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  1. #501
    Field Marshal Labruja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyve View Post
    Let me answer this for you; Yes.

    Whatever your opinions and views are, generally people who serve in the Military are good, honest people who want to do nothing more to serve their country in one of the most dangerous, and courageous ways possible. To hate people who are in the Military, on the basis that they advocate war is childish and pathetic.

    Like it or not, we live in a world where everyone has a big stick. I'm not going to put mine down until everyone else does!

    I don't think the OP was bashing the people who serve in the military at all. I think he's referring to what lies behind them being in foreign countries, which is a Government decision they have no part in. None of us have any way of knowing the real reason they are there, but I'm quite as sure as he is that it is not a 'war on terrorism'. Oil may be a large part of the reason, but there is probably a lot more to it - strategic positioning being one possible reason.

  2. #502
    Quote Originally Posted by Cybran View Post
    Taking it would be too obvious. You just have to install corrupt puppet regimes that take bribes and sell their countries riches for a fraction of their value.
    Brazil says hi. Guess what, we found tons of oil in our coast.

  3. #503
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroesec View Post
    This.

    Also the OP defines defense far too narrowly too. He may define defense that narrowly. Our enemies don't. Defending our interests is defense of the country. They are one and the same.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-08 at 06:28 AM ----------



    So you regret our funding of the Afghan Mujihadeen which broke the back of the Soviet Red Army in the 1980s, delivering upon the USSR a gangrenous wound that made Vietnam look like a mere slap to the face?

    The consistency you seek is unrealistic and also undesirable. Every situation is different. If the goal of the Grand Strategy requires internal contradictions, that's entirely acceptable.
    This is acceptable in grey and grey world. But acknowledging this, you truly must get the urge to beat people in the head, when they claim we are moraly superior and we fight for Justice, Freedom and other vaguely defined virtue. Having blood on our hands maybe necessary for our greater good, but its pretending to be morally superior to those we fight is just bulshit.

  4. #504
    Quote Originally Posted by Annapolis View Post
    You're saying that because it is a lot of money that we don't have to worry about it?

    Are you saying that we don't pay interest on our loans currently?

    If we have less debt, we pay less interest and therefore we have more money to spend on domestic costs.
    The United States of America doesn't pay interest on this loan, they don't pay it back at all. I don't think you understand your economic situation. Even if you were to pay back a fraction of that loan, the amount of interest would be negligible. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT TRILLIONS, not billions, not millions, TRILLIONS. That amount of money is unimaginable, and unprecedented. Your domestic costs will never change, they will always stay the same. If you haven't realized this by now, the USA is continuously borrowing more money. If you follow this line of thought, even if you paid back 5 trillion dollars, you would still need to borrow 5 trillion more. The fact is, the USA can't collapse, or all world trade would collapse, and the amount of money you would lose in ~4 months of the stock market being down would be more than just trillions of dollars. You don't have to pay interest on your loans, you are the powerhouse that funds the economy of the world. You are the centre for all trade, all imports and exports enter through the US and spread to the rest of the world. The fact is, if you had to pay interest, the entire populace of your country working 9-5 every day would still not be able to pay of a fraction of 5% of your countries loan. The entire world will support you in any financial situation, you can continually keep borrowing more and more money and not have to worry about it. Everything is centralized in the USA, and if the USA goes down, then shit will hit the fan. China needs to keep you alive to keep itself alive at this point. If you think the loans you take from the bank, and the loan that the entire country of the USA has is the same, you are out of your mind. The loan the USA has accumulated is essentially the "World Loan", if the USA collapses, you will see a ripple affect, causing multiple countries to enter a state of depression and eventual financial collapse.
    Last edited by Elemair; 2013-02-08 at 07:26 AM.

  5. #505
    Scarab Lord Roose's Avatar
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    We are indeed on the same page now, Elanair. Not sure why I misunderstood you earlier.

    I am hoping for a future where we all look at our police and military as peacekeepers, not soldiers. A cheesy notion, but one can hope.

    mmmmmmmmmmmmmm cheesy

  6. #506
    I am Murloc! Alenarien's Avatar
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    OP reminds me of the typical Leftist conspiracy theorist that are just so damn easy to dislike. If I had the physical health required of a soldier i'd happily do their job, and regarding why, Orwell summed it up quite succinctly;

    "We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."
    The first thing I remember about the world — and I pray that it may be the last — is that I was a stranger in it.” - Malcolm Muggeridge, Apologia pro vita sua (1968)

  7. #507
    Scarab Lord Satan's Avatar
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    Depends of the country.
    In my country, they are.

    In yours, they are indirectly doing it for other nations?
    pro-gun liberal

  8. #508
    Quote Originally Posted by Scinder View Post
    Says the punk from Chicago that flips burgers for a living.
    And you wonder why I thought that if I were to disclose my location you would try to use it as flaming instead of illustrating your point in a discussion. This just lost you your last shred of credibility, and I'm pretty sure that can get you banned.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-08 at 10:35 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Elemair View Post
    The United States of America doesn't pay interest on this loan, they don't pay it back at all. I don't think you understand your economic situation. Even if you were to pay back a fraction of that loan, the amount of interest would be negligible. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT TRILLIONS, not billions, not millions, TRILLIONS. That amount of money is unimaginable, and unprecedented. Your domestic costs will never change, they will always stay the same. If you haven't realized this by now, the USA is continuously borrowing more money. If you follow this line of thought, even if you paid back 5 trillion dollars, you would still need to borrow 5 trillion more. The fact is, the USA can't collapse, or all world trade would collapse, and the amount of money you would lose in ~4 months of the stock market being down would be more than just trillions of dollars. You don't have to pay interest on your loans, you are the powerhouse that funds the economy of the world. You are the centre for all trade, all imports and exports enter through the US and spread to the rest of the world. The fact is, if you had to pay interest, the entire populace of your country working 9-5 every day would still not be able to pay of a fraction of 5% of your countries loan. The entire world will support you in any financial situation, you can continually keep borrowing more and more money and not have to worry about it. Everything is centralized in the USA, and if the USA goes down, then shit will hit the fan. China needs to keep you alive to keep itself alive at this point. If you think the loans you take from the bank, and the loan that the entire country of the USA has is the same, you are out of your mind. The loan the USA has accumulated is essentially the "World Loan", if the USA collapses, you will see a ripple affect, causing multiple countries to enter a state of depression and eventual financial collapse.
    Well said.

    I stated that they were piss poor earlier, but since people seemed to wanna disprove that, I figured that it's not even worth explaining why. It's so obvious, yet they don't seem to realize it.

  9. #509
    It's a polite way to say that you appreciate and support the military troops, weather you agree with the policies that sent them there or not.

    They go into dangerous situations believing that they're doing it for the good of the American people- that their cause is worth putting their lives on the line for. It's idealistic, and it's respect.

    We all hope that the Government's agenda would be just, and that they would feel a bit of that respect for the troops themselves.

  10. #510
    Warchief Bantokar's Avatar
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    I respect the soldiers who go to war. I don´t respect the current wars they are fighting or the bullshit politicians who started these wars.
    8 year olds Dude.

  11. #511
    This is very wrong to throw hate like that at soldiers. We signed up in hopes that we'd be doing the right thing, that we'd be defending our freedom and choice. Regardless of your view on the war, don't talk down to the soldiers.

    "Soldiers should be respected based on what they do, not for being a soldier"

    Do you not think us signing up was enough? The fact that if we DIDN'T sign up, they'd draft people like you? That if you chose against going after that you'd be imprisoned? Come now, you can at the very least be thankful that we sign up so you don't get forced into it.
    Bleh

  12. #512
    Quote Originally Posted by Siggma View Post
    Tuesday, September 11, 2001 8:46 am – 10:28 am

    I suggest you go look up that date, Hang your head in shame, and apologize to all the service personnel that are on these forums.
    Oh a country declared war upon USA and did this, did they?

    So it wasnt just an organization that did it?

    I suggest you hang your head in shame, and appologize to whatever immaginary country you just insulted.

  13. #513
    Quote Originally Posted by Daerio View Post
    Actually, they do, if you read them. Like the link I provided to the Shah of Iran:



    The Democratically elected government nationalized their oil resources and prevented foreign interests from continuing to exploit their country, and thus, we overthrew their Democratically elected government and installed one more favorable to our oil interests.

    This is one example. There are a lot more. It was done for oil, for money, for profit - at the expense of the sovereign population. These are not 'conspiracy theories', these are confirmed facts that have come to light many years later. It's NOT a secret that the US government has overthrown foreign governments for private sector profit. If you believe otherwise, it's because you choose to delude yourself.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-07 at 03:25 PM ----------




    I already addressed this. What do YOU think the public reaction to forced drafting into military service in order to fight in Iran, Iraq, etc would be? Do you think the public reaction to such an action would be negligible?

    Politicians are not at the point yet that they simply 'determine' what will be done with our lives, and if we choose NOT to join the military, they just flip the switch and send us to war unwillingly.
    But didn't you use wikipedia as a reference? do you get all your information from reference sources that can be written by anyone including the likes of Jedward?

    The contributions can be incorrect, deliberately altered or facts left out by accident, deliberately, whatever.

    And i can say first hand that I don't serve Queen and Country for the money, it helps keep me in the Army, but I joined because it's all I've ever wanted to do, well, that and be a fluffer or astronaut.

    Also remember, what a lot of people see is what the media chooses to show you, soldiers out on the ground see a very differnet picture, I was once begged not to leave Iraq after the war because the people of Basrah were scared that if we left like we did in the first Gulf War, Saddam Hussein would once again return and punish the area. Other Iraqis no doubt wanted us gone ASAP.

    I don't listen to the media, hyppie friends that tell me war is bad (no crap? war isn't a good thing? dam, and here i thought it was a way to bring countries together (sarcasm in case you couldn't tell)), people in the street campaigning against "the baby killers", despite never having left Sheffield they know everything that happened during our 7 years in Iraq, when they were 11, etc. I form my own opinion about why we are were we are.

    Soldiers go where they are sent, most want to because we don't want to be the guy left behind when our friends go. It is, in general, what we signed up for. Even if we don't know the facts, that's not our job. Our job is to go, do the job, come home to our families for tea and medals and if necessary, pay the ultimate sacrifice.

    I've seen that the OP changed how he worded things in his first post as an attack on policies rather than the military, so fair play mate.

    And whomever it was that said militaried are used to opress, please, differentiate between the militaries of developed countries with democracy and undeveloped or dictatorships. The British Army have only been on it's own streets to combat terrorism from both sides in Northern Ireland and in case you didn't know, we don't do that anymore and I doubt anyone would want us to again. It's a different mentality in the soldiers these days because of what has been done in Iraq and Afghanistan. No one would want these soldiers doing that job ever again. The only other time you see British troops on British streets outside of parades is to cover for fire fighter strikes and relieve disasters such as mass flooding.

  14. #514
    Quote Originally Posted by Elemair View Post
    The United States of America doesn't pay interest on this loan, they don't pay it back at all...
    http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=1258
    http://www.nbcnews.com/business/econ...lars-go-654971

    When you decide to make things up it's better to pick things that can't be so easily disproven. 6 cents of every dollar we spend is spent on paying the interest of our loans. That is a fact. We pay interest on our loans. You can't demand money from other countries and not pay them interest on the loan. Pretty simple economics.

    The world economy or American economy is not on the verge of collapse. And there's really no amount we can barrow that will cause such a thing to happen. But that's not what I'm saying. You claimed it just wasn't an issue. Democrats and Republicans both recognize the debt is a problem. You saying that it is trillions of dollars is not news to anybody who has watched the news ever. The debt is a problem because it takes away from our actual spending every year. How is that not an issue? If that causes us to not be able to balance the budget, we borrow more, then need to borrow more the next year etc.

    The reason you don't hear about ways to fix the debt isn't because it doesn't need to be done. It's because to do it you need to raise taxes and Americans don't want to raise taxes on something that doesn't add to programs. Getting rid of the debt will increase the value of the dollar and help stabilize the economy. In recessions it isn't really beneficial to tackle the debt, but outside of recessions it is and presidents have reduced it in the past http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...es_public_debt.

    It seems like you're getting your information from how you feel rather than facts. We do pay interest on loans like everyone else. The debt is a problem. Congress and presidents have worked the reduce the debt in the past. Spreading misinformation is bad.

  15. #515
    The Insane Bakis's Avatar
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    In Sweden they do not. They fight for other peoples presumed freedoms in different parts of the world.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ulmita View Post
    Did you read how US is trying to destabilize pacific (china-jap) area too? They are sending warships down there. We might be seeing a new military force being created out of those two nations that will counter NATO (with EASE)

  16. #516
    Quote Originally Posted by Proberly View Post
    Oh a country declared war upon USA and did this, did they?

    So it wasnt just an organization that did it?

    I suggest you hang your head in shame, and appologize to whatever immaginary country you just insulted.
    The organisation responsible was al queda and they operated out of several countries at once, but their main base of operations was in Afghanistan. When the Taliban were approached by the US to assist in the capture of its leaders, they refused to assist, resulting in a NATO mission to route out the terrorists. Had the Taliban assisted, it realistic to presume they would still be in power now. You can see the difference as central government in Pakistan is at least putting up the pretence that they are assisted in the fight against terrorism and therefore have not had even the threat of invasion (not that most of NATO can afford another war anyhow).

    So in summary, by failing to assist in the capture or termination of the continued threat that was al queda and openly blocking George dubya, they left no other option to neutralise the threat via open warfare with the Taliban siding with the US 's enemy. Since then, it has been guerrilla warfare against an enemy only interested in its own outcomes and its hardlined attitudes, no matter who is hurt, which is much different to its NATO backed origins, the mudjahedin, who were for the people.

  17. #517
    Quote Originally Posted by Stellalock View Post
    The organisation responsible was al queda and they operated out of several countries at once, but their main base of operations was in Afghanistan. When the Taliban were approached by the US to assist in the capture of its leaders, they refused to assist, resulting in a NATO mission to route out the terrorists. Had the Taliban assisted, it realistic to presume they would still be in power now. You can see the difference as central government in Pakistan is at least putting up the pretence that they are assisted in the fight against terrorism and therefore have not had even the threat of invasion (not that most of NATO can afford another war anyhow).

    So in summary, by failing to assist in the capture or termination of the continued threat that was al queda and openly blocking George dubya, they left no other option to neutralise the threat via open warfare with the Taliban siding with the US 's enemy. Since then, it has been guerrilla warfare against an enemy only interested in its own outcomes and its hardlined attitudes, no matter who is hurt, which is much different to its NATO backed origins, the mudjahedin, who were for the people.
    uhm i thought i´d read somewhere that they actually tried to assist but the US refused... or was that iran?

    i guess the US isn´t fighting pakistan is because pakistan actually owns nuclear weapons and not because "yeah they are allright, they hid bin laden but well at least they tried"
    secretly gay

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    and i will be remembered forever as the pants hat glove shoes naked guy from vienna

  18. #518
    Brewmaster Ysilla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyve View Post
    Let me answer this for you; Yes.

    Whatever your opinions and views are, generally people who serve in the Military are good, honest people who want to do nothing more to serve their country in one of the most dangerous, and courageous ways possible. To hate people who are in the Military, on the basis that they advocate war is childish and pathetic.
    This is strange, he is talking about what they do, you are talking about who they are. That's two very different things. Most people in the military are good, honest people yes, does that mean what they are asked to do is good and honest too ? No.

  19. #519
    I am thankfull, but it's a job like any other. A baker for example is just as important to keep the country/world working. People who are more thankfull for military serving their country are rather ignorant of how important other jobs are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ysilla View Post
    This is strange, he is talking about what they do, you are talking about who they are. That's two very different things. Most people in the military are good, honest people yes, does that mean what they are asked to do is good and honest too ? No.
    Interesting point. I personally hadn't thought of it like that.

  20. #520
    Quote Originally Posted by Proberly View Post
    Oh a country declared war upon USA and did this, did they?

    So it wasnt just an organization that did it?

    I suggest you hang your head in shame, and appologize to whatever immaginary country you just insulted.
    Go take a trip to Lybia or Pakistan please and say you are an American. You will realize real fast what the military prevents from happening to you.
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