Cloak and Dagger vs Shadow Step?

[Divinator]

Shadow step for mut and combat, CnD for sub most likely (still going to be a toss-uo). CnD is designed for sub specifically, which is sad.

On top of all that, currently on the ptr CnD does not ignore los and u can still be rooted. The times when you could ignore LoS and not be rooted was not intentional and has been fixed.

Just a heads up.

[Speaknoevil]

I really hope CnD gets replaced by something else, Hit and Run is put in, and they revert shadowstep to 20s CD 4s sprint baseline.

I don't think the root removal would be fair, but snare removal yes.

[shadowboy]

BoS is a bad talent.

It clearly nullifies t1 night stalker

How, exactly, does BoS nullify night stalker?

[Sesshou]

How, exactly, does BoS nullify night stalker?

I think hes talking about the movement speed part. If you take BoS, you don't gain movement speed while stealthed by choosing night stalker over shadow focus because you'll be able to spam BoS for free in 5.2 without breaking stealth (or can you do that on live already?). The movement speed is also the primary reason you'd be interested in night stalker as if you wanted damage, SF or subterfuge are better options.

[Mazius]

I think hes talking about the movement speed part. If you take BoS, you don't gain movement speed while stealthed by choosing night stalker over shadow focus because you'll be able to spam BoS for free in 5.2 without breaking stealth.

BoS costs 8 energy with Shadow Focus on PTR, so not exactly for free.

[Anium]

Shadow Step always and forever.

[shadowboy]

I think hes talking about the movement speed part. If you take BoS, you don't gain movement speed while stealthed by choosing night stalker over shadow focus because you'll be able to spam BoS for free in 5.2 without breaking stealth (or can you do that on live already?). The movement speed is also the primary reason you'd be interested in night stalker as if you wanted damage, SF or subterfuge are better options.

Night Stalker stacks with all movement increases--even with the cyclonic inspiration buff in shrine of two moons. You take your nonstealth speed and multiply it by 1.2 and that's your night stalker speed. So yes, you DO gain movement speed with BoS if you take night stalker.

Baseline Night stalker: 120%
Night Stalker with runspeed boot enchant (before getting fleet footed): 130%
Night stalker with fleet footed: 138%
Night stalker with BoS/sprint/ShS: 204%
Night stalker with glyphed sprint: 240%

Note that I see no reason to take night stalker at level cap (I used it when leveling 85-90. It's a very, VERY good leveling talent), but it's not invalidated by BoS at all. Night stalker really needs to have either the damage bonus or movement speed buffed to really be competitive with either of the other two at end game (which would make it an even more OP leveling talent, but there is nothing wrong with that, imo).

[Sesshou]

Ah, didn't realize they stacked. I've honestly never bothered to spec into nightstalker. I really liked SF for leveling, especially the last several.

I'd still say that is probably what he meant though.

[Kezuma]

I really hope CnD gets replaced by something else, Hit and Run is put in, and they revert shadowstep to 20s CD 4s sprint baseline.

I don't think the root removal would be fair, but snare removal yes.

why would u guys want Hit and Run as a bloody talent tree when the monks have it for free ( http://www.wowhead.com/spell=101643/transcendence )

seriously blizz needs to bring something cool inovative or so not just to take the spells from 1 class and place it to another and just rename it ( hit and run is totally useless comes to think u have only 10 sec to use it while the monks dont have that penality they can use it when they want )

but ye just my 2 cents about 1 spell that is totally amaizing for monks ( would be so bad for rogues consider u have 10 sec window and u waste 1 talent point for it )

[Verain]

Transcendence can be used to put yourself to a predictable spot. Hit and Run could be used to put yourself in an arbitrary spot.

[Kezuma]

Transcendence can be used to put yourself to a predictable spot. Hit and Run could be used to put yourself in an arbitrary spot.

i still dont see why ppl would wanna use that 45 sec CD is madness for a 10 sec use that can be easy countrable , Hit and Run is just bad and i'm glad it didnt maked out , now on the other hand cloak and dagger is not the best in history either since it favours Sub and ppl that just wanna have some fun with combat or muti will never pick that.
I;m looking at monks lvl 60 talents they get and is stupidly op what they get compare with the bullshit options we have

[Speaknoevil]

Cloak and Dagger reduces the skill required to play a spec, thus it's wrong.

Hit and Run and a Baseline 20s Shadowstep would be worlds better. Hit and run is interesting and has *had* a lot of potential.

[Mafic]

Nightstalker is no longer a worthy talent selection with the new BoS or CnD. It simply feels gimped compared to Shadow Focus and Subterfuge.

[Verain]

Nightstalker and Burst of Speed should stack, so will technically be the fastest rogue with both. At 30 energy for 4 seconds of sprint, you shouldn't be going ooe like that.

However, Nightstalker is honestly a pretty anemic talent. You'll still be slower than a prowling cat if they take equivalent talents, and ambush at 60 energy is simply very expensive even with +25% damage. The movement speed increase could be higher OR it could offer a small nonstealthed boost in addition AND/OR it could also incorporate the effects of Glyph of Stealth. But these should probably be combined with ambush coming down from 60 energy to something that makes sense, such as 50 (40 would be ideal, but might crash into some design goal).

---------- Post added 2013-02-19 at 04:30 PM ----------

My reasoning for supporting Hit and Run was this: I want that ability. It seems cool. I like having different powers on my rogue. I like having a freedom in my talent tree, and I'm sad to see it leave, for instance. We don't have any ability like this, and unlike heroic leap, it would be very much opt-in. If your critique is basically "You shouldn't support it because the other options are better for the rogue class", well, I accept that. Cloak and Dagger will probably be the stronger option, though post-nerf I don't think it will feel mandatory. Given how often you can leave combat for just a moment, however, I think C+D will remain powerful and desired, and could MAYBE still bring other nerfs down on our heads.

[bzhai]

Cloak and Dagger reduces the skill required to play a spec, thus it's wrong.

Hit and Run and a Baseline 20s Shadowstep would be worlds better. Hit and run is interesting and has *had* a lot of potential.

Not to mention the potential to add some cool factor back into the class. I was thinking having your rogue disappear in a puff of smoke when it expires or a glyph that leaves your decoy behind.

[shadowboy]

Nightstalker and Burst of Speed should stack, so will technically be the fastest rogue with both. At 30 energy for 4 seconds of sprint, you shouldn't be going ooe like that.

However, Nightstalker is honestly a pretty anemic talent. You'll still be slower than a prowling cat if they take equivalent talents, and ambush at 60 energy is simply very expensive even with +25% damage. The movement speed increase could be higher OR it could offer a small nonstealthed boost in addition AND/OR it could also incorporate the effects of Glyph of Stealth. But these should probably be combined with ambush coming down from 60 energy to something that makes sense, such as 50 (40 would be ideal, but might crash into some design goal).[COLOR="red"]

I agree with you. The best thing they could do to make nightstalker desirable is to remove master of subtlety from sub spec (which will make prep/vanish less of a pve dps racial, outside of the obvious benefits to FW uptime they provide) and incorporate the 6 sec of +10% damage once out of stealth. It fits in with the theme of the talent tier and might even put night stalker on par with subterfuge and shadow focus (and it would be easy to tune).

Night stalker is a great leveling talent--best of the 3, imo, but it's just not worth taking at level cap.

[Verain]

I agree with you. The best thing they could do to make nightstalker desirable is to remove master of subtlety from sub spec (which will make prep/vanish less of a pve dps racial, outside of the obvious benefits to FW uptime they provide)

Racial? I think you meant cooldown. The only racial related to openers is shadowmeld, which grants find weakness but not master of subtlety.

I think putting MoS on the move isn't a bad idea, but it risks going from never chosen to 100% mandatory. If all three moves granted a bit of dps in different ways, why, rogues might even have a talent tree with some relation to the rest of the game!

[shadowboy]

Yes, I meant cooldown. And I doubt night stalker would be 100% mandatory with Master of subtlety. It would compete well with 3 sec of extra openers or 75% reduced cost on openers. It doesn't have to be +10% damage for 6 sec, it can be whatever amount is enough to tune it to be relatively balanced against subterfuge and shadow focus. The damage bonus of night stalker can also be tuned to balance it out in light of a MoS effect.

[Carismo]

Stop saying CnD is on a 1 min cd because it isn't, on the other hand I don't like the talent because you will have to either use a 1 min cd or a 2 min cd to do the same thing as Shadowstep does - on a 24 sec cd and also saves those precious CDs we all love so much!

Now I believe CnD has it perks aswell, (haven't tried it) like CloS + SD could be devistating for casters, especially a recently blocked mage. (you don't have to spend energy on stuns/silences means more dmg) Mass ccing and what have already been said in this thread.
I still see the problem to be able to step to a friendly target for example eating a trap, defensive bombing, RoP etc. etc.

Maybe it's just me but I've been playing with ShS since it came right before release of TBC and I'm addicted to it.

Infracted: thread necromancy

[Mugajak]

Closing this as it's a necro'd thread with 2 other current threads on the same topic.