    It may not be amazing design, but it definitely addresses TV not hitting hard. TV is going to be 400% weapon damage in a single global, + mastery. That's a lot of weapon damage, a lot of it being holy and ignoring armor.
    Even with that buff TV dmg is still nothing compare to obliterate of frost dk and they can do it faster and even without KM proc. TV is our finisher we build it up it suppose to be scary.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •