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  1. #1

    New to monk raid tanking, getting reamed

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...atass/advanced

    I just finished MSV with my raid. They've had it on farm pretty much, and I got geared up so I can tank. I feel like with every fight, I take a shitton of damage. I can't keep shuffle up more than 70% of the time because keg smash will get parried. I am soft capped for expertise but not hard capped. Even aside from that, I feel like I can't use guard or zen sphere/chi wave when I want to because I am so chi starved trying to keep shuffle up. Should I get hard capped on expertise? Is there anything else I should do for gear? My tanking trinkets are Jade Warlord Figurine and Iron Protector Talisman (h).

    Thanks,

  2. #2
    From the way you worded it it makes it look like you're not considering jabbing for chi.

    you are right? lol
    Quote Originally Posted by -Ethos- View Post
    I literally die every time i see people using literally wrong.

  3. #3
    Stood in the Fire Yorgl's Avatar
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    Well your nickname is appropriate, then !
    What the hell is wrong with your reforge ? You have more than 1.5% extra hit !!

    To answer your pb, I suggest you dig a bit in the forum there are many topics about this pb but be reassured : we all got wrecked when we began raiding. BrM can feel squishy (but is not, in fact) and is very skill dependant.
    Also, a good -as always- post from Sunnier : http://sunniersartofwar.com/blog/201...rning-program/

    At low gear I recommand staying soft caped exp. After, it's a question of personnal choice. Sunnier actually made a good post about it on her blog, so you might want to check the archives.

    And use weak aura to track, among other things, your stagger, personnal CDs, vengeance, etc..

  4. #4
    There is no soft and hard exp cap. There is a parry cap and a dodge cap. i would go for 15% so you have dodge and parry cap. and yes, too much hit, you only need 7,5. for red gems you can take haste/cit + agi. if you want to have a good trinket, get the DMC with agi and agi procc. atm it's DMF so it's cheaper.

  5. #5
    High Overlord Pippo89's Avatar
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    9.31% Hit? Reforge the 1.81% overcapped hit into haste or expertise. If your Keg Smash is parried this often, go for expertise.
    You are logged out as Windwalker. If you're having about 7.5% hit as BrM, forget about it.

    I'm having 9.43% exp on my warrior tank without using any exp gem, and it is indeed more comfortable than 7.5% exp.

    I hope roflwaffle above me is not right about Jab..
    My 88 monk has no real Chi problems and Blackout Kick buff is on 12-24s if I want. And with 88 I'm far away from being well geared.
    The roots of evil are deep. Irreversibly so in the hearts of men.

  6. #6
    Also get some professions.

  7. #7
    You'd get more chi from getting more haste, rather than more expertise. Sure, keg smash parries suck, but they don't happen often enough to warrant 15% expertise, especially when you're still gearing up. Your haste is relatively low too, so you should really look into getting more of that: gem for it, enchant for it, reforge for it, etc.

    You should also get some professions. I recommend Jewelcrafting and Blacksmithing: Jewelcrafting is incredibly versatile, as is Blacksmithing, and they work well together (JC has two epic gems, BS has two extra gem slots). Also in 5.2 Blacksmiths will be able to make amazing weapons, so that'll help you gear up.

    All that said, the main thing a Monk tank needs to do is learn how to use active mitigation correctly. Unfortunately we can't know if you're doing this right without combat logs, so if you can provide those that'd be greatly appreciated.

    One thing to keep in mind though: naked, with no talents, you have enough energy regen to keep Shuffle up 100% of the time and Guard used on CD. Of course you'd never have any Chi for anything else, which is bad, but the point needs to be made: it's primarily about skill, not gear. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to belittle you or call you a scrub: as Yorgl said pretty much every Brewmaster goes through this. I know I did, I had my healers complaining at me for ages until I actually figured it all out.

    So really, I'd imagine the reason you're not at 100% Shuffle uptime (or as good as) is not because you occasionally get parried Keg Smashes: you may be using your T30 healing talents too much, or Purifying Stagger too often.

    Until you get your Shuffle uptime sorted, I'd suggest not worrying about your T30 healing talents at all. Healing is the job of the healers after all; any healing you do is a nice bonus. Furthermore, try only purifying once you hit Heavy stagger (when the debuff goes red). Moderate stagger is healable, and Light stagger is nothing to worry about at all. Shuffle uptime is much more important than purifying Moderate or Light staggers.

    Once you get Shuffle uptime down, then you can start using Purify a bit more. Get rid of Moderates if you can afford to (some fights won't allow this, but you'll figure out which ones those are easily enough). Once you get the Purifying balance down whilst keeping Shuffle up 100%, then think about throwing in some Chi Waves.

    As a final note, just to be sure: don't bother with Breath of Fire. Not worth it at all.

    Any more questions, feel free to throw them our way. If you have combat logs, that'd be lovely if you want further analysis. Good luck with tanking!

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Kisho View Post
    YDon't get me wrong, I'm not trying to belittle you or call you a scrub: as Yorgl said pretty much every Brewmaster goes through this. I know I did, I had my healers complaining at me for ages until I actually figured it all out.
    I know i took less dmg in the beginning of our raid then our warrior tank (with dodge cap and all haste with power strike because old asc sucked.)
    It stopped when we switched for a DK as other tank tho.

    So Brews are not in a bad place here. But as you said yourself you just dont have any room for anything else then shuffle, guard, pb.

    For the op:
    You say you can keep Shuffle 70% and more up most the time ike its something to be proud of. Iam sorry to bring it to you but 70% is kinda horrible if you already feel you get too much dmg (ofc it highly depends om the fight too but if you tank most the time being around 7x% hurts you.)
    And no 7.5% more expertise wont magically push that to 90%+ where it should be.
    It means for ~30% of the fight time you have 20% less parry and get 20% more dmg straight into the face.
    It cant hurt to mention it once more: Shuffle is so much important for your tanking
    Without shuffle you are barely more then a Rogue with -25% dmg up all the time.

    So get it up in the 90% or high 8x%.
    Last edited by Asmalya; 2013-02-08 at 10:35 AM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Kisho View Post
    You'd get more chi from getting more haste, rather than more expertise. Sure, keg smash parries suck, but they don't happen often enough to warrant 15% expertise, especially when you're still gearing up. Your haste is relatively low too, so you should really look into getting more of that: gem for it, enchant for it, reforge for it, etc.
    That's what I've been doing. I should have said this from the start, but I've played since vanilla, and I know which resources to go to, like EJ, to make sure I'm doing shit somewhat right. I can't afford to reforge for more haste right now because I can't switch around my reforges or otherwise I drop below 7.5% expertise.

    Like for example, the math on EJ shows you can't take Ascension until you hit at least 7k haste. You are at 5.5k, but you have that talent instead of Power Strikes. Do you find it better for energy regen overall that it's okay to drop Power Strikes for?

    You should also get some professions. I recommend Jewelcrafting and Blacksmithing: Jewelcrafting is incredibly versatile, as is Blacksmithing, and they work well together (JC has two epic gems, BS has two extra gem slots). Also in 5.2 Blacksmiths will be able to make amazing weapons, so that'll help you gear up.
    Professions are on my to-do list, but RL is getting in the way of actually starting on that. I probably will this weekend.

    All that said, the main thing a Monk tank needs to do is learn how to use active mitigation correctly. Unfortunately we can't know if you're doing this right without combat logs, so if you can provide those that'd be greatly appreciated.
    I had it up over 80% of the time on most fights, but on Will, where I am taking a shitton of damage, it was at 68.5ish% I can't really know if that's accurate considering Will doesn't appear for a little bit and I don't really keep Shuffle up during the 5-6 waves of adds at the start.

    One thing to keep in mind though: naked, with no talents, you have enough energy regen to keep Shuffle up 100% of the time and Guard used on CD. Of course you'd never have any Chi for anything else, which is bad, but the point needs to be made: it's primarily about skill, not gear. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to belittle you or call you a scrub: as Yorgl said pretty much every Brewmaster goes through this. I know I did, I had my healers complaining at me for ages until I actually figured it all out.
    Well I am not that bad. I've had shuffle up in heroics for over a minute before. I know to pour most if not all of my chi into it, it's just these parries on my keg smash that I've been noticing kills me. I feel like I don't have enough chi to do anything else, like breath of fire, and in the end I just feel like the class wasn't properly designed keeping in mind these sorts of things. In 5.2, they're taking the chi costs off of like, what, 5-6 spells? Afaicr, the three healing talents, Lust and Karma? Anyway, point being I feel like the devs are aware about chi shortage in at least one spec. Not really using that as an excuse, I am just saying that I've tanked as every class and I've never had this kind of problem with a resource before.

    You say you can keep Shuffle 70% and more up most the time ike its something to be proud of.
    That wasn't being implied at all. If I thought it was okay, why would I be here asking for help?

  10. #10
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Opaqus View Post
    -Snip-
    http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear/u...er/wreckdatass 7.52/7.53% respectively. You have to get tricky and use the WW reforge model. Reforge lite will probably get you similar results.

    I'm at 6.5k haste w/ Ascension and it felt just about right on H Wind Lord 25m last night, felt pretty good for keeping Guard/Shuffle up and frequently using PB (I don't use L30 talents at all for that fight). 7K+ Haste feels like it would be overkill for the tank swaps. Still personal choice and depends what you are running, just give em all a try and see what you like.

    You really should strive for 90+% on all fights for shuffle. Your either tanking the boss or you should be spending your off tank time building it up so you can do other things with Chi when you taunt. For Will you need to be building Chi and Shuffle during the Combo for when you pick him up again, if you can't do this you need to practice the dance more which can be done in LFR.

    I'm going to veto JC and suggest Leatherworking instead. The ability to swap my Wrist and Leg enchants on the fly for a few threads between agil and stam has been really awesome. Plus you can make your own gear when you get the patterns.

    If possible get some logs to post that will let people go into more detail, but for sure you need to get that shuffle uptime improved on all fights, everything else is secondary (going without 20% shuffle and 20% extra parry for 30% of a fight will result in a huge damage taken difference).

    I don't know if I'd bother spending VP on blues unless you were capped, work on unlocking Shieldwall and buy their armor (and maybe a trinket but Xuen + LFR Terror or Bottle are fine). The 476 BP's and gloves are easy to make and cheap on most servers too.

    Oh I lol'd at your name =P

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  11. #11
    As I understood it, Monk tanks need a lot of work in this area. They seem to take lots of damage compared to other tank classes and sometimes their damage tends to be spikier than Blood DK's.

    Not sure if 5.2 has addressed some of these issues though.

  12. #12
    Warchief Clevername's Avatar
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    What Kisho said but short answer more haste, imo also i'd dump powerstrikes for ascension.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-08 at 07:52 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Blah337 View Post
    As I understood it, Monk tanks need a lot of work in this area. They seem to take lots of damage compared to other tank classes and sometimes their damage tends to be spikier than Blood DK's.

    Not sure if 5.2 has addressed some of these issues though.
    Well we don't have those massive health pools like DK's and it is a much more proactive class as per mitigation.

  13. #13
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blah337 View Post
    As I understood it, Monk tanks need a lot of work in this area. They seem to take lots of damage compared to other tank classes and sometimes their damage tends to be spikier than Blood DK's.
    No it's usually the result of poor play since the class has a rather unforgiving skill cap. Looking at H Blade Lord and N Empress (pretty even tank swaps) I took less "Healing Taken" than our plate tank and the two top heals on me were self heals (Guard + Expel Harm).

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by SurrealNight View Post
    Stuff
    That website is amazing. Thanks! The advice is great, and I appreciate the compliment, haha.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by SurrealNight View Post
    No it's usually the result of poor play since the class has a rather unforgiving skill cap. Looking at H Blade Lord and N Empress (pretty even tank swaps) I took less "Healing Taken" than our plate tank and the two top heals on me were self heals (Guard + Expel Harm).
    That makes more sense then. Despite that, it seems a bit unfair then that Monks get unforgiving mitigation mechanics while other tanks (I'm talking to you Blood DKs!) have very flexible rotations for the most part.

  16. #16
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    I'm ok with that fact personally and actually have retired my DK to play my BrM this expansion and loving it so far, even filling the MT role of a guild that had no intention of recruiting a Monk. Makes sense that the tank class they add after the game is out for years has a higher skill cap since it should keep the seasoned players entertained.

    The issue I have is new players to the tier (I have no idea the #'s that picked up WoW because of MoP) and new players to tanks weren't really given any sense that this would be a challenging class to play. So you have all these new Monk's barrel rolling head first into a ton of damage thinking it wouldn't be any harder than a pally or DK to do OK at. Also I'm not saying that Monk's are all that much harder to be a "Good" player at, just that the average or less players are going to be punished a lot more severely than other classes with more innate armor or HP.

    Though from the last "what tank do you like" thread it seems the most hate is for Bear's right now, never played one so dunno there.

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  17. #17
    To add to what everyone else has been saying, you're missing enchants on your chest and cloak, and you don't have a belt buckle socket. At least in the gear you have on in your armory.

    If you're mainly a brewmaster, and that's what you're brought to your raid to do, I wouldn't gem mainly for agility. I'd gem primarily haste until you're comfortable with your levels of energy regen, and then go into crit.

  18. #18
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asmalya View Post
    I know i took less dmg in the beginning of our raid then our warrior tank (with dodge cap and all haste with power strike because old asc sucked.)
    It stopped when we switched for a DK as other tank tho.

    So Brews are not in a bad place here. But as you said yourself you just dont have any room for anything else then shuffle, guard, pb.

    For the op:
    You say you can keep Shuffle 70% and more up most the time ike its something to be proud of. Iam sorry to bring it to you but 70% is kinda horrible if you already feel you get too much dmg (ofc it highly depends om the fight too but if you tank most the time being around 7x% hurts you.)
    And no 7.5% more expertise wont magically push that to 90%+ where it should be.
    It means for ~30% of the fight time you have 20% less parry and get 20% more dmg straight into the face.
    It cant hurt to mention it once more: Shuffle is so much important for your tanking
    Without shuffle you are barely more then a Rogue with -25% dmg up all the time.

    So get it up in the 90% or high 8x%.

    How is "I can't keep shuffle up more than 70% of the time because keg smash will get parried" come across as being proud they can keep it up 70% of the time? It looks like the OP knows that it isn't right and is asking for help. And you are putting words in their mouth to insult them rather than help them.
    Last edited by Freia; 2013-02-08 at 10:58 PM.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blah337 View Post
    That makes more sense then. Despite that, it seems a bit unfair then that Monks get unforgiving mitigation mechanics while other tanks (I'm talking to you Blood DKs!) have very flexible rotations for the most part.
    This is why I love my brewmaster. I wouldn't say the skill cap is unforgiving, but if you don't have shuffle up as much as possible and weaving guards in when you see fit, you will get absolutely wrecked. It is one of the few classes where you will be rewarded for doing things right, and notice when you don't. Fights like Will of the Emperor and Gara'jal and Windlord are types of fights where we can really shine. Granted, the other tank in our group is a few ilvls lower than I am (and our last run was new to the Will tank dance), but for most fights I'm taking anywhere from 40-75% of the damage that he's taking.

    In the right hands, a brewmaster can be a powerful weapon for any raid group, and we provide a lot of flexibility and options for those around us.

    @ the parried keg smash, hasn't it been determined that it's only a loss of a GCD and 8 energy IIRC? In the grand scheme of things, if you follow that up with a jabx2 (or jabx1 if its the start of the fight with PS) then BoK to apply shuffle I don't see that as a very large issue at all...
    Last edited by NRL1515; 2013-02-08 at 10:46 PM.
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  20. #20
    The Patient
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    I really don't get the big deal in getting a parried KS. If a parried KS was the reason why you wiped, then you're probably doing it wrong and not having enough stored energy/chi was the reason why you died. Any two tank fights give you ample opportunity to get a high shuffle since you're not PB'ing and you can generally be behind the boss with the raid/melee so you can't miss. As for single tank fights, a missed KS at the beginning of the encounter doesn't mean anything. The healers aren't doing anything so they'll just have to heal >20% harder for a couple of seconds instead of discussing the weather and how their day was.

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