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  1. #1
    Elemental Lord Snowraven's Avatar
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    Scientists talk about human soul

    Before the article, who these scientists are:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuart_Hameroff
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Penrose

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...ink-death.html


    "A near-death experience happens when quantum substances which form the soul leave the nervous system and enter the universe at large, according to a remarkable theory proposed by two eminent scientists.

    According to this idea, consciousness is a program for a quantum computer in the brain which can persist in the universe even after death, explaining the perceptions of those who have near-death experiences.

    Dr Stuart Hameroff, Professor Emeritus at the Departments of Anesthesiology and Psychology and the Director of the Centre of Consciousness Studies at the University of Arizona, has advanced the quasi-religious theory.

    It is based on a quantum theory of consciousness he and British physicist Sir Roger Penrose have developed which holds that the essence of our soul is contained inside structures called microtubules within brain cells.

    They have argued that our experience of consciousness is the result of quantum gravity effects in these microtubules, a theory which they dubbed orchestrated objective reduction (Orch-OR).

    Thus it is held that our souls are more than the interaction of neurons in the brain. They are in fact constructed from the very fabric of the universe - and may have existed since the beginning of time.

    The concept is similar to the Buddhist and Hindu belief that consciousness is an integral part of the universe - and indeed that it is really all there may be, a position similar to Western philosophical idealism.

    With these beliefs, Dr Hameroff holds that in a near-death experience the microtubules lose their quantum state, but the information within them is not destroyed. Instead it merely leaves the body and returns to the cosmos.
    Shocked back to life: The theory holds that when patients have a near death experience their quantum soul is released from the body and re-enters the cosmos, before returning when they are revived

    Shocked back to life: The theory holds that when patients have a near death experience their quantum soul is released from the body and re-enters the cosmos, before returning when they are revived

    Dr Hameroff told the Science Channel's Through the Wormhole documentary: 'Let's say the heart stops beating, the blood stops flowing, the microtubules lose their quantum state.

    'The quantum information within the microtubules is not destroyed, it can't be destroyed, it just distributes and dissipates to the universe at large.

    'If the patient is resuscitated, revived, this quantum information can go back into the microtubules and the patient says "I had a near death experience".'

    He adds: 'If they're not revived, and the patient dies, it's possible that this quantum information can exist outside the body, perhaps indefinitely, as a soul.'
    Evidence: Dr Hameroff believes new findings about the role quantum physics plays in biological processes, such as the navigation of birds, will one day prove his theory

    Evidence: Dr Hameroff believes new findings about the role quantum physics plays in biological processes, such as the navigation of birds, will one day prove his theory

    The Orch-OR theory has come in for heavy criticism by more empirically minded thinkers and remains controversial among the scientific community.

    MIT physicist Max Tegmark is just one of the many scientists to have challenged it, in a 2000 paper that is widely cited by opponents, the Huffington Post reports.

    Nevertheless, Dr Hameroff believes that research in to quantum physics is beginning to validate Orch-Or, with quantum effects recently being shown to support many important biological processes, such as smell, bird navigation and photosynthesis."

    Edit: more articles and youtube for it to be a bit more clear and less-tabloid like. I am looking for the actual study and if I can, I will post a link, until then:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIyEjh6ef_8
    http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/.../QSoulchap.pdf

    Think I found part of the actual theory in a non-tabloid form:
    http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/...ff/orchor.html

  2. #2
    Immortal Dezerte's Avatar
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    I'll remain very skeptical until they present evidence.
    To declare that a personal, inner experience gives certainty about the workings of the universe is to assign far too much value to one’s subjective sense of conviction.
    I’m not that arrogant.

    The brain, marvelous instrument though it is, isn’t infallible. It can misfire, seize or hallucinate, and it can do so in a way that’s utterly indistinguishable from reality to the person experiencing it.

  3. #3
    The Patient Pilobolus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnorei View Post
    Evidence: Dr Hameroff believes new findings about the role quantum physics plays in biological processes, such as the navigation of birds, will one day prove his theory
    There have been all sorts of papers published about how birds navigate accurately and I highly doubt any of that will actually help him here. Also...this is far from a scientific theory. Kind of a hypothesis at this point.

  4. #4
    The Lightbringer Simulacrum's Avatar
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    There are plenty of good explanations for near-death experiences that don't need to invoke magic as an explanation... those experiences can even be induced on demand based on the predictions those theories make... you don't even need to stop someone's heart to pull it off.
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  5. #5
    The Insane Reeve's Avatar
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    Sounds to me like wishful thinking causing the scientists to formulate theories that make them feel more secure.
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  6. #6
    This is Grade A woo-woo.
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  7. #7
    So.... Why would the "microtubules" lose their "quantum state" when we die ? And why do they regain it when we come back alive ? Do these guys even know what a quantum state is ?

    The whole "consciouness arises from quantum stuff" stuff is interesting, but this thing in particular looks like 99% bullshit.

  8. #8
    Elemental Lord Hyve's Avatar
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    Life is insanely complex, and it is very ignorant for us to assume we know even the smallest bit about it, and how it works.

  9. #9
    Immortal Dezerte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyve View Post
    Life is insanely complex, and it is very ignorant for us to assume we know even the smallest bit about it, and how it works.
    Speak for yourself
    To declare that a personal, inner experience gives certainty about the workings of the universe is to assign far too much value to one’s subjective sense of conviction.
    I’m not that arrogant.

    The brain, marvelous instrument though it is, isn’t infallible. It can misfire, seize or hallucinate, and it can do so in a way that’s utterly indistinguishable from reality to the person experiencing it.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Pilobolus View Post
    Kind of a hypothesis at this point.
    Good luck getting funding for testing

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-30 at 10:00 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyve View Post
    Life is insanely complex, and it is very ignorant for us to assume we know even the smallest bit about it, and how it works.
    Yes, but assuming a mystical or supernatural process because you can't fathom the complexity is another type of ignorance.
    Garth Brooks convinced me it's not living if I stand outside the fire

  11. #11
    The Lightbringer N-7's Avatar
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    Yay dailymail my favourite "news" site.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Cattlehunter View Post
    There are plenty of good explanations for near-death experiences that don't need to invoke magic as an explanation... those experiences can even be induced on demand based on the predictions those theories make... you don't even need to stop someone's heart to pull it off.
    Article relevant to the above in case anyone is interested. Pretty fascinating stuff.
    Grammer nazi's aren't a per-requisite for you're enjoyment of these signature. Although for all intensive purposes its really a mute point, per say.

  13. #13
    Mechagnome NeonX's Avatar
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    I try to keep an open mind but it's hard to not remain sceptical.

  14. #14
    its rather amusing how the word quantum has become the go-to word to mean "science-like magic that no one can possibly understand"

    also, are these two guys saying that microtubules, part of the cell support structure, also hold our consciousness and interact with quantum gravity? Because that's quite the double function.

  15. #15
    Stood in the Fire Management's Avatar
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    Uhh, ye.... no.

  16. #16
    Bloodsail Admiral Haftepaff's Avatar
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    I don't trust that source, it's not the best news site for scientific discoveries exactly.

    I don't believe in souls, ghost or whatever, still i think that the stories are fascinating. If i remember corretly, your brain is still working when you die for a few seconds. So i believe that it's only the brain playing tricks when someone have a near death experience, similar to our dreams.
    When you're asleep and someone snaps it's fingers close to you. Your brain may create an illusion/dream where you're watching fireworks. The brain is working, but you're still unconscious to world around you. Perhaps the near death experiences are similar to those experiences.

  17. #17
    Stood in the Fire lucizanito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haftepaff View Post
    I don't trust that source, it's not the best news site for scientific discoveries exactly.

    I don't believe in souls, ghost or whatever, still i think that the stories are fascinating. If i remember corretly, your brain is still working when you die for a few seconds. So i believe that it's only the brain playing tricks when someone have a near death experience, similar to our dreams.
    When you're asleep and someone snaps it's fingers close to you. Your brain may create an illusion/dream where you're watching fireworks. The brain is working, but you're still unconscious to world around you. Perhaps the near death experiences are similar to those experiences.
    On the chance there is actually something after then what then for you? Question for everyone.

  18. #18
    Brewmaster Caninese's Avatar
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    An interesting idea, to say the least.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Haftepaff View Post
    If i remember corretly, your brain is still working when you die for a few seconds. So i believe that it's only the brain playing tricks when someone have a near death experience, similar to our dreams.
    When you're asleep and someone snaps it's fingers close to you. Your brain may create an illusion/dream where you're watching fireworks. The brain is working, but you're still unconscious to world around you. Perhaps the near death experiences are similar to those experiences.
    It doesn't even have to be that involved. Close your eyes for a second. Do you see total blackness? Or do you see light streaks caused by the blood vessels in your eyelids?
    Garth Brooks convinced me it's not living if I stand outside the fire

  20. #20
    Old God apepi's Avatar
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    I think he is trying too hard.
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