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  1. #1

    Cloak and Dagger vs Shadow Step?

    So I've been wondering with the updates to the patch notes, we have to choose between the two level 60 talents. From a PVP perspective, what do you guys think will play out better?

    From what I can see Cloak and Dagger gives a significant adv. during dance/opener (counter flare?) but that's all it really does is help once a minute. Shadow step being able to target friendlies and usable every 20 odd seconds seems like more of a tool that can be used both offensively and defensively.

    Over to you.
    I would agree with you...but then we'd both be wrong.

  2. #2
    Shadowstep is more versatile (i.e. if you're playing Assassination and open with Mutilate), but Cloak and Dagger can give more movement depending on the situation.

    Side note: There's an ICD of 60 seconds on Cloak and Dagger? Because that just kind of kills it.
    Carp - Illidan-US
    I wish I wish I was a fish.
    Rogue - Warlock

  3. #3
    No ICD. He is referring to Cloak and Dagger being used in combination with Shadow Dance once a minute.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Carp The Fish View Post
    Shadowstep is more versatile (i.e. if you're playing Assassination and open with Mutilate), but Cloak and Dagger can give more movement depending on the situation.

    Side note: There's an ICD of 60 seconds on Cloak and Dagger? Because that just kind of kills it.
    Nope no ICD and the icing on the cake is the fact that it teleports you even when affected by roots. So it makes you effectively unpeelable during dance. Whereas shadowstep can prove ineffective when rooted but provides more versatility due to the short CD and use out of stealth with being able to teleport to friendlies and hostile targets.

    I'm just wondering how the two will compare in arena, it'll be interesting to get different views from experienced PVPers (I, for one am not :P).
    I would agree with you...but then we'd both be wrong.

  5. #5
    In arena, I'd think Cloak and Dagger would trump Shadowstep. Teleporting around to stun-lock 2 of the 3 people w/ Cheap Shots as the opener? Yes please!

    If you're playing defensive (Rogues usually don't, but...), Shadowstep might come out better because it'll give you more access to Smoke Bombing the opponent's focus target (e.g. if they're focusing your healer, Shadowstep and Smoke Bomb to mitigate it).
    Carp - Illidan-US
    I wish I wish I was a fish.
    Rogue - Warlock

  6. #6
    I'm pretty sure cloak and dagger will be overpowered. I desperately hope it doesn't get shadowmeld nerfed before it itself gets nerfed.

    The move is DUMB because it works with shadow dance, and only one spec has that. I think that's badly designed- an assassination or combat rogue would be a fool to take this talent.
    The move is OP because it creates a situation where you are hard to peel and have access to extra control during dance. Dance is already powerful. This makes it a mini-avatar.
    The move is WORRISOME because it has synergy with shadowmeld, which could get the ability of shadowmeld to provide full cost openers nerfed. That would be tragic, given the prevalence of the more repped rogue races (undead is tops of course, but human is also well repped)
    The move is FRUSTRATING because it will only work under such situations. Shadowstep is a much more reasonable gap closer, and has had counters added to it, such as the inability to use while rooted.

    I think hit and run was much more interesting, and I'm definitely concerned about this move in pvp.


    We'll see though.

  7. #7
    Agree that it sounds too OP. Don't get me wrong I love how it finally makes my rogue feel like a deadly killer, zipping out of the shadows from target to another, but other classes will never stand for it and they'll be forced to nerf it. Also dislike how it forces people into the mindset that Sub is the goto PvP spec. I prefer Sub myself but they should at least try to balance around two viable specs at least to give people a choice. Coz isn't that one of the major problems with our class nowadays, lack of flavor and identity.

  8. #8
    I definitely feel forced into sub. The reason is really that the other specs don't offer enough. And I've HAD it with the excuse that S is too good, or whatever. S is terrible on live and C and A have been awful since 4.0. I know because I've played hundreds of arena games (some above 2000, though obviously not this season) with each spec, but I always have to go sub for high ratings (or mediocre ones this season). S was a bit too good in 4.3, mostly carried by pve tricks and a dance that was (and maybe is) too threatening. The solution appears to be to make dance even MORE threatening?

    But without SERIOUS compensatory buffs, you break game playe. If you took cheap shot and garrote off of shadow dance, this class would have been a trashbag in pvp, for instance. C and A need something to make them scary in pvp. C isn't too far off to be honest- killing spree is actually really good, and revealing strike kidney shot is very strong, and even AR demands a counter in pvp. I think C could use some CC immunity at times, just a bit, because so many of combat's stuff demands high uptime. A I think could use a lot of help. Stripping cold blood and nerves of steel out of the spec with no compensation was really low class, and if you just watch meters in pve you'll see that mutilate's sustained is what keeps it a desired spec, while other specs can burst up to four times as hard- and they have abilities to stay on target. I sometimes wonder what would happen if you just made A 100% unpeelable- would it compare to other melee then?

    Anyway, if we get cloak and dagger, then you can only take the talent if you are sub- and currently I'm predicting, you'll want to take the talent, and be sub.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Varian View Post
    So I've been wondering with the updates to the patch notes, we have to choose between the two level 60 talents. From a PVP perspective, what do you guys think will play out better?

    From what I can see Cloak and Dagger gives a significant adv. during dance/opener (counter flare?) but that's all it really does is help once a minute. Shadow step being able to target friendlies and usable every 20 odd seconds seems like more of a tool that can be used both offensively and defensively.

    Over to you.
    Don't forget that rogues also have vanish, and preparation. Making CAD able to be used 2 times after your 1 minute CD on SD.

  10. #10
    Cloak and dagger as of the last build doesn't work rooted anymore and obeys los. I don't think many will use this now with how bad rogue mobility is with shadow step going to a 1min cd gap closer that doesn't break anything doesn't seem that great.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by wow View Post
    Cloak and dagger as of the last build doesn't work rooted anymore and obeys los. I don't think many will use this now with how bad rogue mobility is with shadow step going to a 1min cd gap closer that doesn't break anything doesn't seem that great.
    Wow, that nerf came a whole faster than I expected. LOL

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Varian View Post
    So I've been wondering with the updates to the patch notes, we have to choose between the two level 60 talents. From a PVP perspective, what do you guys think will play out better?

    From what I can see Cloak and Dagger gives a significant adv. during dance/opener (counter flare?) but that's all it really does is help once a minute. Shadow step being able to target friendlies and usable every 20 odd seconds seems like more of a tool that can be used both offensively and defensively.

    Over to you.
    Why are everyone ignoring burst of speed? Its a halftime sprint on demand which also removes slows for only 30energy, giving us hit and run to restealth With 1min CoS will be awesome as hell.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by ikas6 View Post
    Why are everyone ignoring burst of speed? Its a halftime sprint on demand which also removes slows for only 30energy, giving us hit and run to restealth With 1min CoS will be awesome as hell.
    BoS doesn't get you across desecration/flare/etc, can't help with z-axis issues, telegraphs your intentions, and doesn't allow for step-kicks. Not saying it's useless, but it does lack a lot of bonuses that shadowstep gives.

  14. #14
    Stood in the Fire zanexlol's Avatar
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    Seeing as ShS's usable on friendly targets, I'd say it's probably be the better choice in most situations.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by discoepfeand View Post
    BoS doesn't get you across desecration/flare/etc, can't help with z-axis issues, telegraphs your intentions, and doesn't allow for step-kicks. Not saying it's useless, but it does lack a lot of bonuses that shadowstep gives.
    but it gives us what we need, having mobility like a feral just that you run at 170% speed instead of 150ish% speed costing energy instead of mana, dont see the downside cus it offers both offensive and defensive capabilities forever instead of every 24sec. 4sec duration, energy regen is at 10base each sec, 40 energy in 4 sec, the ability cost 30 energy so you could litterally use it every 3sec as long as you want to run, a warrrior apply hamstring every 1.5 sec, most of the time its applied every 3 sec cus he want to do damage too, so you can remove it everytime while running shitloads faster then him so he must use charge/leap/whatever and he will only do damage in the stuns, its also a great tool to LoS all casters, except maybe mage and druid cus of massroots, effectively stopping any caster pressure

  16. #16
    BoS is a bad talent.

    It clearly nullifies t1 night stalker and CnD provide instant catch up or step to get away. Why do you need to run when you can simply tp over? even in stealth why should I spam BoS since it doesn't break roots anymore when I can shadow sap/kick instantly?

    BoS is a victim of bad design and with the new updates to CnD not breaking roots also makes it bad since its the same as shadow step now only usable in stealth whether that's vanish dance or meld. I think they seriously need to reconsider rogue talents cause it seems like they counteract one talent tier with another which again sadly to say leaves rogues with cookie cutter builds and same old problems..

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-08 at 02:11 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by wow View Post
    Cloak and dagger as of the last build doesn't work rooted anymore and obeys los. I don't think many will use this now with how bad rogue mobility is with shadow step going to a 1min cd gap closer that doesn't break anything doesn't seem that great.
    I don't see the 1 min cd for step on the notes? Is this after feb 5? Cause that is a pretty devastating change that will simply make us a joke against kiting classes.
    Last edited by Varian; 2013-02-08 at 02:13 PM.
    I would agree with you...but then we'd both be wrong.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Varian View Post
    BoS is a bad talent.

    It clearly nullifies t1 night stalker and CnD provide instant catch up or get away. Why do you need to run when you can simply tp over? even in stealth why should I spam BoS since it doesn't break roots anymore when I can shadow sap/kick instantly?

    BoS is a victim of bad design and with the new updates to CnD not breaking roots also makes it bad since its the same as shadow step nut only usable in stealth whether that's vanish dance or meld. I think they seriously need to reconsider rogue talents cause it seems like they counteract one talent tier with another which again sadly to say leaves rogues with cookie cutter builds and same old problems..

    simplicity vs usefullness

    BoS wins imo, sure i cant instant kick someone far away, i cant instantly teleport where i want...every 24sec, but i can play tactical to counter some cons of the rogue class and that is survivability, shadowstepkick is survivability ofc and closes the gap to your target for about 6sec, while i can keep on a target with BoS for aslong as i dont get rooted/CCd while shadowstep cant do shit while its not up, BoS is always or near always up if you want.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by ikas6 View Post
    simplicity vs usefullness

    BoS wins imo, sure i cant instant kick someone far away, i cant instantly teleport where i want...every 24sec, but i can play tactical to counter some cons of the rogue class and that is survivability, shadowstepkick is survivability ofc and closes the gap to your target for about 6sec, while i can keep on a target with BoS for aslong as i dont get rooted/CCd while shadowstep cant do shit while its not up, BoS is always or near always up if you want.
    Valid point but making good swaps with BoS is a whole lot slower than step redirect kidney dance. BoS might be good if you're playing defensive maybe because if you have to use it a lot to stay on a target you're gonna end up energy starved and with rogues hitting like wet noodles anyway means you can't apply pressure.
    I would agree with you...but then we'd both be wrong.

  19. #19
    If C+D no longer breaks roots and BoS no longer breaks roots, they clearly want us to sit in roots a lot.

    This probably fixes the "C+D mandatory" thing, because rogues will be peelable in dance.

    Burst is a niche talent on live- I use it versus mage teams BECAUSE it breaks roots. Mages don't even NEED roots versus rogues on live though, so it's kind of unimportant. The changes will make it better versus melee cleave (and melee in general). I actually suspect it will be possible to 5-8 kite warriors for a bit with it even, and it will be helpful to LoS and generally keep mobility up.

    My prediction thus far is this:

    For levelling, all of these talents are appealing, but cloak and dagger is the functional winner. Burst of speed my actually be more popular, however.

    Running around in the world and expecting pvp, you would probably want cloak and dagger if you are sub, as almost your whole fight will involve dance. It's still way much better for sub than the others unless they make it not work with danced openers. If you are another spec, burst might be better but more rogues will opt for step, because it is more powerful, and the cooldown that balances that isn't important in most play.

    In RBGs, I think rogues will be better off with C+D. Given the wild variety of peels (enough that you can't fight through them with merely a step or a snare break) and the general number of enemies, I think C+D will give you the ability to get what you want, when you want it. It is often easier to meaningfully disengage in an RBG, and if you are getting restealths then C+D is even better.

    In arenas I think it will be comp dependent. Versus double melee, you will probably want burst of speed- you'll have not many issues staying on target, and those you do have will often be caused by snares. Burst gives you snare supremacy, and also will allow you to, at moderate to full pool, burst and back attack a target in a manner not as great as step- but that's still nice to land kidneys. Versus other comps I'm a bit up in the air. I mean, would C+D or step help you more versus a mage/lock type of comp? Hrm.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Varian View Post
    I don't see the 1 min cd for step on the notes? Is this after feb 5? Cause that is a pretty devastating change that will simply make us a joke against kiting classes.
    This thread is about what vs what? 1 min is the cd on dance that should clear the rest up. My point was our mobility is bad with shadow step, going to a higher cd gap closer that no longer has any other perks isn't that good of idea.

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