Fury Warrior help (H raiding)

[Darkfriend]

Landsoul did the math, for TG warriors crit rates higher than str by some distance - granted the difference is small but it is better: this will be even greater in 5.2 because of the haste changes for warriors.

Again, depends on gear level. I'm currently at str-1, crit is .92

[Hakto]

Again, depends on gear level. I'm currently at str-1, crit is .92

I assume you are using simcraft?

Simcraft is off for warriors, they have not had a warrior dev for a long time.

Don't believe me, fine.

Of course you could go ask Landsoul yourself.

[Ochron]

I assume you are using simcraft?

Simcraft is off for warriors, they have not had a warrior dev for a long time.

Don't believe me, fine.

Of course you could go ask Landsoul yourself.

The uptime for the crit buff to make this worthwhile would have to be unrealistically high. Using this set up will probably only net you a gain in some super small percentage of pulls. I think it is a load of crap anyway. I need actual math, not "this guy just says so."

[esoterickk]

(such as some people saying glyph of recklessness is a DPS decrease, which is just flat out wrong)

The glyph I find to just be common sense. The main reason we want crit is for bloodthirst. An extra 30% chance to crit is more than enough for it to crit, since its chance is doubled, combined with its normal chance to crit, should have it over 100% chance. That's an extra 2 guaranteed crits for bloodthirst. Anything over that 30% is just overkill, and I find that the other abilities crit more often than not with only the 30% as well.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. So very wrong.

The main factor for not glyphing reck is due to higher chance to Crit on abilities within the CS window (especially through Execute range). When you have a lower crit chance in the CS window, it means you have less chance for your abilities to crit within here, meaning lower damage overall.

But people like you incorrectly assume the only contributing factor from crit is for BT to get RB's only, which is wrong, it's all about the abilities used within the CS.

[Hakto]

The uptime for the crit buff to make this worthwhile would have to be unrealistically high. Using this set up will probably only net you a gain in some super small percentage of pulls. I think it is a load of crap anyway. I need actual math, not "this guy just says so."

I didn't do the math - sue me.

Landsoul did, it is not just the crit up time that puts it ahead, it's also that TG has sufficient crit to make the mastery useful, the only downside is the haste but it still comes out ahead.

I've directed you to the person that did the math if you can actually be bothered to get the "actual math" instead of just assuming it's crap.

The difference is not huge - I stated this already, but it is better.

[Brakthir]

Uh, no, that guy is right Darkfriend. Fury isn't good outside of CS windows and execute phase. They burst high at the start and can burst high in a CS but other classes will usually bypass them till execute phase where they have a decent chance of catching up.

[Darkfriend]

Uh, no, that guy is right Darkfriend. Fury isn't good outside of CS windows and execute phase. They burst high at the start and can burst high in a CS but other classes will usually bypass them till execute phase where they have a decent chance of catching up.

Obviously. That's not to say Fury warriors are weak. Hell, one of the main jobs of fury is to manage resources properly for a CS phase. I was addressing (I believe) whoever said fury warriors are weak ATM. Which is patently false. If you only consider one aspect of a class to pass judgement, unless that aspect has some immediate bearing on a fight (Such as too long ramp up for a spine style fight). The only reason to consider a warrior being slightly weaker until execute phase instead of considering how strong a warrior would be on the entire fight is if the slight weakness PREVENTED getting to the other phase.

Since the most optimal time to hit CS is every 22.5 seconds, assuming a fairly average 42-45% crit chance on BT (my average last I checked) you'll have a max of 5 RB procs in this period. Since there is no way to save the first RB proc after a CS phase ends (since it will either time out, or need to be spent to prevent an overwrite) you're left with a max of 4 RB procs, ignoring b.rage and CS crit (the later won't matter for this example, the former doesn't either really.) Thus, you're left with very few RB procs that are used outside of a CS phase, comparatively

Nuance matters. For example, people look at raidbots and say LOL ARMS SUCKS. And they are partially right. But part of that is more, better, and better geared players are playing fury, so the total number of high arms parses are lower than if arms were as popular (but the same strength.) Because more people play a slightly stronger spec, because it is strong, the more the weaker spec looks even weaker than it is. (Say there is a real 15% DPS difference between the two. Because more people play fury, the number appears to be more like 20-25%, as an example.)

TL;DR, it is not that warriors are weak outside of CS as much as they are so strong in it, and prepare and plan for it accordingly. If you ignored this planning, obviously warriors would be stronger outside of CS (Although OBVIOUSLY much lower on DPS.)

You're using the same flawed argument that people use when they say warriors executes are too strong. Are they strong? Yes. But you have to consider everything else. The prep before execute phase, all CDs, 120 rage, potion, etc. You have to consider that, although execute is a large % of damage, that you are replacing other things with execute, which needs to be accounted for.

It is the same flaw Bastiat addressed in "That which is seen, and that which is unseen" and the famous broken window example. People look at one aspect, and forget everything else. Doing so leads to flawed logic.

TL;DR, it isn't that warriors are BAD outside of CS/execute, it is that they are so much better inside of those phases, and those two things are NOT the same at all.

[Ochron]

I didn't do the math - sue me.

Landsoul did, it is not just the crit up time that puts it ahead, it's also that TG has sufficient crit to make the mastery useful, the only downside is the haste but it still comes out ahead.

I've directed you to the person that did the math if you can actually be bothered to get the "actual math" instead of just assuming it's crap.

The difference is not huge - I stated this already, but it is better.

I was hoping you had a link to a post or something where he discussed it. The fact of the matter is that the stat weights between SMF and TG are identical, besides Strength. And by by this I mean 1 point of Crit for SMF and TG are essentially equal. For whatever reason, SMF just values Strength higher.

This would be the main reason for the argument, however, Dancing Steel still offers more Strength than Wind song can give Crit. So, even though Strength and Crit are about 1:1 for TG, DS still gives more stats.

[Kurimlinn]

I was hoping you had a link to a post or something where he discussed it. The fact of the matter is that the stat weights between SMF and TG are identical, besides Strength. And by by this I mean 1 point of Crit for SMF and TG are essentially equal. For whatever reason, SMF just values Strength higher.

This would be the main reason for the argument, however, Dancing Steel still offers more Strength than Wind song can give Crit. So, even though Strength and Crit are about 1:1 for TG, DS still gives more stats.

This is wrong, crit is better for TG because RB is more important for TG. Since it is completely weapon damage, it will hit harder than SMF, therefore getting as many RB's as possible is more crucial to TG.

[Deleted]

Uh, no, that guy is right Darkfriend. Fury isn't good outside of CS windows and execute phase. They burst high at the start and can burst high in a CS but other classes will usually bypass them till execute phase where they have a decent chance of catching up.

Why thank you for the kind support good sir!

---------- Post added 2013-02-15 at 01:15 AM ----------

Obviously. That's not to say Fury warriors are weak. Hell, one of the main jobs of fury is to manage resources properly for a CS phase. I was addressing (I believe) whoever said fury warriors are weak ATM. Which is patently false. If you only consider one aspect of a class to pass judgement, unless that aspect has some immediate bearing on a fight (Such as too long ramp up for a spine style fight). The only reason to consider a warrior being slightly weaker until execute phase instead of considering how strong a warrior would be on the entire fight is if the slight weakness PREVENTED getting to the other phase.

Since the most optimal time to hit CS is every 22.5 seconds, assuming a fairly average 42-45% crit chance on BT (my average last I checked) you'll have a max of 5 RB procs in this period. Since there is no way to save the first RB proc after a CS phase ends (since it will either time out, or need to be spent to prevent an overwrite) you're left with a max of 4 RB procs, ignoring b.rage and CS crit (the later won't matter for this example, the former doesn't either really.) Thus, you're left with very few RB procs that are used outside of a CS phase, comparatively

Nuance matters. For example, people look at raidbots and say LOL ARMS SUCKS. And they are partially right. But part of that is more, better, and better geared players are playing fury, so the total number of high arms parses are lower than if arms were as popular (but the same strength.) Because more people play a slightly stronger spec, because it is strong, the more the weaker spec looks even weaker than it is. (Say there is a real 15% DPS difference between the two. Because more people play fury, the number appears to be more like 20-25%, as an example.)

TL;DR, it is not that warriors are weak outside of CS as much as they are so strong in it, and prepare and plan for it accordingly. If you ignored this planning, obviously warriors would be stronger outside of CS (Although OBVIOUSLY much lower on DPS.)

You're using the same flawed argument that people use when they say warriors executes are too strong. Are they strong? Yes. But you have to consider everything else. The prep before execute phase, all CDs, 120 rage, potion, etc. You have to consider that, although execute is a large % of damage, that you are replacing other things with execute, which needs to be accounted for.

It is the same flaw Bastiat addressed in "That which is seen, and that which is unseen" and the famous broken window example. People look at one aspect, and forget everything else. Doing so leads to flawed logic.

TL;DR, it isn't that warriors are BAD outside of CS/execute, it is that they are so much better inside of those phases, and those two things are NOT the same at all.

The original point I was making is that warriors are nothing to write home about outside of the execute phase, and that is still very true. It is especially frustrating on progress raids where oftentimes you will not reach the execute phase at all. Another example of where it is quite frustrating is fights like Empress where high dps is crucial to avoid extra add-phases. Warriors shine in an absolutely brutal way during execute, but by the time you get to that point the hard key parts of the fight are already gone and done.

[Ochron]

This is wrong, crit is better for TG because RB is more important for TG. Since it is completely weapon damage, it will hit harder than SMF, therefore getting as many RB's as possible is more crucial to TG.

Well, here is the interesting thing. All you have are words, whereas I have numbers.

Here are my SMF stat values:

and here are my TG stat values:

For full disclosure, all of my gear between the two specs are the same (besides weapons, obviously). For SMF I have a H Amber Shaper Sword and Normal Kil'rak. For TG I have Heroic Starshatter and Normal Shin'ka. Thus, I think the weapons are pretty comparable.

Now, take a second to look at those numbers. From my stat weights one can see that SMF actually values Crit more and Strength far more than TG does. And just to further prove my point my average SMF Raging Blow MH was 76,244 and OH was 60,216 whereas my TG MH was 90,141 and OH 54,556. So, adding those together yields average SMF RB at 136,460 and TG RB at 144,697. I wouldn't consider a 6% difference in damage as a whole hell of a lot more important.

[Brakthir]

Warriors are mid tier dps outside of execute. I don't like being balanced around execute phases. It's a bad idea and it was why execute was already nerfed during MoP Beta.

[Deleted]

Well, here is the interesting thing. All you have are words, whereas I have numbers.

For full disclosure, all of my gear between the two specs are the same (besides weapons, obviously). For SMF I have a H Amber Shaper Sword and Normal Kil'rak. For TG I have Heroic Starshatter and Normal Shin'ka. Thus, I think the weapons are pretty comparable.

Now, take a second to look at those numbers. From my stat weights one can see that SMF actually values Crit more and Strength far more than TG does. And just to further prove my point my average SMF Raging Blow MH was 76,244 and OH was 60,216 whereas my TG MH was 90,141 and OH 54,556. So, adding those together yields average SMF RB at 136,460 and TG RB at 144,697. I wouldn't consider a 6% difference in damage as a whole hell of a lot more important.

If I understood him correcly earlier the point he was trying to make was that crit is worth more relative to strength for TG than it is for SMF, which is exactly what your numbers show to be true. 1 crit is 0.99 strength for TG whereas 1crit is only 0.89 strength for SMF which is more than a 10% difference.

[Ochron]

If I understood him correcly earlier the point he was trying to make was that crit is worth more relative to strength for TG than it is for SMF, which is exactly what your numbers show to be true. 1 crit is 0.99 strength for TG whereas 1crit is only 0.89 strength for SMF which is more than a 10% difference.

Correct, but if you read my previous post I was saying that Dancing Steel gives you more Strength than Windsong will give you Crit. You'd need unrealistically high uptime on the Crit buff alone to make it worthwhile.

[Darkfriend]

Warriors are mid tier dps outside of execute. I don't like being balanced around execute phases. It's a bad idea and it was why execute was already nerfed during MoP Beta.

That is tantamount to saying Disc Priests are terrible healers without their bubbles. TECHNICALLY its true, but it ignores the fact that there is a mitigating factor, and also it's irrelevant UNLESS the fact that you aren't as strong outside of execute phase PREVENTS you from getting to execute in the first place, as shown.

If you want to argue that execute should be weaker, and the other 81% should be stronger, fine, but that is not the same argument as saying warriors are weak outside of execute/CS phase, and I've already addressed why that argument is inherently flawed.

Yes, it's precision. But it's important in the difference it makes.

Personally, and addressing the execute issue, I enjoy having a stronger execute than Cata, but I wouldn't mind it being changed somehow, perhaps by reducing damage, but giving an executioner style buff of some kind.

[Kurimlinn]

Simcraft is unreliable, I don't know why people think it's law. It shows me simmed at 108k which is completely off, I do much more than that consistently. As people have said, it has not had a warrior dev for along time.

[Deleted]

Simcraft is unreliable, I don't know why people think it's law. It shows me simmed at 108k which is completely off, I do much more than that consistently. As people have said, it has not had a warrior dev for along time.

On which fights though? Generally speaking simcraft shows an average run over say 25000 iterations on a patchwerk style fight, which means you get to nuke freely, but also means there's no aoe, there's no damage buffs like are available in very many fights in panda, and there's no gimmicks.

[Kalmah]

Which fights do you consistently do much more on? The only patchwerk fight in this tier is gara'jal, assuming you don't go in the spirit realm. It's a rather short fight though, especially if you have a raid full of people doing much more than 108k dps.

[Kurimlinn]

Yes, obviously I'm talking about Gara'jal dps.

[Deleted]

Yes, obviously I'm talking about Gara'jal dps.

Gara'jal is a shorter fight than what you're generally simming in simcraft. If everyone is doing around 100k dps then the fight is just over 3 minutes long. You're basically looking at a fight where you get to just pop all your heavy cooldowns for the 2nd time in execute phase with lust up and blow him away. And even then you don't see much higher numbers than 108k dps on many warriors at all. I rank 176th on him and below is our log for example.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...=1749#Adunazon